Lincoln

[subdjoe]

The South didn't have to start the war but they did.  They could have let it go.

By that reasoning, if a burglar breaks into my house, I have to wait for him to shoot before I can fire on him. 

Lincoln had refused to pull troops out, get them off of SC soil, and was sending in more troops, supplies, and some warships in preparation to invading SC and the other states that had left the Union.  Invasion is usually considered an act of war.

[Ga.windbreak]

subjoe....how do you invade your own soil.....i.e. in the Union's mind that is..??

GaWindbreak....actually Lincoln was doing what was constitutionally mandated, at least when it came to the Greenbacks,,which is that Congress would issue and control the money supply. Avoiding Euro bank usury's 25-35% loans was his perogative...good idea. The fact that France and England were looking forward to liquidating the USA at this time; first by division of loyalties, second by force of usury, and thirdly by armed insurection thru Mexico and Canada was primarily stymied by the Czar of Russia...who's premier fleets sailed into American waters after issuing an ultimatum that these two countries must curb their movements in North America or else face the Czar's forces directly...they complied.

As Lincoln said (paraphrazing),,,"I face two great enemies....the banking agencies of Europe in back of me, and the Con-federate Army in front of me. Of the two the enemy behind me is far the worst." As for his issuance of governmnet legal tender, w/o interest, that is what earned him a public execution.


..TM7
.

SC was, at that time, a sovereign state that Lincoln had no Constitutional power to enter with force of arms.

Please show me just where in the Constitution is the power to issue paper money backed by nothing? Yes, the Constitution demands that Congress sets the standard of Gold and Silver and the issuance of the same. The main reason for such is to limit the Federal government from doing the very thing Lincoln did go to war without the funds to wage it!

Limited Government, you see is the backbone of our freedom and the so called “Greenbacks and the personal income tax to pay for it was/is no where to be found in the US Constitution.

So you are wrong on both counts. You are welcome to try and disprove my statements but I warn you our Constitution is very specific as to the coinage of money and in who’s purvey it resides. Fiat Money has no place in our country, then, now, or ever! It is, in fact along with the income tax, the thief of our freedoms!

[subdjoe]

The apologists will keep insisting that the States were created by the Federal government and never had any power,  that the Constitution was handed down ex cathedra by that same Federal government "giving" us our rights.  And the Federal government must never be held accountable to the States. 

[Ga.windbreak]

Ga.WindBreak.

Union and supreme court did not recognize re-claimed soverignty...hence in their minds they could not invade their own country.

Congress and Pres. had Constitutional authority to mint/alloy coins and currency and to set the value thereof.....don't know if the currency was to be backed by bullion or not...just value set. You and I both agree that fiat floated currency is a bad idea since it always assumes it's true value eventually..!

Article 1 , section 2...gave them the right to levy direct taxes apportioned thru the several states....at least in their mind.

Small governmnet?....good idea.

I use to be a Lincoln basher for all the usual reasons.....I think he was up against greater forces than he Southern Army...almost perservered thru it all....until they popped him.

...TM7
.

Taken directly from the Constitution:

Taxes:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Such taxes must be direct and uniform which means you can't charge one man one % of his land, worth, income and another man a different % of same land, worth, and or income. That would/does allow the Government to treat citizens differently which is against everything our Constitution and Natural law stand for!

The making of money:

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Money is gold or silver not paper. I will grant that Congress has the right to issue Bills of Credit, Fiat Money but it must be backed by gold and or silver and no where does it say congress is allowed to transfer its power to a privately owned instutition which will be allowed to charge said government interest on such bills of credit. And why must it be backed up by gold and or silver because thats the only item the Constitution says is money!

As for the President, nowhere in his list of duties will you find the ability or authority to have any say so concerning Money or its coinage. Sorry but no cigar!

[Ga.windbreak]

I had to come back and add that those "Bills of Credit" could/would also be Treasury Bonds that are legal but must still be backed up by coin of the realm.

Also no where in the constitution does it give congress the right to levy a particular tax to be used to pay a particular debt such as an income tax to pay for the debt of a fiat money scheme, which is what the income tax is for. All taxes must go into the general fund to pay for the Government's debt. Its the very reason you can't set aside a special tax for Social Security. There just is no such animal and is also why the SS tax is illegal!

BTW it is also why the Tariff (TAX) set up by Lincoln and his cronies in congress was illegal, it was not uniform across the several states but was designed specifically for those items coming only into southern ports thus posing undue hardship on the southern citizen. Unequal taxation is strickly against the law.

