Author Topic: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing  (Read 2302 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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     First of all, let's establish that neither Mike nor myself are experts who know all there is to know about the manufacture of BP.  However, we have written process plans for a combined 80 years, so we know how to organize the information necessary to qualify this, yet to be collected information, into a straight forward tutorial on this subject worthy of placement in the Stickies of this board.  

     Our goal is to know a lot about this process by studying it and gathering ideas via 3 different sources which are books, comments of experienced makers on this board and specific sites on the NET.  The second part of our goal is to safely make and successfully use our home manufactured powder.  We will be gathering supplies needed over the next 6 months or so and making some of the basic, simple tools needed.

     We encourage anyone with first hand knowledge of how you make BP safely to please post some info on the subject, covering as many of the operations of your process as you can to take a bit of the mystery out of this manufacturing process.  Photos are always appreciated.

     Mike and I will start this off with a few of the reasons for making BP  If there are no posts from members with experience, this will be a very short thread.  General  and Specific questions are encouraged as they might bring forth good info from our membership.  

Our first question is:  How do you know your ingredients are good enough?

Mike and Tracy


This 42 Pdr. Banded Seacoast Rifle is fired several times per year at Fort Fisher in Kure Beach, North Carolina from Shepard's Battery,on the left flank of the land face, adjacent to the Cape Fear River, first to feel the shock of the Federal assault in January of 1865.  Using 5 to 7 pounds of BP, each round costs approx. $80.  




Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dan610324

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2010, 01:41:46 PM »
first of all you need a tumbler with lead balls to wet mix the ingredients
is the ingredients very fine powder when you buy it ??

are you going to press the bp to cakes before drying ??  this method will probably give the best result

you must make a teflon or nylon mill to crush the cakes if you are going to use that method . ok the parts could be cast from wheel balancing weights also
just be totally sure that no parts can make any sparks

a rough pre crushing can be done in a hudraulic press

preferably not any steel parts in it at all , the 2 rolls that makes the actual crushing could be made from bronze with a cross hatched surface (dont think thats the correct term , but I hope you understand)

the distance (gap) between the 2 rolls should be adjustable from 1/4" to 1/64"

and of course sieves in different sizes

the difficult part here will be the electric motor , the best would be to have it hand cranked to not have any  source of ignition at all .

the sulphur and salpeter wouldnt be any problem , there the manufacturer must have a quality control and be able to give you the exact info about it .
but the charcoal is more difficult , some say it should be made from willow branches .

this is just a few ideas , you will probably get a lot of more ideas from other members
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2010, 03:55:38 PM »
I knew a fellow in H.S. who mixed a bathtub full with a shovel and then screened it with a window screen.  Don't like to think what could have happened if it had gone off.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder--WARNING: Some philosophy here
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2010, 04:47:14 PM »
While black powder today costs about three times what it did when I first bought it, I think the economics of producing at home need to be examined critically before assuming it will cost less to make it yourself. 

This is obviously a suggestion that you include the value of your labor in the equation.  Now if you are retired or your labor doesn't produce an outside income, making BP with it gives your labor value.  But if you are earning an income, then I have to ask if it is not more efficient to work a little overtime to pay for commercially made powder.  Yes, you are working for the government and welfare cases half the time, but you can figure that into the equation.  It may turn out that making your own is a money losing proposition or a break even proposition, but that may be OK if the goal is not just saving money.

But you really should do the math to see what the facts are so you can evaluate the risk versus return of this enterprise.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2010, 06:33:47 PM »

  Sorry Dan, but I feel we should dispatch an answer to Cat Wisperer's 'straw man argument' first.  From our initial statements you could easily tell that we believed that, with study, and some honest effort, that BP could be safely made, in small batches, by careful and safety-minded adults.  Unless this is just a random, innocent thought which popped into Tim's head as his fingers hovered over the keyboard, what he wrote here is what could be called a classic, 'Straw Man Arguement'. 

     Instead of arguing against our premise directly with logical statements backed by fact, he has created a "Straw man" or grossly oversimplified version of our basic premise which he then easily attacks, and destroys, because the 'straw man argument' is so weak and stupid sounding.

     This was the statement he made:  "I knew a fellow in H.S. who mixed a bathtub full  with a shovel and then screened it with a window screen.  Don't like to think what could have happened if it had gone off."  Let's take Tim's anecdotal story apart and see where the inherent fallacy lies.

