Lincoln

[rlm5]

Awhile back I read a thread about Lincoln and how he had  people arrested that left church early while they prayed for the president or ministers that did not pray for him, I cannot find this thread. Unfortunatly I live in the peoples republic of New Jersey and trying to talk to anybody here except for a select few about the civil war or Lincoln being anything but a saint is pretty tough I need hard facts to convince people that the war was about the wealthy in the north and states rights not directly about slavery. Please help me convince them otherwise.
     I went to Gettysburg not too long ago and was appalled that they had so much dedicated to Lincoln I guess it won't be long before he is declared a saint!!!  Also for those intersted I just finished a book " A Peoples History of the United States 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn, it is available to read online  http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html. It is about the most unbiased history book I've ever read, well worth the time.  Thanks for your time.   Roger

[subdjoe]

Welcome.  Place to start in the stickys that have links to sources.  Browse through those and you should find a bunch of good stuff.

[All Hawks Kill]

Sorry I can't point you to the thread you are looking for, but I just wanted to let you know that it is not only the folks up north that think Commrad Lincoln was a saint, and the war was only to free the slaves.  We have a good share of the same beliefs down here in the South.  People have been taught to believe anything that is written on a piece or paper or broadcast on the news.  It is really a sad state of affairs that the truth can not be taught in schools, and I blame that for the present day problems we are seeing in this country.  Sorry I'll get down off my soapbox now.

[rlm5]

All Hawks Kill,   The problem is as has been stated before, the winner writes the history books, also people are too quick to believe everything they read and don't question anything. I'm a southern boy living among a bunch of yankees . But I have convinced a few to  for look for the truth themselves and not just take my word for it, and some have changed their minds and hopefully will spread the word and convince others. Brainwashing is a hard thing to reverse.   Roger

[RB1235]

http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/inside.asp?ID=636&subjectID=4
Don't know if this was exactly what you wanted. Below is a copy and paste so folks wont have to click.


Fourth Presbyterian Church
Historian Allen C. Guelzo wrote: “Washington’s First Presbyterian Church, which liked to advertise itself as the ‘church of the presidents’ because Jackson, Polk, Pierce, and Buchanan had rented a pew there, offered Lincoln the use of the same pew as his predecessors, but sitting in the pew of the Jacksonians was not Lincoln’s idea of comfort.”.1

According to Julia Taft, "The President and Mrs. Lincoln attended the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church, but it was not long before Willie and Tad formed the habit of going with us to the Fourth Presbyterian, of which Doctor J. C. Smith was pastor. Many in our church were in sympathy with the secessionists, and when Doctor Smith prayed for the President of the United States they would express their disapproval by rising and leaving the church, banging their pew doors and the outside door on their way out. This went on for several weeks until one Sunday a slim young lieutenant appeared with a file of soldiers. When the hour for service arrived the lieutenant marched to the front of the church, wheeled, and in a crisp, military tone, announced:

        'It is the order of the Provost Marshal that any one disturbing this service or leaving it before ti is out will be arrested and taken to the guardhouse.'

        "It seemed to me that Doctor Smith prayed rather longer and more fervently than usual that day for the President but there was no disturbance on the part of secessionists. Tad Lincoln was frankly disappointed. The indignant exodus of the secessionists with their banging of pew doors had been a welcome respite in the long prayer. He had more than once remarked, 'I don't see why preachers always pray so long for Pa.' After the service he expressed his scorn of the 'Secesshes,' as he called them, for not accepting the lieutenant's challenge.

         'If I was Secesh,' said Tad, 'I wouldn't let him stop me banging pew doors.'

        Yes,' answered Willie, 'and get put in the guardhouse.'

        'Well, I guess Pa could get me out,' was Tad's answer.

        I remember that Sunday, as Tad sat on the floor of the pew, as he usually did amusing himself with whatever he had in his pocket, a young officer, who was with us, gave him his knife, thinking Tad could not open it. But he did and cut his finger and I had to bind it up with my best embroidered handkerchief. 'I will never take you to church again, Thomas Lincoln.'2



On another occasion, Mr. Lincoln peered over his reading glasses and asked Julia, "Why do our boys like to go to your church?" Mrs. Lincoln added: "They won't go to Doctor Gurley's unless Bud and Holly go too." When Julia said Fourth Presbyterian was livelier, Mrs. Lincoln asked Willie his opinion. Willie explained about the door-banging and the provost martial - leading Tad to ask his father why preachers insisted on praying "so long for you, Pa?" Julia reported that the smile left Mr. Lincoln's face as he replied: "Well, Tad, I supposed it's because the preachers think I need it and, I guess I do." The President then left the Family Library and went to his office.3


Footnotes

         1. Allen C. Guelzo, Abraham Lincoln: Redeemer President, p. 321.
         2. Julia Taft Bayne, Tad Lincoln's Father, pp. 29-31.
         3. Bayne, Tad Lincoln's Father, pp. 33-35.

