Lincoln

[Gary G]

The Civil War made us the most powerful nation in the world.  Without it we'd be speaking German or Japanese.  Lincoln was right.

I doubt that! Germany without a viable Navy and without an airplane capable of flying that far was not a threat to the US. Japan was interested in Asia until we forced a war with them. Neither were threats to the US.

We would have been a free country following the advice of our founding fathers to mind our own business had Lincoln not invented the "war powers" act.

[Mohawk]

Japan decided on war. That is what they got. No nation forced them into anything. It was their decision.    And if anyone is "forced" into war....... that is called poor management on their part.  Please quit looking to whatever books you are looking at and talk to actual  persons who lived through it!!! 

[Swampman]

The Civil War made us the most powerful nation in the world.  Without it we'd be speaking German or Japanese.  Lincoln was right.

I doubt that! Germany without a viable Navy and without an airplane capable of flying that far was not a threat to the US. Japan was interested in Asia until we forced a war with them. Neither were threats to the US.

We would have been a free country following the advice of our founding fathers to mind our own business had Lincoln not invented the "war powers" act.

This is funny stuff.

[Gary G]

Japan decided on war. That is what they got. No nation forced them into anything. It was their decision.    And if anyone is "forced" into war....... that is called poor management on their part.  Please quit looking to whatever books you are looking at and talk to actual  persons who lived through it!!!  

I do believe there is much documented evidence that Roosevelt wanted war against the desires of the American people. Let's see, Roosevelt ordered a blockade against Japanese fuel supplies which would prove disastrous in Japan's Asian campaign. Roosevelt sent older of the American naval forces to the unprotected port of Honolulu. The naval commander there requested that they be moved to San Francisco. Roosevelt refused. Australia warned Roosevelt of the movement of Japanese carriers toward Hawaii. Roosevelt kept it under lids.
What does that tell you?

Similar setup as Lincoln's war when Ft. Sumter was fired upon.

Here are some sources of information:
http://mises.org/daily/216
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/denson8.html

[Mohawk]

That tells me the Commander in Chief was preparing his forces. I would do the same and would hope anyone would. Provacation is not a bomb dropping. It is movement and secrecy. Would you only fire back once a bullet hit your heart. We actually showed retraint to the contrary.

[Ga.windbreak]

Gents, please! May I remind ya'll this forum is about the WONA and this thread is about Lincoln!

Go fight the 2nd WW somewhere else!

[Gary G]

His ghost speaks the truth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zFjsAb9r7U&feature=player_embedded

[Swampman]

Lincoln knew how to save the nation and he did it.

[Ga.windbreak]

Lincoln knew how to save the nation and he did it.

Yep, his Daddy showed him how by beating up both his wives. Lincoln never forgave him yet killed some 1 million plus to keep the Union whole while also destroying the Constitutional law by which we are supposed to be governed.

[Swampman]

And it was well worth it.

[wncchester]

" She left that day knowing we were right, but still CHOSE not to believe a word we said."

Not quite. She had already said she believed you. 

What she meant, as with Swampy, was that truth didn't matter.  She had succeeded by commitmenmt to a point of view that supported her position.  Thus, and by admitting she was foolish, she simply recognised that to walk away from that view would probably have destroyed her PC career in "educated" circles.  MANY scientists KNOW evolution is a joke but if they admitted it they would be destroyed in their closed-minded university society.  Ditto in the university lock-step "the South was bad and the North was good" history departments or "man made global warming" in other sciences. People simply can't survive in "open-minded education" if they don't mindlessly follow the dominate lemmings!

[Swampman]

The South was neither good nor bad.  The North was neither good nor bad.

The only thing that mattered was saving the Union.  There is no question that if like General Lee I'd had to have made the choice, I'd have fought for the South knowing it was a bad idea.  Like him I could not have fought against my country.

Here we see how great Lincoln was.