     First,  this fellow was in High School, and therefore did not have a body of adult experiences upon which to base his judgment in matters large and small.
     Second,  "he mixed a bathtub full",  This is so obviously stupid given the extreme destruction which this amount could cause.
     Third,  The oversimplification continues by not telling us about what exact chemicals he used or quantities of each, nor specifying the material of the shovel and the window screen is obviously silly, because who wants only ffffG powder?

     Finally the attack and destruction of the "Straw Man Arguement" follows.  It's very easy in this case, because the argument is so obviously defective, that is folds like a 'house of cards', or, in this case, 'Blows Sky High' as his last statement indicates; "Don't like to think what could happened if it had gone off".  He nay not actually have negative feelings toward our contention that BP can be safely made at home, but if he does, he hopes that the total destruction of the 'Straw Man Argument' will cast lots of doubt about our basic contention as well.  That's the way these things work.  FYI   T&M   Tim is intelligent enough to know that this is all for the sake of argument and that Mike and I think Tim is a good and likable guy.  He is almost always good, but if you let him mass his artillery he can be very, very, very BAD.


     Dan,    You have taken the shotgun approach.  Give us a day or so to go through all that and organize those important points and suggestions into something logical.  Thanks very much; lots of good stuff there.

     George,   O.K. George, it's not the money; it's the thrill of personal victory that we get when we can say, as George Peppard did, many times in those classic, A-Team episodes, "I love it when a plan comes together".  You got us on that one.  In fact, it will probably cost you more to make BP yourself, if you consider the time you will have in the actual "making" process.  However, most of us, I believe, will be doing this as an unpaid hobby activity which creates a product which is very useful in a related area, that of producing data on our chronograph screen by measurement of the external ballistics of projectiles made after work and propelled by BP, a propellant produced by exertions occurring during the pursuit of the first hobby, that of safely making BP at home at less than one-half the cost of commercial BP.

Anybody out there really ever do this stuff??

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline RocklockI

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2010, 07:14:47 PM »
This is a good post ! I am in favor of the Recipie of Marcus Graecus the earliest formal 100 /33 /12 .

As I would like to duplicate a Morko era powder . From the reading I've done it would probably a a 'serpintine ' powder rather than corned


Tracy I have asked for and recieved some assistance from some friends of mine . It will arrive safley !

My best charcoal but only a small portion !





eta Tracy and I both know an elderly gentleman named Hal C. He is still alive ,a retired WWII vet .

At one time he used to work in a Black Powder factory . He said they wore white cotton jumpsuits and nothing else .

The jumpsuits had no pockets (for anything sparky to get in there) He would wade in the stuff up to his knees while mixing it with wooden paddles .

The walls of the sheds were just tacked on so if/when it all blew up the boards could just be tacked back on .  ........ :o

I remember thinking "Hal ,this up to your knees stuff is some joke right ?" ..... it was no joke
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2010, 07:30:22 PM »
HERE is a really long thread about making BP at home.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline KABAR2

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2010, 07:57:04 PM »
Well I have spoken about this in the past, a friend of mine back in Hi-school who was into chemistry
and knew I was into guns asked me one day about the formula for black powder ...... one thing led to another
our first experiments was with a rather medieval blend,  Living in NY you were allowed to purchase black powder
pistols as long as you did not have powder, ball, and flints or caps for it,  ::) at 16 I had both a repro 1851 36 navy
and a 44 Remington 1858 repro we tested the blend in the 36 cal. and it shot very well.... BUT it was dirty powder,
I actually had some sulfur deposits in the bore,  so back to the drawing board and back to the books.... many books...

from these we started mixing our ingredients wet set them in a 2x4 frame with a plywood insert this was placed in the
crawl space in the basement with an old fashioned screw jack for jacking up houses on top of it we would check this
every so often and when dry we would remove the frame and break up the cakes by hand in an earlier post I mentioned
adding graphite to the mix when making the cakes... I was wrong we added it when breaking it up and screening it,
our next test session we used the 44 Remington and found it to be a much cleaner burn, there was an old Impala abandoned
in the woods  the trunk lid had 6 holes in it in a 5 or 6 inch group...  unfortunately my chemist friend had other plans with
the powder and I stopped my relationship with him before things took a turn for the worse.... recreational shooting was
one thing ..... destructive use was another.... as it turned out he was also into drugs fortunately that got him into enough
trouble that he didn't have time for other pursuits. All in all we made about 2 pounds of powder could I make it again?
Yes .... will I ?  I don't have the time and I am not shooting anything that large or so often to take this course,  I will however
watch this thread with interest. 
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Victor3

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2010, 10:53:06 PM »
 Oh no... Another hair-brained scheme from those Colorado cannon guys. Weren't fancy mortar projectiles enough for this year?  ;D

 Think you're gonna save enough over store bought BP to pay for your time investment and the stuff required to make it? Ha!