[Ga.windbreak]

Awhile back I read a thread about Lincoln and how he had  people arrested that left church early while they prayed for the president or ministers that did not pray for him, I cannot find this thread. Unfortunatly I live in the peoples republic of New Jersey and trying to talk to anybody here except for a select few about the civil war or Lincoln being anything but a saint is pretty tough I need hard facts to convince people that the war was about the wealthy in the north and states rights not directly about slavery. Please help me convince them otherwise.
     I went to Gettysburg not too long ago and was appalled that they had so much dedicated to Lincoln I guess it won't be long before he is declared a saint!!!  Also for those intersted I just finished a book " A Peoples History of the United States 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn, it is available to read online  http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html. It is about the most unbiased history book I've ever read, well worth the time.  Thanks for your time.   Roger

Roger, first of all "Welcome" we are glad to have you join us. As to "hard" facts I hate to say it but facts seldom sway those who believe what they were  taught in school. I find a better way is to question their beliefs based on those facts you know to be true. If you can get them to start to question that which they believe you may then get your foot in their door, so to speak.

With Lincoln I always ask if that person believes in our Constitution and then follow that by asking (using one of Lincoln's illegal acts) if they believe a president should be able to do such a thing. Then I follow that with the Lincoln illegal act showing them the error of their ways with the  added dare of look it up if you don't believe me.

[Dee]

I cannot remember the Texas School system teaching anything remotely close to the truth after about 1964 or 65. I found out the truth concerning Lincoln as an adult I think. This is one of those places where you can research and compare what you have found. Occasionally someone will drop by with an agenda, rather than a lust for the truth, but not often, and they seldom last.

[SouthernByGrace]

Roger, I join Ga.windbreak in welcoming you to the forum.
You bring up a very good point, in that you can show some people actual PROOF until you're blue in the face, and they Still won't be swayed. "The government taught me this so it Has to be true," is what you will get most of the time.

A few years ago, we (The SCV) were conducting a Living History for a school in the Savannah, Georgia area. We had several people come up to us who were fully aware that what they "learned" in school was a bunch of hogwash, but they really didn't know any details of what exactly was true and what was not. I told one man to take a book he had shown me and open it up to the page showing the author and publication date. My being full of sarcasm after about 50 people had done this, I simply told the gentleman, "That page is true, but I can probably count on one hand how many more pages in this book are." It was a book on Lincoln.

Later that same day we had a captive (and entirely captivated) audience of "educators" who actually wanted us to Teach them the Truth, once and for all. A few of them knew what they were doling out in the classroom was phony balony but didn't know what to do about it. Let me say at this point that about half of this group of 25-ish was black. For the most part, they were really enthralled by what we were showing them. The entire group thanked us continuously for showing them the truth. Then, when most of the people had gone, and a few stayed to get more information, one black woman in particular just sort of hung around until only two or three remained. She calmly came up to us and admitted that what we had shown completely contradicted her "beliefs" on the War, its causes, etc., etc. She admitted to us, away from her colleagues, that she knew we were right, but then we were Floored at what she said next.

"Gentleman, this has been a fascinating event and I thank you for your time and effort in compiling the information used here today. I know what you have shown here today to be true and unbiased information. There was no malice in your delivery of that information and I appreciate that very much. Though your proof is undeniable, and your motives are pure at heart, as I believe them to be, I CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE YOU."   

Wait a minute! WHAT?

That's right, she CHOSE NOT to believe us!!!!! 

Everyone, including those who had stayed behind with her, was stunned into complete silence. Nobody said a word for what seemed like 30 minutes, but was more like a couple of minutes. I broke the silence when I said nonchalantly, "Well then lady, you are a complete idiot." "I probably am", she replied. She admitted we were right. She saw the evidence for herself. She had a college degree and was supposedly an educated person. And she CHOSE not to believe us? This lady was a college dean, and she CHOSE not to believe us? I couldn't help but ask what she meant. She said, "As a black woman, I feel more empowered not to believe you. If I chose to believe what I saw here today, and I know beyond the shadow of a doubt it is true, I would lose my empowered status as a person of color."