[Ga.windbreak]

I will say this; the more I study both the WONA and our Constitution the more I'm ashamed of our leaders on both sides for not trying harder to fix this problem by using the Courts system versus the sword to solve it. The blame is truly on the radicals of both sides, the greed of the Northern Industrialist, anti-slaver, and hypocritical (illegal too) Ship owning slave trader versus the Fire breathing Southern slave owner stiring the pot suggesting that freed slave uprisings would be the norm to inflame the masses towards war. Nothing could be further from the truth given the record of loyalty of not only the Southern blacks but other races that lived among those of us in the South.

By being so stiffed backed and uncompromising the Constitution as well as the Country was ruined. Do we have a Union, of sorts, yes but it in no way compares to that which we lost.

I leave you with these words: Thomas Paine "Common Sense"

"We ought to reflect, that there are three different ways, by which an independency may hereafter be effected; and that ONE of these THREE, will one day or other, be the fate of America, viz. By the legal voice of the people in congress; by a Military power; or by a mob: It may not always happen that our solders are citizens, and the multitude a body of reasonable men; virtue, as I have already remarked, is not hereditary, neither is it perpetual." - Thomas Paine

[Gary G]

As I recall, the southern states threatened succession in 1832. It worked and the "tariff of abominations", as it was called, was modified. With the Morrill tariff the threat did not work. The tyrant would not budge. As a result, the Federation was lost; centralization and statism was born.

This was posted on Mises today. Some of you might be interested:
http://mises.org/daily/4887

[subdjoe]

As I recall, the southern states threatened succession in 1832. It worked and the "tariff of abominations", as it was called, was modified. With the Morrill tariff the threat did not work. The tyrant would not budge. As a result, the Federation was lost; centralization and statism was born.

This was posted on Mises today. Some of you might be interested:
http://mises.org/daily/4887

And the New England states threatened it in 1803, 1812, and I believe in 1834, and were always appeased.  So clearly it was NOT thought of as something prohibited to the states.

[Swampman]

I would suggest "Abraham Lincoln, Redemer President" by Allen C. Guelzo.  It's a great read.

[littlecanoe]

Wasn't it Robert E Lee who declined an offer of commission as a Union General because he had to fight to protect his "country" Virginia?   

This shows how, in modern context, we have moved away from what the Founders envisioned.  It is important to remember this when considering any discussion on the cause and effect of the WONA.

[ironfoot]

Hi littlecanoe

I expect the Founding Fathers might not have all been in agreement as to how strong a Union they were creating. Unfortunately that had to finally be decided by a war. At least I hope it is finally decided. In order to pound it into school kids' heads that the Union is perpetual, they recite a pledge, saying:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

[S.S.]

None of us would be here.  We (both us and this Nation) are here because the War went the way it did.  Unemployment has always existed and it always will.

The South never had a chance.  The North barely even tried to win but they did.

What? never had a chance? 2/3  of the casualties were Northern! I still have not found a satisfactory
reason that the south surrendered in the first place. Other than maybe the fact of atrocities (genocide) such as
Sherman committed scaring the civilian population. A war criminal if ever there was one...   

[Swampman]

The state of New York had more fighting age men than the entire South.  The North didn't even have to try to win.

[littlecanoe]

Hi littlecanoe

I expect the Founding Fathers might not have all been in agreement as to how strong a Union they were creating. Unfortunately that had to finally be decided by a war. At least I hope it is finally decided. In order to pound it into school kids' heads that the Union is perpetual, they recite a pledge, saying:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I believe that we are all beginning to see how much liberty has been sacrificed and undermined as we observe our present condition.  It is my firm opinion that the 1860's began this erosion.  May we all step back and contemplate what was intended and what was lost. 

[ironfoot]

What freedoms have we lost exactly?
I can live in any state I want.
I can travel the country at will.
I can choose my occupation.
I can choose whether to serve in the military.
I can say pretty much what I want, as long as I don't make terroristic threats or yell "fire" in a crowded theater, or unjustly defame somebody.
I can be any race or sex or religion or sexual orientation and still get a job.
I can choose whether to marry, and who, and whether or not to have children.
I can read what I want.
Maybe we have too much freedom?
Sure I have to pay taxes, but they are lower than in most other countries.