 Kinda like the gardening I do every year. A potato I grow prolly costs $10. Upside down plants? Preposterous (but I don't care).



 In other words, go for it!  ;)

 A friend of mine (now passed away, but not from an explosion) used to make much of the powder for his CW group's cannons and small arms. On a larger scale than most do it, he saved $$$ over buying it and also enjoyed the process. I once asked him about the safety of making BP. He replied, "Pffff. It's one of the safest pyro compounds you can make." Having worked in special effects and manufacturing fireworks, he knew some about such things.

 I still have a few pounds of these BP pucks he made, along with some he'd processed into various grades. As good as Goex as far as I can tell...



 Far as I'm concerned, anything one can do to be more self sufficient is worth learning.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 02:08:39 AM »
No 'falicy' in the statement; agree with you, he was immature, headstrong, and a bit 'off'.
He did the ususal mix of saltpeter, charcoal and sulpher.  Don't know how he weighed it. 
It was a mere mixture, nothing special in granulation, and he used it for making bombs.
(And yes, he made the national news at the end of his life 15 years later.)
I made SMALL batches of a few ounces with the chemicals from the drug store.


....
      This was the statement he made:  "I knew a fellow in H.S. who mixed a bathtub full  with a shovel and then screened it with a window screen.  Don't like to think what could have happened if it had gone off."  Let's take Tim's anecdotal story apart and see where the inherent fallacy lies.

     First,  this fellow was in High School, and therefore did not have a body of adult experiences upon which to base his judgment in matters large and small.
     Second,  "he mixed a bathtub full",  This is so obviously stupid given the extreme destruction which this amount could cause.
     Third,  The oversimplification continues by not telling us about what exact chemicals he used or quantities of each, nor specifying the material of the shovel and the window screen is obviously silly, because who wants only ffffG powder?
...
Anybody out there really ever do this stuff??

Mike and Tracy

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline rmagill

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 07:00:54 AM »
If you go to passfire.com  the pyrotechnic guys there are all about making their own powder. They have some pretty in depth discussions on it.
Bob

Offline JeffG

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 08:32:22 AM »
Quote
I think the economics of producing at home need to be examined critically before assuming it will cost less to make it yourself.  


I know it's easy to go poking holes in other people's fun, so I won't; and please don't take it like that: An explosives tech once said to me, " all of the experts, are dead."  I am not sure all of the implications of that statement, but I think they are pretty ominous.  First of all, most of the people engaged in this board seem to be methodical, safe, well thought out people, and would do well with this subject. You really  can't control who is is listening, lurking,or only half reading the material.
 
I am a career cop and I have seen some less than ideal situations with BP. One of the most recent was a 23 year old man that was using a plastic rock tumbler in an upstairs apartment to make BP, 20 feet from his infant son's bedroom., and storing half pound charges, for fireworks in the kitchen. He a good guy, not a maniac, or drug user or really for that matter, even a dumbass.  He just did not think the situation through...

Please as you discuss this, talk about the obvious:

Blast zone, if something would go wrong, who at the very minimum is going to be hurt or killed? The man in the saltpeter photo has suburban neighbors within 200 yards. I betcha there is a hotshot lawyer living in one of those houses. His windows get busted by an accidental detonation, and the consequenses might be pretty crappy.

What would your homeowner's insurance carrier think of this venture.

Protective equipment, static electricity, etc.  Theft proof/blast proof storage...


Obviously the reason BP is getting expensive is danger to manufacturers and shippers, and undeserved bad reputation.  But let's remind ourselves, this stuff is a true explosive, too.

I just can't help but think that this a good discussion only in a private-limited- access thread for elite individuals who know what they are talking about.  We have plenty of them on this board.