"I was in Richmond when my Soldier fought the awful battle of Five Forks, Richmond surrendered, and the surging sea of fire swept the city. News of the fate of Five Forks had reached us, and the city was full of rumors that General Pickett was killed. I did not believe them. I knew he would come back, he had told me so. But they were very anxious hours. The day after the fire, there was a sharp rap at the door. The servants had all run away. The city was full of northern troops, and my environment had not taught me to love them. The fate of other cities had awakened my fears for Richmond. With my baby on my arm, I answered the knock, opened the door and looked up at a tall, gaunt, sad-faced man in ill-fitting clothes who, with the accent of the North, asked:

"Is this George Pickett's place?"

"Yes, sir," I answered, "but he is not here."

"I know that, ma'am," he replied, "but I just wanted to see the place. I am Abraham Lincoln."

"The President!" I gasped.

The stranger shook his head and said, "No, ma'am; no, ma'am; just Abraham Lincoln; George's old friend."

"I am George Pickett's wife and this is his baby," was all I could say. I had never seen Mr. Lincoln but remembered the intense love and reverence with which my Soldier always spoke of him.

My baby pushed away from me and reached out his hands to Mr. Lincoln, who took him in his arms. As he did so an expression of rapt, almost divine, tenderness and love lighted up the sad face. It was a look that I have never seen on any other face. My baby opened his mouth wide and insisted upon giving his father's friend a dewy infantile kiss. As Mr. Lincoln gave the little one back to me, shaking his finger at him playfully, he said:

"Tell your father, the rascal, that I forgive him for the sake of that kiss and those bright eyes."

He turned and went down the steps, talking to himself, and passed out of my sight forever, but in my memory those intensely human eyes, that strong, sad face, have a perpetual abiding place-that face which puzzled all artists but revealed itself to the intuitions of a little child, causing it to hold out its hands to be taken and its lips to be kissed."

Sally Corbell Pickett, Wife of Major General George E. Pickett, April 1865

[Ga.windbreak]

And it was well worth it.

Well since, it seems, you have no respect or loyalty to our Constitution I will leave you with this.

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom - go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" - Speech at the State House, Philadelphia, August 1, 1776

[Ga.windbreak]

The South was neither good nor bad.  The North was neither good nor bad.

The only thing that mattered was saving the Union.

Here we see how great Lincoln was.

"I was in Richmond when my Soldier fought the awful battle of Five Forks, Richmond surrendered, and the surging sea of fire swept the city. News of the fate of Five Forks had reached us, and the city was full of rumors that General Pickett was killed. I did not believe them. I knew he would come back, he had told me so. But they were very anxious hours. The day after the fire, there was a sharp rap at the door. The servants had all run away. The city was full of northern troops, and my environment had not taught me to love them. The fate of other cities had awakened my fears for Richmond. With my baby on my arm, I answered the knock, opened the door and looked up at a tall, gaunt, sad-faced man in ill-fitting clothes who, with the accent of the North, asked:

"Is this George Pickett's place?"

"Yes, sir," I answered, "but he is not here."

"I know that, ma'am," he replied, "but I just wanted to see the place. I am Abraham Lincoln."

"The President!" I gasped.

The stranger shook his head and said, "No, ma'am; no, ma'am; just Abraham Lincoln; George's old friend."

"I am George Pickett's wife and this is his baby," was all I could say. I had never seen Mr. Lincoln but remembered the intense love and reverence with which my Soldier always spoke of him.

My baby pushed away from me and reached out his hands to Mr. Lincoln, who took him in his arms. As he did so an expression of rapt, almost divine, tenderness and love lighted up the sad face. It was a look that I have never seen on any other face. My baby opened his mouth wide and insisted upon giving his father's friend a dewy infantile kiss. As Mr. Lincoln gave the little one back to me, shaking his finger at him playfully, he said:

"Tell your father, the rascal, that I forgive him for the sake of that kiss and those bright eyes."

