Ancient Americans

[Spirithawk]

I'd like to keep this accurate and civil ok folks. Where Custer was concerned luck had little to do with it, arogance and making an enemy of President Grant had everything to do with it. Now, like most history, few if any can really quote facts, but it is very much speculated that Grant purposely sent Custer on his exposition because of two personal reasons. 1 Custer was very much trying to make a name for himself and Grant thought Custer wanted his job as President. 2 Grant was very much iritated with Custer because Custer exsposed Grant's brother for selling supplies meant for the reservations and stealing the funds also meant for the reservations as pertaining to agreements in treaties. It very much embarresed Grant as president as you might imagine. Custer decided to make the most of it and thought he could score a major victory which would make him shine in the publics eyes again after Grant had actually had him demoted in rank. Sitting Bull, Gall, Hump and Crazy Horse had their own ideas about that. Sitting Bull knew they were coming and told everyone so. In his vision he saw soldiers falling head first from the sky. He knew what was coming and how it would turn out. Custer was warned by his own Crow Scouts and he called them cowards for their trouble. Even Custer's scout named  Mitch Bouyer told him it was suicide. Custer's ego made him think himself invincible. He was suppose to wait for Terry and Crook but he wanted glory for himself. He had the mentality of Ferguson Who thought he could run through the whole Lakota Nation with just 80 men. Crazy Horse proved otherwise and Custer learned nothing. To make matters worse for Custer he devided his men though Reno and Benteen testified later that they warned him it was a bad idea. The Lakota ( Sioux ), Tsitsistas  (Cheyenne ), and  Hinonoeino ( Arapaho ) did not run away this time. This time Custer was attacking more than small villages full of old men, children and women. This time the warriors were home and ready and pissed. To you it was a masacre, to Indians it was a victory. It barely took an hour. It is said by those that were there that at first they didn't recognise Custer's body because he had cut his hair short. They did not recognise "Son of the Morning Star" a name given him because he attacked villages at dawn. Custer was found with shots to the left chest and left temple. It is thought by some he commited suicide but never proven.  It was rumoured that Rain in the Face had threatoned to eat Tom Custer's heart but that is just a story with no foundation in truth. Some blame his loss on the single shot rifles issued to his men but the fact remains that if he had just followed orders things would have turned out far differantly. The warriors said most of his men fought bravely though others cried for their mothers. Archeological evidence and first hand accounts of the warriors who fought him have proven there was no real last stand. The end amounted to broken skirmishes till no one was left to fight. It spelled the end for the freedom of the plains tribes though because afterwards they were hunted relentlesly even into Canada. Crazy Horse was bayoneted while his arms were held by Little Big Man and killed while in captivity. He lived for a short time and these are his final words;
 "My friend, I do not blame you for this. Had I listened to you this trouble would not have happened to me. I was not hostile to the white men. Sometimes my young men would attack the Indians who were their enemies and took their ponies. They did it in return. We had buffalo for food, and their hides for clothing and for our tepees. We preferred hunting to a life of idleness on the reservation, where we were driven against our will. At times we did not get enough to eat and we were not allowed to leave the reservation to hunt. We preferred our own way of living. We were no expense to the government. All we wanted was peace and to be left alone. Soldiers were sent out in the winter, they destroyed our villages. The "Long Hair" [Custer] came in the same way. They say we massacred him, but he would have done the same thing to us had we not defended ourselves and fought to the last. Our first impulse was to escape with our squaws and papooses, but we were so hemmed in that we had to fight. After that I went up on the Tongue River with a few of my people and lived in peace. But the government would not let me alone. Finally, I came back to the Red Cloud Agency. Yet, I was not allowed to remain quiet. I was tired of fighting. I went to the Spotted Tail Agency and asked that chief and his agent to let me live there in peace. I came here with the agent [Lee] to talk with the Big White Chief but was not given a chance. They tried to confine me. I tried to escape, and a soldier ran his bayonet into me. I have spoken."
Because of sitting Bull's involvement in the Ghost Dance, after touring in Buffalo Bill's Wild West show, he was ordered arested and killed in the attempt while living peacefully on  the Standing Rock Agency in South Dakota .