I asked if she were a religious person and she said, "Of course I am". "Then you are a lost soul and you don't even know it," I told her. I continued, "Don't you know that Truth is one of the most Powerful things on earth? Don't you know that, with what you learned here today, you could help start to re-educate other black people? Showing them the truth would empower you beyond your wildest dreams. You would be seen as a hero for bringing them out of the darkness and into the light. Isn't that what God expects of all of us?" She again admitted I was right. She never could bring herself to say we had changed her mind. She left that day knowing we were right, but still CHOSE not to believe a word we said. It was one of the saddest things I had ever seen. The other black people there couldn't believe what they heard when she said she CHOSE not to believe us.
 
I'm reminded of a Toby Kieth song lyric, I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was. Now, I know that lyric was saying something entirely different from this topic, but it serves to remind me that, no matter how hard we try, we can't get to everybody at one time, but we can get to them one at a time.

I, for one, have the satisfaction of knowing the truth of the War, and that our Southern ancestors were Right in there endeavor to bring about an Independent Southern nation. And no matter what she Chooses to do with the information, so does that college dean from Savannah.

SBG   

DEO VINDICE

[rlm5]

Gentlemen,  Thank you for all the welcome's, and for all the info. SBG, I understand what you are saying, some people can get slap so hard with the truth but still refuse to believe their eyes and ears really makes you wonder. The book I recommended speaks the truth and is well worth the time to read. Thanks again for all the info.  Roger

[Gary G]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo-arch.html

Tom DiLorenzo is an expert on Lincoln. You probably could email him your question.

[Dee]

Gary G, I scanned thru and read some writings of DiLorenzo, and it appears he indeed has a handle on the type of scoundrel "Dishonest Abe" really was. It is all I can do to keep from rolling in the floor in uncontrollable laughter, when I hear blacks get on TV and immortalize Lincoln as their liberator. For that matter, it is the same when Michael King aka Martin Luther is brought up. They leave out the fact, or ignorantly do not know, that King had a penchant for white whores, whom he brutalized, and the fact that had he lived his doctorate degree would most likely have been revoked, as he had plagiarized his work to get it, and the simple fact that he had never legally changed his name to Martin Luther.
It seems Americans love to romanticize, and idolize "Frauds". Go figure. Like in another thread on another topic, folks are still talking about Custer. A  blood thirsty butcher, and murderer of the Native American. I wonder if he, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, and Ulysses S. Grant are as we speak, sharing a cup of brimstone? Provided of course the others could get Grant sober enough to sit at the table, and Lincoln out of bed with some Military orderly.
Sorry for the rant, but damn I fee better.

[All Hawks Kill]

We all need a good rant now and again to blow off a little steam.  It is also very nice to read what you folks are writing and knowing I'm not the only one.....

[Swampman]

Whatever he was, he was probably the smartest president we've ever had except Jefferson.  But then again nobody is/was smarter than Jefferson.

[squirrellluck]

Smart don't make you right. Just more guilty for trashing the constitution.

[Swampman]

Or saving it

[squirrellluck]

You're gonna have to get better bait swampy

[Gary G]

Or saving it

States Rights was a limit on the Federal Government before Lincoln. He pretty much ended that along with killing 350,000 innocent Americans. Now you see what we have. Not only did he Lincoln suppress individual rights, he set the course for the income tax and all other losses of Liberty. Pretty soon you will have to have permission to post on here. It will be called an Internet use license. In fact you probably already have to do that with an fcc tax. Refuse to pay it and see if you post. You don't even own your house. Stop paying that usage fee (property tax) and see if they don't take it away from you and give it to someone else. See what Lincoln started?

[rlm5]

gary G    Amen to that!!!!

[Swampman]

Having studied the Rebellion for over 25 years I say what I like and let others believe as they wish.  Linclon saved and made the US.  Wheather that's a good thing remains to be seen.

[Dee]

Swampy if you studied the Rebellion "honestly" you wouldn't be sayin what your sayin. If you actually read Lincoln, you would never defend him. I think your doing your usual "baiting", as you never provide any meat to you opinions, just the smell.

[Ga.windbreak]

Having studied the Rebellion for over 25 years I say what I like and let others believe as they wish.  Linclon saved and made the US.  Wheather that's a good thing remains to be seen.

Stubbon aint smart, your Linclon killed some total 700,000+ Americans by wrecking our Constitution thus depriving us of life liberty and any chance at happiness. He was a cowardly, little man, the only thing being big his shoes and his ego for power while his heart and mind remained somewhere around age 10 or so.

To compair Lincoln to Thomas Jefferson (Lincoln being white trash to Jefferson's Master of the big house) in terms of smarts is laughable though I will submit they were a weird pair when picking bed mates!

[subdjoe]

Having studied the Rebellion for over 25 years I say what I like and let others believe as they wish.  Linclon saved and made the US.  Wheather that's a good thing remains to be seen.