He turned and went down the steps, talking to himself, and passed out of my sight forever, but in my memory those intensely human eyes, that strong, sad face, have a perpetual abiding place-that face which puzzled all artists but revealed itself to the intuitions of a little child, causing it to hold out its hands to be taken and its lips to be kissed."

Sally Corbell Pickett, Wife of Major General George E. Pickett, April 1865

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pickett

A legend told by Pickett's widow stated that when the Union Army marched into Richmond, she received a surprise visitor. He acted graciously and inquired whether he had found the Pickett house. Abraham Lincoln himself had come to determine the fate of an old acquaintance before the wars, and Sallie, astonished, admitted she was his wife and held out her infant for the president to cradle.[29] Lincoln historian Gerald J. Prokopowicz has called this story a "fantasy".

While I'm certainly no lover of Lincoln not even I would stoop to such drivel concerning the man; even he deserves better!

Decades after Pickett's death, his widow Sallie became a well-known writer and speaker on "her Soldier," eventually leading to the creation of an idealized Pickett who was the perfect Southern gentleman and soldier. A considerable amount of controversy attends Sallie Pickett's lionizing of her husband. Two books published posthumously in her husband's name, The Heart of a Soldier, As Revealed in the Intimate Letters of Gen'l George E. Pickett (published in 1913) and Soldier of the South: General Pickett's War Letters to His Wife (1928), have been described as "unreliable works that were fictionalized by Pickett's wife

History being what it is its sad to think we will never know Pickett's true makeup one way or the other!

[Swampman]

It seems, you have no respect or loyalty to our Constitution

No one has more respect or loyalty than me, but without a country it's just a piece of old paper.

The US would be about like Africa (just a group of poor backward countries with everyone starving) without Lincoln.

Again I see common sense, isn't common.....

[Ga.windbreak]

It seems, you have no respect or loyalty to our Constitution

No one has more respect or loyalty than me, but without a country it's just a piece of old paper.

The US would be about like Africa (just a group of poor backward countries with everyone starving) without Lincoln.

Again I see common sense, isn't common.....

Hmm, that old piece of paper just happened to be the glue that brought the several states together in the first place. There was no country before then, so much for your common sense.

As for:

The US would be about like Africa (just a group of poor backward countries with everyone starving) without Lincoln.

Its good to know your feelings concerning the ability (or lack there of according to you) of your fellow citizens. As for lincoln being/playing God, what a dang poor substitute, but to each his own.

[Swampman]

"My purpose is to be, in my action, just and constitutional; and yet practical, in performing the important duty, with which I am charged, of maintaining the unity, and the free principles of our common country."--August 7, 1863 Letter to Horatio Seymour

"I freely acknowledge myself the servant of the people, according to the bond of service -- the United States Constitution; and that, as such, I am responsible to them."--August 26, 1863 Letter to James Conkling

[Ga.windbreak]

"My purpose is to be, in my action, just and constitutional; and yet practical, in performing the important duty, with which I am charged, of maintaining the unity, and the free principles of our common country."--August 7, 1863 Letter to Horatio Seymour

"I freely acknowledge myself the servant of the people, according to the bond of service -- the United States Constitution; and that, as such, I am responsible to them."--August 26, 1863 Letter to James Conkling

Words are such pretty things yet without being backed up by the actions demanded by such words the words remain useless. You seem to be willing to say the means justify the end, I on the other hand am not. We are either a Nation of laws or we are not there is no grey area in my mind.

Any Union held together under force of arms is a Union bound to failure at some point in time. History is our greatest teacher in this area imo.

[Swampman]

All Unions are bound to fail.  Of Unions like this one, this one has out lasted them all.  Nobody could have done better than Lincoln did at saving the greatest country that's ever exist.

[Mohawk]

TM7..... Just curious. Can you route me to the Bismark site where you got this quote from? Thanks.