 

Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Home Manufacture of Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2010, 10:51:14 AM »
  Bob, we found that you need to be a member to get any info from Passfire and that Passfire is closed to new memberships.  No info is now available from Passfire.

Gary, if I had charcoal lumps that looked like those, I would put a guard on them as well.  Where do these friends live?

GGaskill,   LOTS of good info there!  Sounds like it's very well done too.  I like the brass mill cylinders.

KABAR2,   Very similar to my early efforts, Allen.  I remember that we removed sections of small streams with the stuff to look for crayfish before the water flow resumed.  Small crayfish make excellent trout bait.

Victor3,   We have officially changed our basic Premise.  This is the new one:  Anyone who can grow tomatoes upside down, can surely make BP rightside up!  Those cylinder pucks certainly are different, but as long as your crushing equipment is of the proper shape, and I'm quite sure his was, why not?  I like your last line of text best of all!  "anything one can do to be more self sufficient is worth learning."  Mike and I agree and we think this is the proper time to reveal the real reason for making BP at home.  Commercial BP supplies could dry up OVERNIGHT in the current political climate.  You think it couldn't happen; just look at the lengthening list of chemicals that are no longer for sale on the fireworks sites or still are, but only in ridiculously tiny amounts with attendant frequency of purchase rules for further control.  We follow this stuff continuously and are heeding the warnings.  

Thanks for the info Tim K.  I suspected it was something like that.  Somehow I always thought that you would be showing us some of those upside down tomato plants, rather than Victor.  It seems like a kinder and gentler way to grow them.  You Do have some, don't you?

JeffG,   Thanks for this very important reminder.  Just so you won’t worry about us; we have no plans whatsoever to actually make BP in or near our homes or the business.  You have to be smarter than dirt before you do this stuff.  If you will look at the caption on the photo carefully, you will find that it merely points out what 70 pounds of Saltpeter looks like, that’s all.  Good reminder to be safe and for the 4 th time, process and store very small amounts only!!  Thanks Jeff.

     Didn't one of our long-time members tell us about his production of BP 3 or 4 years ago?  Who was that?  Bill or Bob something?  As I recall it was very well laid out info and resulted in high strength, 'corned' powder.  His pucks were about 1/2" or 3/4" high by 3' dia. if I remember correctly.  I have searched the board under 7 or 8 keywords and can't find anything.

M&T
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Making Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2010, 02:08:59 PM »
     Who says my memory is going?  Still good it is.  The following in quotes is a post from 4+ years ago by Will Bison who made about 200 pounds of BP per year to feed his two full size cannon.  He has a lot of practical info about the subject below.  Bill if you see this could you possibly give us a brief update on your BP making?  His last post is in April of this year, so we are pretty sure he is still out there.  Mike and I remember that he offered some good advice and had some intelligent questions when we were doing the thread, 'How to Build a Rifling Machine from A to Z'.


272       Black Powder Forums / Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon Sponsored by Seacoast Artillery / Re: more smoke from powder on: December 29, 2006, 03:14:39 PM

Will Bison writes:

"Just a few other comments. I make my own Willow charcoal since it grows wild on my property. Takes about one pound of propane to render two pounds of charcoal. The KNO3 I get in 50# bags from my Ag supply company at about $1.30 a pound. It's marked at 99+ % pure and sulphur is also an Ag product. A rancher friend gave me 300# of sulphur. So if I count electricity, propane, gas and other odds and ends I think I,m in at less than two bucks a pound.

The charcoal is the key, bad charcoal makes bad powder. I spent the better part of one Summer just learning how to make good charcoal. I'll say that charcoal is 90% of the process, the rest is easy. The purity of the KNO3 and sulphur is of little value if the charcoal is bad.

I also wanted a good tumbler/ball mill so I had to build it. It is used to tumble brass, mix paint, mill powder and a host of other things. The tumbler will turn any canister from four inches to 18 inches in diameter and 18 inches in length. I can have up to seven stations turning at any given time. I also do some lapidary work so it works great for polishing rocks.

I constructed a screen box wiith variable screens, up to six sizes at a time. It sits on springs and utilzes an orbital sander as the source of vibration. It also serves to separate placer gold when I hit some good color. It screens the corned powder into various grades after the corn has been tumbled and polished.