Stubbon aint smart, your Linclon killed some total 700,000+ Americans by wrecking our Constitution thus depriving us of life liberty and any chance at happiness. He was a cowardly, little man, the only thing being big his shoes and his ego for power while his heart and mind remained somewhere around age 10 or so.

To compair Lincoln to Thomas Jefferson (Lincoln being white trash to Jefferson's Master of the big house) in terms of smarts is laughable though I will submit they were a weird pair when picking bed mates!

Add in that roughly 1.25 million 'excess' civilian deaths.  That is, deaths in the civilian population above what would have normally been expected in the time frame of the WASR.  And since most of the war was fought in southern states, most of those deaths were southern.  Not directly by military action "stormed at with shot and shell" but indirectly through starvation and disease caused by the scorched earth methods used.

[Swampman]

I have no bias.  I like Lincoln as much as I like Lee, Jackson, and Forrest.  My people fought on both sides.  I'm glad Lincoln preserved the Union or none of us would be here.

[Gary G]

I have no bias.  I like Lincoln as much as I like Lee, Jackson, and Forrest.  My people fought on both sides.  I'm glad Lincoln preserved the Union or none of us would be here.

From the beginning, Hamilton wanted a strong central government; to be like England. He wanted Washington to be King. Jefferson, Madison and most wanted freedom from government. Jefferson as president undid the big government policies of Adams and Hamilton. The Whig party leader Henry Clay worshiped the ideas of Hamilton. Lincoln was a student and follower of Henry Clay. If you are glad that Lincoln won, then you must be glad of all the freedoms that you have lost and all the wealth that was taken from you and wasted in the name of empire.

Surely we would still be here; and freer, happier and more prosperous. In the days of Jefferson, there was no such thing as unemployment, and that would still be true today if we were free to do and to hire as we wished without being regulated and taxed to death.

[Swampman]

None of us would be here.  We (both us and this Nation) are here because the War went the way it did.  Unemployment has always existed and it always will.

The South never had a chance.  The North barely even tried to win but they did.

[Gary G]

None of us would be here.  We (both us and this Nation) are here because the War went the way it did.  Unemployment has always existed and it always will.

The South never had a chance.  The North barely even tried to win but they did.

"none of us would be here"

Why do you think this?


PS In a letter from Jefferson while in France to Adams, Jefferson noted the high unemployment in France and thought their government was the cause. He also stated that no one was without a job in America except those just getting off a boat from Europe.

[Swampman]

This country wouldn't exist if the Civil War hadn't made it into what it became.  Nobody was without a job that wanted a job.  That hasn't changed.  They just don't want a job bad enough.

[Ga.windbreak]

This country wouldn't exist if the Civil War hadn't made it into what it became.  Nobody was without a job that wanted a job.  That hasn't changed.  They just don't want a job bad enough.

Oh, please, go tell that to the 18+ million out of work today. Even the illegals are begining to leave (rats on a sinking ship)!

You are right about one thing Lincoln was the first progressive in a long line leading right up to Obamacare!

So yes this country would be far different had we won but even in losing we are still holding you progressives to the fire. Don't believe me See election night 11/02/10.

[Swampman]

The Civil War made us the most powerful nation in the world.  Without it we'd be speaking German or Japanese.  Lincoln was right.

[subdjoe]

The Civil War made us the most powerful nation in the world.  Without it we'd be speaking German or Japanese.  Lincoln was right.

You are making the assumption that everything else would have been exactly the same if the seven states of the deep south had been allowed to leave the Union peacefully.  A totally unsupported assumption.

Trade would have been changed, relations with Europe would have been changed. Would the US have bought Alaska?  If not, how would that have changed Russia and Europe?  What would have been the effect of a separate and prosperous Confederacy on the world stage?  Would the Confederacy maybe have taken the northern states of Mexico?How about  if Lincoln had not been killed and had served out his second term?  Would the US maybe have invaded Canada to make up for seven states leaving?  How would all of that have changed European politics and economy?  Would the Austro-Prussian war have taken place?  How about the Franco-Prussian war?  Spanish-American war?  Maybe a Confederacy would have prevented WWI from happening, which would then have prevented the conditions that led to WWII.   Or maybe the Central Powers would have won the War to End All War, which again would have prevented the conditions that led to WWII.

Who knows what ideas and talent were killed off by Lincolns monomaniacal drive to hold the Union together.  In those 650,000 his actions killed, not to mention the 1.25 million "excess" civilian deaths, there must have been a lot of genius and talent.  Maybe someone Lincoln killed would have invented a vaccine that could have prevented the Spanish Influenza. 


Heck, would maybe both nations have merged again after 25 or 50 years and have been stronger and more unified than before. What would that have done?