[Range Rider]

What ever the reason for the American Civil War it was a terrible thing.  I can not see victory or honor on either side. Had the war not been fought would human servitude have ended? I think so.  Would the need to fill the Northern supply of cheap labor been met.  Maybe Maybe not.  Was the use of the pulpet on both sides claiming power from god for all the useless killing a good thing?? I can not think that it was.  I can not see the wisdom to this day of the name calling that goes on.  Americans who are removed from the horrors and blood shed by 160 years claim they can feel the pain.  Walk thru the Military Grave yards these are the ones who felt the pain.  We should be all be thankful that a nation of wonderful people survived this terrible war.

RR

[Ga.windbreak]

What ever the reason for the American Civil War it was a terrible thing.  I can not see victory or honor on either side. Had the war not been fought would human servitude have ended? I think so.  Would the need to fill the Northern supply of cheap labor been met.  Maybe Maybe not.  Was the use of the pulpet on both sides claiming power from god for all the useless killing a good thing?? I can not think that it was.  I can not see the wisdom to this day of the name calling that goes on.  Americans who are removed from the horrors and blood shed by 160 years claim they can feel the pain.  Walk thru the Military Grave yards these are the ones who felt the pain.  We should be all be thankful that a nation of wonderful people survived this terrible war.

RR

What a wonderful breath of fresh air, thank you sir. While I don't totally agree with your every word the idea that war is honorable is only so to those who've not had the pleasure of being involved. To quote "Wars do not make one great." The prize was POWER and the loss was a Nation of laws.

As to the use of God's name to advance this cause men have been doing such since time began thus the fault lies with men.

WE could have easily trusted the Law we lived under and fought this battle with no blood shed as every other country in the world did so and are the better for it IMVHO. You do not see a division within those peoples because of Slavery or Tariffs, no where else in the new world did any such thing occur. Yet no where else was the wealth that is this Nation avalable therefore greed and power overruled Law thus war was demanded.

Lincoln said it all when he declared "We have the Sword and the Purse, They can not go, I will not let them!"

[Swampman]

The South didn't have to start the war but they did.  They could have let it go.

[Ga.windbreak]

TM7..... Just curious. Can you route me to the Bismark site where you got this quote from? Thanks.

.
I was doing some research on banking and the who and how countries run....I'll have to search for the article because I want to read it again.  In the interim:


http://www.qotd.org/search/search.html?aid=5290&page=3


..TM7
.

TM7 and Mohawk, you both just might want to check this out as it appears Bismark was misquoted and that the "Hazzard Circular" was sent to Wall Street Bankers to relieve Lincoln of his Greenbacks idea rather than any Southern Bankers plot with England.

http://www.garynorth.com/public/6940.cfm

Historical Error #18: Two Bogus Quotations from Bismarck on How European Bankers Planned the Civil War and Lincoln's Assassination

The death of Lincoln was a disaster for Christendom. There was no man in the United States great enough to wear his boots. And Israel went anew to garner the riches of the world. I fear that Jewish banks with their craftiness and tortuous tricks will entirely control the exuberant riches of America and will use it to systematically corrupt modern civilization. The Jews will not hesitate to plunge the whole of Christendom into wars and chaos in order that "the earth should become the inheritance of Israel." (Interview by C. Seim, La Vieille France, March, 1921.)

This appears on a forum on Stormfront.net: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t401915. We learn what this site is on its home page: http://www.stormfront.org/forum:


We are a community of White Nationalists. There are thousands of organizations promoting the interests, values and heritage of non-Whites. We promote ours.
Yet, even here, one of the participants identified the quotation as bogus.

Siem was born in 1861. He lived in the United States. He claimed that Bismarck wrote these words to him in a letter in 1876. He would have been 15 years old at the time.