The corning is accomplised after the pucks of powder are dry (about 227 grams each). I made some hardwood plates with a cross hatch pattern milled in. The plates and a puck are loaded into the hydraulic press and crushed. This ain't a scientific operation, it's all by feel. The pucks are inserted in a cloth bag and then between the plates, this is to contain the powder when the grain breaks. The crushed grain then goes into the tumbler for several hours and then goes in the screen box.

For artillery use (which is about 200 pounds a year in my case), I eliminate the sulphur and use the 80-20 mix. It's not quite as powerful but sooooo easy to make. When corned I make it just a bit larger than GOEX Cannon (screen size dictated). Works great. But it won't smoke quite as well and the ignition temp is about 150 degrees C higher than GOEX. For the smoke I add an equal weight of flour on top of the charge.

For normal rifle shooting I'll stick with good old GOEX. Making powder for the average rifle shooter is a wast of time. For artillery buffs, pyrotechnicians and rocket folks, it is a consideration."

FYI,

M&T
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Victor3

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Re: Making Black Powder with the Emphasis on Safety
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2010, 01:23:26 AM »
 M&T,

 I think JeffG is right, and his concerns are why I'd never make BP at home in anything but very small quantities, just to experiment. Glad you're planning on a safe location.

 My friend who made BP in large quantities in his garage was a nut (for many reasons) and I frequently told him so. I watched him do some of the processing on his home made equipment, but when it came time to crush the pucs once, it was "Oh dear, look at the time. I'd better get home before dinner."

 Couple years before he passed he had a small fire on his roof, and later a visit from the Fire Marshal who he let inside his garage. Shortly thereafter, the ATF showed up with a search warrant. Fortunately by that time he'd long since stopped making BP and the much more dangerous 4th of July stuff he played with. They searched his property, carting off various chemicals he still had on hand (wasn't much). None were mixed into illegal compounds, but he gladly agreed with them that they should be disposed of.

 He was shaken up by all this and didn't even want to keep his books on the subject anymore. He gave them to me, and I've even had my doubts about keeping them in a post 9/11 world.

 Anywhoo, carefully consider all aspects of whatever you plan to do.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2010, 02:21:58 AM »
     I guess it was too much to expect that this thread would continue to go in a positive direction. Our participation in this thread is at an end.

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2010, 03:33:47 AM »
     I guess it was too much to expect that this thread would continue to go in a positive direction. Our participation in this thread is at an end.

T&M

Wait a minute!  If each of the safety issues is addressed, it IS positive.  Each person will have a different perspective; showing the issues is needed to bring awareness to the folks who will 'wing it' and skip the safety precautions.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline Will Bison

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2010, 07:54:26 AM »
Hey All;

Just read through this thread.

Mike & Tracy; Your next project should be a kiln for reducing wood to charcoal. The process takes a little hands on work to get the bugs out of the system. The only other way to get good charcoal is buying it from specialty houses at outrageous prices. The secret is just practice and paying attention to small detail.

The "How safe is it" question is best answered by understanding what will or won't set off BP. The answer is HEAT, elevating BP quickly to ignition temperature is the only thing that will set it off. If heated slowly it simply decomposes. Consider that it was used as the explosive filler in shells, it had to survive the impulse of firing and the shock of impact against hard targets.

One question for you, did you buy Potassium Nitrate or Sodium Nitrate? I ask because your bags are marked from Chile.

Jump in with the questions as they arise.

Regards, Bill

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2010, 07:55:23 AM »
M&T,
After reading your post you have researched this subject far more than most would or have, but then from what I have seen
this is what the two of you have become known for, do not let the negative comments stall this thread, the one suggestion
of an area for members only on this topic was not out of place I am a moderator on a forum that has such a place for members
only it is set up mainly to discourage the young one's from getting ideas we set a 25 post minimum before someone could get the
pass word and join the discussion, most young one's don't have the patience to post 25 time to get in.... and if they did get in
they'd find it boring.... from my limited knowledge on the subject and knowing the caliber of the people looking to create a thread
that allows the safe production of BP is a valuable tool to have here.

I think the photo with the burlap sacks threw many people as to the quanities being produced in one batch....

When you come down to it much of what we do with cannons & mortars has some risk to it, machining a barrel can have risk if the chuck
is not tight enough, casting bronze in the back yard can have risk, but living has risk also, those who hang their hats here accept the risks
that come with this hobby and everyone here intends to reduce the risks through practicing safe operating methods, So please continue....