[Ga.windbreak]

What freedoms have we lost exactly?
I can live in any state I want.
I can travel the country at will.
I can choose my occupation.
I can choose whether to serve in the military.
I can say pretty much what I want, as long as I don't make terroristic threats or yell "fire" in a crowded theater, or unjustly defame somebody.
I can be any race or sex or religion or sexual orientation and still get a job.
I can choose whether to marry, and who, and whether or not to have children.
I can read what I want.
Maybe we have too much freedom?
Sure I have to pay taxes, but they are lower than in most other countries.

Not to be disrespectful to you but if you really believe that which you just posted I really feel sorry for you and might I suggest you read the Constitution paying close attention to all three articles of government and the first 10 amendments. A book called "The Federalist papers" might also be in order. You have to pay taxes and from the moment you are born you are nothing more than a slave to the bidding of the Federal Reserve. You neither own your land or the house that sits on it. It can be taken from you at the governments whim (eminate doman) and may God help you if you fall behind on your property taxes for they will throw you out and sell it for pennies on the dollar. The minute you retire you will be taxed on Medicare insurence (Mandated BTW) and automatically taken from you without your say so. Face it friend As John Henry said "We owe our soul to the company store!" BTW get ready for another tax Obama cooked up that will kick in starting this year, 2011, and going full blown in 2014! Its called Obama Care, welcome to the real world!

AS to the Taxes you pay you'd best recheck your comment about just how low they are compaired to whomever!

[Ga.windbreak]

Wasn't it Robert E Lee who declined an offer of commission as a Union General because he had to fight to protect his "country" Virginia?   

This shows how, in modern context, we have moved away from what the Founders envisioned.  It is important to remember this when considering any discussion on the cause and effect of the WONA.

Lee declined becoming General of the Army of the Potomac and turned in his resignation/Commission. It was said he became very ill for some time over the thought of what he was doing but just could not bare the thought of raising his sword against his own kin.

You just might be interested to know in the original oath when joining the Military you pledged loyalty to your state as well as the Constitution and this was not changed until the 1930's as a matter of fact. So you see that the schooling of this country's children is full of holes and there are many lies perpetuated to help the Government keep its control over us. One says I can go here or there, read what I want, live where I want, and so forth. One can do these things in many countries and if that is what you consider Freedom then who am I to tell you otherwise! 

[ironfoot]

Hi Ga.Windbreak

So you think we are not free because of property taxes and the threat of eminent domain?

What countries don't tax their citizens?
One can question the fairness of any tax.
Is it fair to tax one's income, estate, property, charge "fees" for government services?
Most of us want taxes that others have to pay.
If I own a lot of land, I don't like property taxes.
If I have a high income, I don't like a graduated income tax.
If I have a big estate, and want to pass it on to my kids, I don't like estate taxes.
Should income taxes be graduated, or should their be a flat income tax?
If you don't pay your property tax, your property can be taken from you, but if you don't pay your income tax you can be sent to prison, so which type of tax makes you less free?

As far as eminent domain goes, it is provided for by the Fifth Amandment to the US Constitution:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

The government can take land, through the court process, provided the government can prove a public purpose for the taking, but the government has to pay fair value for the land taken.
Without the government's ability to take land through eminent domain, the government would be prohibited from proceeding with projects that promote the public wealfare. Most eminent domain proceedings are for highway projects.
The reason I can travel anywhere I want in the US is because of the public raod system, paid for by tax dollars, and much of the land underlying those public roads was acquired through eminent domain proceedings.

[Ga.windbreak]

So you want to have us believe we are no better than any other Country?

What other country don't tax their citizens?

Wow, what a great come back. Shall I also name those other countries that allow their slaves to do those things you list as Freedom's? Even the Slave owners of early America allowed most of those things to their slaves, would you say they were free?

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

The operative thought here is "Without just compensation!" And I suggest you read up on the latest rulings of our Supreme Court and how it trashes that part of your supposed Freedom from government intervention and compensation.

We are slaves and the proof of it as I said and say again to you is April 15 of each and every year you live. The income tax is is designed to do but one thing and that is to pay on the interest of the fiat money loaned to the federal government by the Federal Reserve. It is not backed by anything other than the sweat off of your back and if you are happy with being in that situation and consider yourself free. Then who am I to burst your bubble.

I leave you with these thoughts:

"Can the real Constitution be restored? Probably not. Too many Americans depend on government money under programs the Constitution doesn't authorize, and money talks with an eloquence Shakespeare could only envy. Ignorant people don't understand The Federalist Papers, but they understand government checks with their names on them."

--Joseph Sobran

"Is the United States a free country? Not by traditional measures. In the history of Western civilization, freedom has an economic meaning and a legal meaning. The United States fails both measures of freedom. April 15 -- Tax Day -- has come to symbolize America's lack of economic freedom. Americans have no more claim to their incomes than did medieval serfs. The most successful Americans are comparable to slaves."