To pay the soldiers the Government issued its Treasury notes, authorized by act of Congress, July 17, 1861, for $50,000,000, bearing no interest. These notes circulated at par with gold. The Rothschilds' agents inspired the American banks to offer to Lincoln a loan of $150 million. But before they had taken much of the loan, the banks broke down and suspended specie payments in Dec. 1861. They wished to blackmail Lincoln and demanded the "shaving" of government paper to the extent of 33%, an extortion which was refused. A bill drafted for the Government issue of $150 million, which should be full legal tender for every debt in the United States, passed the House of Representatives Feb. 25, 1862, and was hailed with delight by the entire country. But the Wall Street bankers were furious.

Sen. Pettigrew reprints the so called "Hazzard Circular" sent in 1862 by the Bank of England (ruled by the Rothsehilds) "Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power and chattel slavery destroyed. This I (Rothschild) and my European friends (the 300 men) are glad of, for slavery is but the owning of labor and carries with it the care of the laborer, while the European (read ' Rothschildian') plan led on by England (i.e. the Rothschilds) is for capital to control labor by controlling wages . THIS CAN BE DONE BY CONTROLLING THE MONEY. THE GREAT DEBT THAT CAPITALISTS WILL SEE TO IS MADE OUT OF THE WAR must be used as a means to control the volume of money. To accomplish this the BONDS must be used as a banking basis. We are now waiting for the Secretary of the Treasury to make his recommendation to Congress.

It will not do to ALLOW the GREENBACK, as it is called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that. Thus the order of the Rothschilds was clear: "Capitalists WILL SEE TO IT that a DEBT is MADE out of the war."

The TRUTH is out there, you just gotta want to find it!

[Ga.windbreak]

TM7/Mohawk

2 other links denoting the quotes as bogus:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Abraham_Lincoln

This is a highly dubious quotation, and the English statement seems to have originated in an anti-semitic booklet The Secret World Government or "The Hidden Hand": The Unrevealed in History (1926) by Count Cherep-Spriridovich, p. 180, which cites an earlier account in La Vielle France N. 216 (March 1921) of a German, Conrad Siem, who, it is claimed, Bismarck told in 1876:

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Banking

Disputed
The death of Lincoln was a disaster for Christendom. There was no man in the United States great enough to wear his boots and the bankers went anew to grab the riches. I fear that foreign bankers with their craftiness and tortuous tricks will entirely control the exuberant riches of America and use it to systematically corrupt modern civilization.
Sometimes attributed to Otto von Bismarck, German Chancellor (1815-1898). The apparent source of this is a German-American named Conrad Siem (d. 1931), who, in 1915, published recollections of conversations he allegedly had as a youth (about 12 years old) with Bismarck 37 years earlier. Should be treated skeptically. Siem, Conrad (1915). The C.S.L.T.: containing views on Abraham Lincoln as expressed by Bismarck in 1878, from the recollections of Conrad von Bauditz Siem. OCLC 52297724.  

Anyone for musical chairs? Of course anyone who wants to sell the books he/she writes it certainly adds to the readership to claim you have had meetings with the famous. But its best done after they die, wouldn't want to have egg on their face now would they?

[Swampman]

Tinfoil hat time.

[Dee]

What ever the reason for the American Civil War it was a terrible thing.  I can not see victory or honor on either side. Had the war not been fought would human servitude have ended? I think so.  Would the need to fill the Northern supply of cheap labor been met.  Maybe Maybe not.  Was the use of the pulpet on both sides claiming power from god for all the useless killing a good thing?? I can not think that it was.  I can not see the wisdom to this day of the name calling that goes on.  Americans who are removed from the horrors and blood shed by 160 years claim they can feel the pain.  Walk thru the Military Grave yards these are the ones who felt the pain.  We should be all be thankful that a nation of wonderful people survived this terrible war.

RR

What a wonderful breath of fresh air, thank you sir. While I don't totally agree with your every word the idea that war is honorable is only so to those who've not had the pleasure of being involved. To quote "Wars do not make one great." The prize was POWER and the loss was a Nation of laws.

As to the use of God's name to advance this cause men have been doing such since time began thus the fault lies with men.