Allen <><
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Zulu

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2010, 08:05:19 AM »
M&T,
I'd like you to continue also.  Although I have not contributed to this thread, I follow it with great interest.
Zulu
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Offline armorer77

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 09:17:41 AM »
I would also like to see this thread continue . I have some experience with flammable compounds , Marine AT demo , an old Navy SEAL who thought I was teachable . An old pyro who taught several compounds I no longer make . Chlorate powders , and some found in WW2 FM's . This is a valuable information sourse that I would hate to see go away . I have some old books to dig out with other powder formulas that now may deserve more study . Let us keep the information moving . I accept no responsibility for idiots . Armorer77

Offline XxLT250RxX

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 05:28:24 PM »
M&T,
I'd like you to continue also.  Although I have not contributed to this thread, I follow it with great interest.
Zulu

+1  What he said.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 06:48:56 PM »
After todays Blackpowder shooting I will continue to explore making the stuff .

I am approching this with an eye towards making what you can with whats avalibale ! I have some Potasium Nitrate , but am going to try a stump remover and dusting sulffer 90% pure , I think the balance is bentonite as a binder .... we'll see how it works .

As soon as the Dan gun is done ....it's on !

As we know you guys can rag on ME all you want !  ;D  ,yea , yea , I know nobodies ragging just being "responsible and safe " but the title of this thread DID mention SOMETHING ABOUT SAFTEY ....I'm still gonna do it . I'll report the news as needed or desired .

If you are a morron ,or a kid then you should really look somewhere else for ...muckraking  , this stuff will just be kinda boring . If you are bent on self destruction , well then , there are Jihadi sites to explore .

Oh yea big booms and big responsibilitys ,some can handle them and those that dont think they can ....probably should not . A man has to know his limits !

Gary

I shall press on and make the stuff , there is no doubt of that . Dont worry "I'll be extra carefull "

So I DONT NEED TO HEAR IT !  ;D  If you dont want to do it , then DONT ! Dont rag on us that do .





Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2010, 02:13:10 AM »
serpentine powder is more dangerous to make as it must be done dry

to do that in an semi safe way would be to start making a mortar and pestle from wheel balancing weights
use that to grind all 3 ingredients to a flour like powder first
carefully wash the mortar and pestle after each ingredient

finaly you mix the ingredients in the mortar,  NO MORE THAN 10 GRAMS IN EACH BATCH

EYE PROTECTION , WELDING GLOVES , THICK CLOTHES
OF COURSE DO IT OUTSIDE IN A SUITABLE PLACE OF YOUR GARDEN THAT IT CANT SET ANYTHING ON FIRE IF IT WOULD GO WOOSCHH

no other powder close to the working area

its a fun experiment , but remember that its a very low quality of black powder

it leaves very heavy residues in the bore
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2010, 04:17:46 AM »
yea I'm already changing my mind on that . Too much charcoal ! I will make a corned powder .

As the charcoal is the lightest and hardest to come by I'm not going crazy with the charcoal % .

ALMOST forgot I made another batch last night ! Gotta go see it , it's out in my chiminea .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2010, 06:29:42 AM »
It was a bust the tin foil melted and the whole thing burned up ..... :o

So I went to ACE Hardware and grabed an empty paint can . It shoulod work better ! Next batch is underway now .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2010, 06:52:10 AM »
Gary, The paint can is what I have always used. I stack it full of new growth willow up to 3/4" in diameter vertically and heat it on a Coleman stove.
Max

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2010, 08:41:15 AM »
 ;D




I have some near lab grade Potasium coming but I want to see just how good the gardening store stuff was ! And I will .

I'll have to go cut some willows . What I made B4 is Poplar  , what is sizzlling away is a flowering crabaplle type treeage .

Here it is now ! :D


yes it was convenient as well  8)

Colman stove check good idea thanks .

"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2010, 01:42:42 PM »
OK guys a serious request for actual information was asked by professionals in the cannon business. They are big boys and understand the potential dangers involved.

So if you have nothing to add to the discussion stay out of it. In other words contribute to the knowledge base or keep your opinions of why they should to yourself.

I personally would never attempt it but that's me and my personal position. What others chose to do is their business not mine.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Black Powder, A Compilation of Safety Information on Processing
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2010, 01:50:17 PM »
I think if you look at the last half dozen or so posts that the nature of this thread has been spot on.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)