[beerbelly]

Those Indian warriors were good fighters! The U S Army was better, they won. Get over it!
                           Beerbelly

[mcwoodduck]

I have heard that one of the reasons for Custer's death was Ammo.
The Cavalry was using Copper cases that got stuck in the single shot rifles and the men had to pry then soft cases out of the breaches.
The Indian also had ammo issues.
The rim fire Henry rifles that were surplused to them only had a limited amount of ammo with them.  Many thought that the Indains would not have many rounds and would save them for hunting.
The indians found ways and chemicals to reload the rimfire rounds.
Many cases littered the battle field with multiple strikes in the rimfire rounds and many of the copper cases from the troopers had knife marks.
There was the whole Custer was an arrogant fool who beleived his press.
At the same time the Indians learned how to fight the Cavalry.  They would dend waves of attacks.
First small attack was to draw fire, the second wave was larger and would hit while the cavalry was trying to reload and with the repeating rifles.  
  Much like thermopoloy it is a lesson in warfare, tactics, weapons and under estamating your enemy.  I think it should have been studied more and fewer Americans would have been killed in battle under estamating more modern battle fields.
I also think the hatred of the Native Americans goes back to the French and Indian war, moved through to the Revolution.
The French and English both used Native Americans as Allies and fought against the Colonialists.
Had the Iraquois Nation fought with the Colonial Army against the British the map and history would have been very different.

[powderman]

The Cavalry was using Copper cases that got stuck in the single shot rifles and the men had to pry then soft cases out of the breaches.



YEP. They were issued 100 rds of rifle ammo, that had never been tested, but only 12 rds of ammo for their  Colt pistols. I understand that all sabers were left behind  to save weight too.
Anybody know what custers 1st big victory was against the Indians??? This big brave man slaughtered 187 old men, women, and children while the braves were away. He was real proud of that. POWDERMAN. 

[Dee]

This is how I feel about the whole Custer incident.


Buffy St. Marie on youtube, Custer  couldn't get to come on but, check it out.

[Spirithawk]

Yep, their rifles and ammo sure didn't help any but it still remains that if Custer had followed orders and waited for Crook and Terry, or at least not devided his forces, it would never have happened. He alone determined his destiny and the sad thing is he took so many with him. And Beerbelly, why must everything be taken out of context with some folks? I simply quoted history and just as easily, after your comment to get over it, can tell you to do the same. Since Custer was being discussed already I only thought it reasonable to post what happened. Not one word I stated can not be verified by multiple sources as fact as well as fact can be known today. Why does that upset you? Why so sensitive? And just for the record, the Cavary were never better fighters they just had far greater numbers. I'm tired of being baited and refuse to be any more so get over that.

Dee, your link didn't work. This the one you were thinking of?   Whoops nope. In being fair and presenting both sides;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1o3YS2CcBs&feature=related

I think this is the one you wanted;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-O7Utyr0n4

From Son of the Morning Star;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1xcn7gKVdI&feature=related

[mcwoodduck]

Years ago I was doing a job at one of the Casinos in Southern California.
The gentleman I met there was wearing a Tee Shirt that had  Three people on the front of the shirt.
I think they were Columbus, Custer, and either Crook or Grant.
It said "your heros, our Enemy".
On the back it had Sitting Bull, Gernamo, and I think Cazy Horse.
It said "Your Enemy, our Heros"
I looked at it and thought MY History.
Yes there were criminal acts done, on both sides.  But it is what we would consider criminal now.  From theft, bio warfare, breach of contract, and genoside both side were guilty. 
Then again you look in the bible and the Isrealites wiped out whole peoples to take/ take back land.  Moving or eliminating competeing populations has gone back thousands fo years.
At what point do we burry old grudges.  I can understand there will never be General Sherman Hotel / Museum in Savanah Ga.
There will not be a General Custer exucitive room in any of the Native American Casinos. 
But when do we stop holding the North Vs The South, the Native Americans Vs Washington / Europeans / Whites
and all become the melting pot that we are.  Taking the best from all coultures and making it a unique America where freedom, liberty and self determination are what has made us a great NATION.
I am not saying we need to forget history.  But we need to divorce ourselves from the personal parts of it. 

[Spirithawk]

Years ago I was doing a job at one of the Casinos in Southern California.
The gentleman I met there was wearing a Tee Shirt that had  Three people on the front of the shirt.
I think they were Columbus, Custer, and either Crook or Grant.
It said "your heros, our Enemy".
On the back it had Sitting Bull, Gernamo, and I think Cazy Horse.
It said "Your Enemy, our Heros"
I looked at it and thought MY History.
Yes there were criminal acts done, on both sides.  But it is what we would consider criminal now.  From theft, bio warfare, breach of contract, and genoside both side were guilty. 
Then again you look in the bible and the Isrealites wiped out whole peoples to take/ take back land.  Moving or eliminating competeing populations has gone back thousands fo years.
At what point do we burry old grudges.  I can understand there will never be General Sherman Hotel / Museum in Savanah Ga.
There will not be a General Custer exucitive room in any of the Native American Casinos. 
But when do we stop holding the North Vs The South, the Native Americans Vs Washington / Europeans / Whites
and all become the melting pot that we are.  Taking the best from all coultures and making it a unique America where freedom, liberty and self determination are what has made us a great NATION.
I am not saying we need to forget history.  But we need to divorce ourselves from the personal parts of it. 

Well said and I agree as long as those acts of the past are no longer being repeated.