WE could have easily trusted the Law we lived under and fought this battle with no blood shed as every other country in the world did so and are the better for it IMVHO. You do not see a division within those peoples because of Slavery or Tariffs, no where else in the new world did any such thing occur. Yet no where else was the wealth that is this Nation avalable therefore greed and power overruled Law thus war was demanded.

Lincoln said it all when he declared "We have the Sword and the Purse, They can not go, I will not let them!"

I have often heard the term "God is, or was, on our, or their side" . What a foolish thought by any whom would think such a thing. God is not on my side. I am on HIS! Sampson was not on the side of God, but God used him to work his will, just as he did the Romans. God allowed Lincoln to do what Lincoln did, but He was certainly not on his (Lincoln's) side, nor do I believe Lincoln on His. The problem being, I believe that God, with the lessons of the Uncivil War provided a LEARNING THEATER, to which we, at least most, learned NOTHING.
A flash TOWARD OUR PRESENT PERDICTAMENT should show this to be true. To paraphrase? Here we go again.

[Ga.windbreak]

God allowed Lincoln to do what Lincoln did, but He was certainly not on his (Lincoln's) side, nor do I believe Lincoln on His. The problem being, I believe that God, with the lessons of the Uncivil War provided a LEARNING THEATER, to which we, at least most, learned NOTHING.
A flash TOWARD OUR PRESENT PERDICTAMENT should show this to be true. To paraphrase? Here we go again.

Priceless my friend, as always, priceless!

[Swampman]

Pharaoh's heart became hard (Ex 7:13, 23)
Pharaoh hardened his heart (Ex 8:15, 32)
God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 9:7, 10:20)

[Ga.windbreak]

So, Ga. windbreak...I take it you don't think bankers financed both sides, co-opted the Union at 25-355 interest, had no influence in the South, nor that England-France were prime players striving to re-capture parts of North America...that Lincoln was the only protagionist...?

What I surmise is this: While the Crown and English Bankers wanted to gain control of, most certainly the Union, thus their ploy thru the NY bankers and Lincoln's agreement. By halting the loans to gain the increased interest it spurred Lincoln to rethink his plan. A certain young Army officer put the seeds of this move in Lincoln's thought process, some would have us believe. True or not? it really doesn't matter as the idea of the "GreenBacks" was born as well as the form 1040 and the personal income tax to pay for this grand scheme.

BTW a footnote to history: Hitler used the same scheme to pull Germany from the ashes in the early thirties - Fiat government money!

I'm sure every country prayed for our demise so that they might get their greedy hands back into this rich pie called the US so I'm not surprised by all of the CT's and inundos.

As for the Brits and Southerners (bankers) while they may have had meetings (I don't know or have I ever seen proof of such). My thinking is that no this was not high on the Brits/European Bankers agenda, Why? Had there been any real feeling that the South would win the Royal Bank would surely have pushed the Crown to recognize the South as a legal Government. Thus making it easy to do the things you have suggested.

  What next..?  Seems like any criticism of banking and influence on wars, eg. The Civil War...gets the anti-semetic treatment eventually....thusly, methinks we need to look closer. As for the research polluters at stormfront, who essentially promote anti-semetism, I recommend avoiding them.

While a site's social leanings certainly have an effect on the way they paint a picture the hard facts they use/leave out do not change; only the perception of them do.

Using a witer's story of a meeting his supposely had with the leader of a country on the surface sounds true yet when you add the FACT that the writer was a teen (12 to 15) living in another country the plausability level takes a nose dive imho. Add in the fact that said
leader had long ago past from the scene when the interview was held with said writer and what you are left with is a bald face lie!

Off topic but Yes I agree the European/Bank of England group has lusted after our wealth from the minute we became a Nation. 1913 proved to be the year of our downfall both as a Nation and as Free men. We are now nothing more than slaves to the State!

The Light on a hill that was the United States of 1860 died in 1865 and was offically buried in 1913.

Turn out the lights the party's over!  RIP Dandy Don!