Author Topic: Garys Blackpowder making thread  (Read 2939 times)

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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2010, 03:07:42 PM »
George you are correct . BUT B4 I do that I must prove to myself that I have it in me to do it .

If this little diversion proves to be worthy at all    , then a ball mill is in my future . ;D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Eyes Of Death

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2010, 03:17:31 PM »
Rocklock you can regrind the powder. It will just take even longer to break it down to a fine dust. My powder fills like powdered graphite when put on your finger tip and rolled with your thumb. It's fine you need a ball mill. You can make good powder. Remember way back when they had prisoners doing the grinding. Grind the powder or off with your head!

Offline Victor3

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2010, 01:20:22 AM »
 I found some old proportions, even a Swede one for Mr. Morko.  ;)

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2010, 05:26:49 AM »
I like that reciept 75 15 10 simple !

I made a mall mill .....from what I had on hand  ;D



Glass Ball jar a zinc ball and 2 .75cal. lead balls .

I work on it but it seems like it working  8) Its out back rattling away right now .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Eyes Of Death

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2010, 09:26:32 AM »
I have a book on black powder rocket fuel. And it gives the 75-15-10 recipe as the standard mix. It also has the recipes for more combinations of less sulfur down to 0% in 1/2% increments. I need to try some other mixes and see how they act. Your vibratory tumbler looks good to me. There are commercially available vib-mills they work on same principle.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2010, 09:15:18 PM »
 After ball milling the ingredients separately, my friend would pour them into the larger sieve shown here. It was mounted on top of a modified brass tumbler, and the powder would collect in a plastic tub below the sieve...





 He told me that the longer the ingredients were ball milled and the more times they were put through the sieve, the better the powder would turn out. He also added a spoonful or two of cabosil to the powder before running it through the sieve. Helps it flow better he said.

 I've seen similar sieves go for cheap on ebay.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2010, 04:29:46 PM »
                                                                   Don’t Forget the Sulfur!

     Most of the attention is claimed by the ingredient, charcoal, and some goes to the potassium nitrate, but the type or grade of sulfur used is little thought of.  Although black powder can be made without sulfur, almost all the BP produced in the world today for firearm and cannon useage, is made according to the standard formula, 75-15-10 (KNO3-C-S) by weight.  
     I was reading recently about the way sulfur was purified at the huge Confederate States Powder Works in Augusta, Georgia.  It seems like every question Gary, Mike and I had about sulfur was answered by Col. C. W. Rains and his powder makers back in 1863.
     The Powder Works received it’s sulfur as crude chunks of “Brimstone” directly from the mines in the southern states.  8% by weight was leaves sticks and other “earthy matter”.  Simple melting and skimming separated most of this rubbish from the crude sulfur.  Acidic compounds detrimental to finished powder remained in the sulfur.  Further refining was necessary.
    
     “The second method of refining sulfur, distillation, was more thorough and was preferred for high quality gunpowder.  When sulfur is heated to the point at which vapor forms, the first vapors condense in a fine dust commonly called “flowers of sulfur”.  Although pure, sulfur in this form is always accompanied by sulfurous and sulfuric acids and is unsuitable for gunpowder.  Once the temperature has risen, the acidic compounds are absent from the sulfur vapor, which can be condensed as pure sulfur.”

     Col. Rains copied the English, Waltham Abbey process for refining sulfur as this British Powder Works produced some of the best gunpowder in the world at that time.  

     “The sulfur was broken into small pieces. Placed in the pot, and heated.  The pipe to the dome above the lid was opened by a valve, but the lower pipe was at this time closed by another valve.  After two or three hours, a yellow vapor rose through the pipe and was collected in the dome as flowers of sulfur.  A small pipe led out at the other side of the dome through a vessel of water.  This allowed hot air to escape and captured sulfuric acid in the water.  About two hours later the vapor turned a deep iodine color, indicating that the sulfur (no longer containing sulfuric acid) was now rising out of the pot.  A valve was closed, shutting off the upper pipe and the other valve was opened, admitting the sulfur gas to the lower pipe.  At this time cold water from a vessel above was admitted to the jacket around the lower pipe.  This caused the sulfur in the lower pipe to condense and run into the iron vessel as a thick yellow liquid.  The liquid sulfur collected was allowed to cool for an hour and was then poured into molds where it soon formed a bright yellow solid.  Col. Rains stated that the sulfur in this vessel was “of a beautiful citron yellow color when cold and was entirely pure”.