[Dee]

duck, the ideology of man is as old as man. Everything you say is true in the regard of wars, but man has a "sin nature" and although technology has changed man has not. We killed each other with bare hands, then rocks, then spears, then arrows, then guns, and now we can melt each other down.
Weapons of war have changed, but man has not. To say different is to be "idealistic" rather than "realistic". Unless God comes and straightens this mess out, we will eventually be using rocks again. It is a matter of time before some idiot pushes the wrong button, or God gets tired of watching us make a bigger mess, and sends a meteor to visit, or some other natural cure for the confusion.
Until then refer to Ecclesiastes Chapter 1 verse 9, because it is the truth no doubt.

[Spirithawk]

duck, the ideology of man is as old as man. Everything you say is true in the regard of wars, but man has a "sin nature" and although technology has changed man has not. We killed each other with bare hands, then rocks, then spears, then arrows, then guns, and now we can melt each other down.
Weapons of war have changed, but man has not. To say different is to be "idealistic" rather than "realistic". Unless God comes and straightens this mess out, we will eventually be using rocks again. It is a matter of time before some idiot pushes the wrong button, or God gets tired of watching us make a bigger mess, and sends a meteor to visit, or some other natural cure for the confusion.

Again, well said. I have often said that should they outlaw guns people would; Either make their own, use clubs or knives, or resort to rocks! I'm not saying all men, but all too many, are never satisfied with what they have and in their conquest to get more they'll do what ever they think they can get away with.

[powderman]

Then again you look in the bible and the Isrealites wiped out whole peoples to take/ take back land.



TRUE, but that was because God ordered them destroyed because they were idol worshipers and had sinned with animals, hence the killing of all living things, as God commanded. Today, it's done mostly for greed. The Godless ones murder innocents because they are taught from birth to do so, satan controls them.
Indians were slaughtered because of white mens greed, they wanted the land, gold, silver, etc. I hope history has taught us something. POWDERMAN. 

[Swampman]

And the NDNs were just as greedy and murderous as the non-NDNs.

[Spirithawk]

And the NDNs were just as greedy and murderous as the non-NDNs.

LOL Swamp you can sure get ridiculous in your attempts to bait. Now why in the world, out of the clear blue, would you make such a pathetic statement if for no other reason than to start trouble. Could you be any more obvious? A person would think you were fishing for catfish your bait stinks so bad. Just giving you a heads up. There is no point in my trying to instore logic in someone who would rather make statements based on personal bias and bigatry. Sooo, from now on all you'll get from me is unspoken pity. For someone so proud of their Indian blood you sure take every oportunity to make pot shots at all Indians in general. I hear you slander them way more than anything good coming out of your mouth. You have a mighty strange way of showing your pride which apears to be just one more of your fantasies. My ears are now closed to your pathetic attempts at starting trouble. I am not about to stoop to your level.

[mcwoodduck]

duck, the ideology of man is as old as man. Everything you say is true in the regard of wars, but man has a "sin nature" and although technology has changed man has not. We killed each other with bare hands, then rocks, then spears, then arrows, then guns, and now we can melt each other down.
Weapons of war have changed, but man has not. To say different is to be "idealistic" rather than "realistic". Unless God comes and straightens this mess out, we will eventually be using rocks again. It is a matter of time before some idiot pushes the wrong button, or God gets tired of watching us make a bigger mess, and sends a meteor to visit, or some other natural cure for the confusion.
Until then refer to Ecclesiastes Chapter 1 verse 9, because it is the truth no doubt.

My Step Mother had an Aunt.  About 2 Million years old that when I first met her she was dragging me all over her house, pulling out this book or that handing me this or that off the shelf and telling me "You ought ta know your History"
It was years later that I understood that history was written by the winners, there are many factors to the historical event and there are many ramafications to those events.  And Wile not many believe in the cause many will join to fit in or not be singled out.
I know 1/2 of my history.  My mother was adopted in 1944 around Ft. Worth.  So I do not know.  Heck Dee, you could be a cousin.  And not knowing I think has opened my mind up to seeing history from both and all sides and not look at it as either a victor or a victom.
I could be both.  Then what, do I hate my self?
Dee as you said.  Man is man and what has motivated him when he lived in caves to now, man is man.  knowing what has motivated him to move, attack, and flee.  Will help to deal with current and future history.  I am not afraid of a country or leader that wants nuklear weapons.  i do fear the country or leader that wants one for each of his enemies. 

What are NDNs?