---Paul Craig Roberts

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom - go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"

- Speech at the State House, Philadelphia, August 1, 1776

[Swampman]

Would it have been better with southern tyrants in charge?

[ironfoot]

Hi Ga.windbreak

You did not name the countries all of the countries where their citizens have more freedom then we do in the US. You seem to think they are numerous. Maybe you also believed Michael Moore when he claimed Cuba's health care system is better then ours.

I do not beleve that the pre Civil War slaves had most of the freedoms I listed above, and a claim that they did strikes me as absurd.

Regarding eminent domain, most of the uproar about that lately has been over the Kelo decision. The main issue in that case was what constitutes a "public purpose", not adequacy of compensation. It was an eminent domain action brought by local government, not the federal government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

Nobody likes paying taxes, but all governments need collect them in order to provide government services. The issue for most people is a matter of degree. What services should be provided by the government and funded through taxes, and what services should be provided by the private sector? Those decisions are made by elected officials. The first tax example you complained about was property taxes. Those are imposed by local governments, not the federal government. That is what your states' rights have gotten you, the property taxes you dislike.

[Ga.windbreak]

And upheld by SCOTUS.

As I said before I'll not debate you on this issue, you are happy, who am I to burst your bubble. You are unwilling to even see the possibility that there is another view point because you are so free, hmm!

PS there are many ways to raise taxes and we operated as a country for over 120 years with only 4 years of that period being with an income tax and a form 1040. I give you your hero Abe Lincoln! It was BTW our greatest period of growth as a nation save for that 4 war torn  and bloody year period!

Of course other countries don't operate that way so I guess in your eyes we should have no desire to do so either, dear me! Unless you are the lead dog the view NEVER changes!

[Ga.windbreak]

Would it have been better with southern tyrants in charge?

Oh, please!

It would have been better had there been some cool heads lead by a real man who would have lead this country by the book rather than be lead by a coward scared by the radical mob mentality thus drawing the sword to solve this problem. Or are you just so in love with war and killing that your eyes are shut to any other possibility?

[ironfoot]

And upheld by SCOTUS.

So the Supreme Court upheld states' rights, and you think that means a federal goernment run amock? Hmmmmm.

As I said before I'll not debate you on this issue, you are happy, who am I to burst your bubble. You are unwilling to even see the possibility that there is another view point because you are so free, hmm!

I am willing to hear other viewpoints. But you keep making bold statements when the evidence seems to contradict what you say. Hmmmmm..No wonder you don't want to debate it anymore.

PS there are many ways to raise taxes and we operated as a country for over 120 years with only 4 years of that period being with an income tax and a form 1040. I give you your hero Abe Lincoln! It was BTW our greatest period of growth as a nation save for that 4 war torn  and bloody year period!

Of course other countries don't operate that way so I guess in your eyes we should have no desire to do so either, dear me! Unless you are the lead dog the view NEVER changes!

You still haven't supplied the list of the vast number of countries where the citizens have more freedom while paying less taxes than US citizens.

[Gary G]

You still haven't supplied the list of the vast number of countries where the citizens have more freedom while paying less taxes than US citizens.
[/quote]

Eighth and falling: http://www.heritage.org/index/

[Ga.windbreak]

Thanks Gary G, I meant what I said about no further debate with lronfoot and felt if he REALLY cared versus just arguing he just might look it up but alas such is not the case, so your answer is welcomed.

Again Thank you.

[ironfoot]

Hi GaryG
The list in your link is interesting.
The US is 8 out of 183 countries in terms of economic opportunity and prosperity according to the list. The U.S. being 8 out of 183 is not too shabby. But what about other freedoms? Say the right to own guns? Want to adopt the gun controls in Canada and Australia? I doubt it, so that makes us number 6. Ireland is bankrupt, so that makes us number 5. New Zealand is a South Pacific island without any real problems compared to the US role as the world's policemen. Switzerland is a bit cowardly as a nuetral state that served as banker to the Nazis. Switzerland is also dealing with mafia infiltration. So, you want to move to Singapore or Hong Kong? What are their gun laws? How would the U.S. rate if it still allowed slavery like it did during the golden era in GeorgiaWindbreaks worldview?
 

[Ga.windbreak]

still allowed slavery like it did during the golden era in GeorgiaWindbreaks worldview?

Your last sarcastic parry deserves no response from me. Have a great day.