     This type of sulfur is available today and can be purchased from Skylighter, Inc.  It is 99.9% pure.  
 
This is their web address:  www.skylighter.com


Mike and Tracy  






Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline armorer77

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2010, 04:59:18 PM »
Another supplier of chemicals that I have used for over 20 yrs  is Firefox Enterprises . They specialize in pyrotechnical chemicals . Armorer77

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2010, 06:09:19 PM »
"Capt Kirk"  MUst FInd bETter sulFER , MUsT kiLL BIG motHEr  lizZERD thROWinG ME aLL oVER mOunTAIN ."

This and the 67' World Book encyclipidia was all I ever knew about making BP .

"Uh JJ hold this bag of KingsFord while I get some sulfer at the Pharmacist"

"UuuhhH SIR (Drug store 1970 Charlotte NC 3:35 in the afternoon)   Could you tell me where there Sulfur is ?"

Looking over his half round glasses at me ,and up on high looking down ....... 

I'd wished it had been Judge Judy !  He said "It is right down there on the shelf son " "OK " confident in my trickery , I asked ...uhmm sir where is the Salt.......    " . He said just below the shelf with the sulfer .

That ol goober knew darn well what we were doing !  BUT after renewing my efforts at this ,I am now 100% convinced that he also knew our efforts would come to nothing .....

For the most part ....they still havn't !  :D

 

"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2010, 08:22:13 PM »
 Hey Gary,

 Was the wood you used for your charcoal dried before you cooked it?

 I noticed on Ulrich Bretscher's website that he noted "Use only well dried young branches, not more than 5 centimeters in diameter and peel off the bark."

 I'm wondering if it makes a difference.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2010, 08:48:11 PM »
Now I am using poplar . It came by the board foot for laminating sabots .

I have some branches from my backyard flowiering 'berry tree' ,they were about 1/2 to 1 inch thick .

They havent been crushed yet . but they did boil down to nice charcoal ....i think ?

TOMMORROW NIGHT WILL TELL THE TALE !  :o

I have some old friends coming up tomorrow for a little get together .

gary

 


"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2010, 10:48:15 AM »
Victor3 wrote:

“I noticed on Ulrich Bretscher's website that he noted "Use only well dried young branches, not more than 5 centimeters in diameter and peel off the bark."

 I'm wondering if it makes a difference.”

     Basically this is an answer to Victor3’s question above, but first this:  Gary, you are using the term, “Friends” quite loosely these days, are you not?  He, he, he.


                          Is Drying Really Necessary?

     In a word, No.  This morning I researched that answer and found an initial answer that was confirmed by practices of the huge Confederate Powder Works described in “Never for Want of Powder”  with multiple authors (archival researchers) and published by the University of South Carolina Press.  

     The initial answer was provided by Mr. Baddeley of the British Powder Works at Waltham Abbey.  He writes that they used alder, willow and dogwood in the production of charcoal for their gunpowder.  The Confederates used willow, alder and cottonwood, with cottonwood dominating as it was knot free and plentiful and made charcoal every bit as good as willow according to Col.Rains.

     As much as Mike and I love Ulrich Bretscher’s website about black powder, we believe the high volume producers in Augusta, Georgia knew exactly what they were doing as they produced more BP in a week than the US black powder mills today produce in 18 weeks.  

     The answer lies in this quoted section:  “If possible, the wood was cut in the Spring when the sap was running.  Branches about an inch in diameter and 3 or 4 years old were chosen and stripped of their bark immediately after being cut.  Large branches were split lengthwise.  Ideally the wood was seasoned for a few months to allow it to dry, but Baddeley stated that, “recent experience has shown that wood only lately cut and peeled, after being dissicated [sic] in a hot chamber, will make equally good Charcoal with that which has been seasoning 3 or 4 years.”  The Confederate Powder Works followed this method exactly and designed their works to efficiently allow and facilitate a duplication of Waltham Abbey methods.

     So, there you have an authoritative answer, not someone’s guesswork, but documented facts from the most experienced powdermakers of the 1830’s to 1865, a time when “gunpowder’ meant “black powder”.

Tracy and Mike
  
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2010, 11:57:31 AM »


 after being dissicated [sic] in a hot chamber, will make equally good Charcoal.

 I read this as a separate process of drying wet wood with heat in a container, then going to the next process, which would be heating the dry wood.

The 1862 and 1863 Ordnance Manuals give some very good info on making charcoal and the whole process of making gunpowder. see Chapter 9, Gunpowder, and Chapter 10, Ammunition and Military Fireworks.

Max  

Max

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2010, 04:11:49 PM »
      Hi Max,     I just reread that section and the dessication process involves the entire heating process in iron cylinders wih loose lids, 16 to an iron vessel which had the gas tube leading away from it into a dark area of the room where the flame could be observed more easily.  The drying of the green wood, the driving out of water and sap, and the carbonization were carried out with this one process.  The only thing I didn't mention before was a quality control process called sorting which was done after the iron cylinders were lifted out of the large iron vessel and lowered into cooling frames which were lowered into the canal that ran under the building.  After this rapid cooling of the charcoal, it was visually inspected and any pieces with creosote on them were cut away and tossed.  Next the batch went to the pulverizing mill.

Regards from,

Mike and Tracy, at Gary's home for the resumption of backyard festivities at bombardment meadows!  I have been cautioned twice already, so you know that my stuff works!
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2010, 07:36:12 PM »
Its stilling going ...... boom boom , bang zip and screaming bottle rockets !

Then there are Tracys ...... smoke BOMBS . And he did launch 5 gals of water three times .

It's been raining all night ,but .....hey just keep your powder dry .

Tracy stuff works alright ...... but you gotta give him the "I've got my eyes on you " hand sign now and agian ....

I'm done for the night . Gary It been great !
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2010, 10:53:58 PM »
  ...the dessication process involves the entire heating process in iron cylinders wih loose lids, 16 to an iron vessel which had the gas tube leading away from it into a dark area of the room where the flame could be observed more easily.  The drying of the green wood, the driving out of water and sap, and the carbonization were carried out with this one process. 

 That makes sense. I was thinking maybe they had to let it dry out by itself for some reason but since kilns are used to dry wood, I guess there's no reason to use two heating processes to produce charcoal.

 I wonder how wood off of my pepper tree would do? Need to trim it anyway.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline oyvind

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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2010, 11:50:25 AM »
Thanks for that Oyvind ,I like the format simple .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2010, 12:25:35 PM »
lots of interesting info there
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Squire Robin

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2010, 11:34:02 AM »
Ulrich says the secret is in the charcoal and charcoal burning is a lost art, you can't expect instant success.

IIRC half an hour incorporation in an edge runner mill for blasting powder, one or two days for sporting powder. You want a truly intimate mixing. The edge runner has a sort of crushing smearing action, but tumbling in a small wooden barrel with lignum vitae balls worked for the modern maker in Spain who supplied the powder for blowing up the full scale model of the King James Parliament on TV. His powder was hot stuff.

Of course for best sporting powder they also pressed it, causing the saltpeter to flow around the microscopic grains of the insoluble ingredients, but that was the really dangerous bit.

OTOH when the edge runner mill was introduced they banned the old water driven pestle mills as being far too dangerous, but two were given special licence as being the only source for the truly best sporting powders. I think that was pre-pressing.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2010, 01:07:17 PM »
I have no idea what an edge runner is ? Pressing it make sence .

I am not going to use any water driven pestle mills either . ;)

One to two days ? mercy ........... :o

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Squire Robin

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2010, 01:39:33 PM »
I have no idea what an edge runner is ?

Hi Gary

You use ordinary looking mill stones but edgeways on. They don't quite touch the bed so they can't strike a spark. Google 'edge runner mill' and you'll get lots of hits  ;D

bestest

Robin

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2010, 04:58:06 AM »
Not sure how much further im going to take this as ....it is clear to me it isnt going to be any real savings ,after time is figured in .

I'll make up a couple more little batches maybe half a pound of Serpintine (meal) powder for demos in Morko but thats about it ...I think .

I keep getting little bubbles when it burns and it burns kinda slow . Now I gotta go finish MY Morko .

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2010, 06:35:10 AM »
If it's any consolation Gary, Switlik mentions in pressure test article, that even as late as the 1980's the Military was still trying to resolve the issues with the purity of charcoal.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2010, 06:42:16 AM »
1980's were they tring to remake the stuff ? For howitzer ammo?
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: Garys Blackpowder making thread
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2010, 07:45:50 AM »
1980's were they tring to remake the stuff ? For howitzer ammo?

Apparently black podwer is widely used in military munitions as priming charges.  Check with M&T I believe they have a copy of the article in their archives.