[Spirithawk]

duck, the ideology of man is as old as man. Everything you say is true in the regard of wars, but man has a "sin nature" and although technology has changed man has not. We killed each other with bare hands, then rocks, then spears, then arrows, then guns, and now we can melt each other down.
Weapons of war have changed, but man has not. To say different is to be "idealistic" rather than "realistic". Unless God comes and straightens this mess out, we will eventually be using rocks again. It is a matter of time before some idiot pushes the wrong button, or God gets tired of watching us make a bigger mess, and sends a meteor to visit, or some other natural cure for the confusion.
Until then refer to Ecclesiastes Chapter 1 verse 9, because it is the truth no doubt.

My Step Mother had an Aunt.  About 2 Million years old that when I first met her she was dragging me all over her house, pulling out this book or that handing me this or that off the shelf and telling me "You ought ta know your History"
It was years later that I understood that history was written by the winners, there are many factors to the historical event and there are many ramafications to those events.  And Wile not many believe in the cause many will join to fit in or not be singled out.
I know 1/2 of my history.  My mother was adopted in 1944 around Ft. Worth.  So I do not know.  Heck Dee, you could be a cousin.  And not knowing I think has opened my mind up to seeing history from both and all sides and not look at it as either a victor or a victom.
I could be both.  Then what, do I hate my self?
Dee as you said.  Man is man and what has motivated him when he lived in caves to now, man is man.  knowing what has motivated him to move, attack, and flee.  Will help to deal with current and future history.  I am not afraid of a country or leader that wants nuklear weapons.  i do fear the country or leader that wants one for each of his enemies. 

What are NDNs?

NDN = Indian  mcwoodduck, you ever get to Branson I'd enjoy talking history with you over a cup of coffee. I enjoy talking history with someone who's views aren't based in hate nor ignorance.

[Victor3]

Well said and I agree as long as those acts of the past are no longer being repeated.

 Unfortunately, I think we can forget about that happening. Evil men will gain power by killing just as they always have.

 Germany was at the height of European culture when Hitler came to power. The Russians killed more of their own people than Hitler could have hoped to. Then there was China's Great Leap Forward/Cultural Revolution. The Rwandan genocide happened only 15 years ago.

 Won't be long until the next big killing spree if history's any indicator...

[Dee]

Germany might have been at their cultural height (don't know) but they were starving, and their money was near worthless is how, and when, Hitler came to power. He was a smooth talking ex-Catholic Priest wanna be, that promised them food, and hope. He did not as they say now "WASTE A CRISIS".

[mcwoodduck]

duck, the ideology of man is as old as man. Everything you say is true in the regard of wars, but man has a "sin nature" and although technology has changed man has not. We killed each other with bare hands, then rocks, then spears, then arrows, then guns, and now we can melt each other down.
Weapons of war have changed, but man has not. To say different is to be "idealistic" rather than "realistic". Unless God comes and straightens this mess out, we will eventually be using rocks again. It is a matter of time before some idiot pushes the wrong button, or God gets tired of watching us make a bigger mess, and sends a meteor to visit, or some other natural cure for the confusion.
Until then refer to Ecclesiastes Chapter 1 verse 9, because it is the truth no doubt.

My Step Mother had an Aunt.  About 2 Million years old that when I first met her she was dragging me all over her house, pulling out this book or that handing me this or that off the shelf and telling me "You ought ta know your History"
It was years later that I understood that history was written by the winners, there are many factors to the historical event and there are many ramafications to those events.  And Wile not many believe in the cause many will join to fit in or not be singled out.
I know 1/2 of my history.  My mother was adopted in 1944 around Ft. Worth.  So I do not know.  Heck Dee, you could be a cousin.  And not knowing I think has opened my mind up to seeing history from both and all sides and not look at it as either a victor or a victom.
I could be both.  Then what, do I hate my self?
Dee as you said.  Man is man and what has motivated him when he lived in caves to now, man is man.  knowing what has motivated him to move, attack, and flee.  Will help to deal with current and future history.  I am not afraid of a country or leader that wants nuklear weapons.  i do fear the country or leader that wants one for each of his enemies. 

What are NDNs?

NDN = Indian  mcwoodduck, you ever get to Branson I'd enjoy talking history with you over a cup of coffee. I enjoy talking history with someone who's views aren't based in hate nor ignorance.

I was thinking it stood for three words Like Non Domesticated Natives, Northern Danish Ninnys,  Don't know
Are we still allowed to use Indian as a term?
If and when I head to Mo.  I will definatly buy you a cup of coffee.

[Spirithawk]

I was thinking it stood for three words Like Non Domesticated Natives, Northern Danish Ninnys,  Don't know
Are we still allowed to use Indian as a term?
If and when I head to Mo.  I will definatly buy you a cup of coffee.

LOL Bud, go ahead and use Indian. I think you'll do so inocently enough. Just as long as you know we really aren't. I think I've made it clear enough that it's not the correct name and that was my only point about it. I was just trying to educate folks. Preferably though, what I'll do myself, is refer to tribes  by their true names as much as possible and let folks try and figure out then who I'm talking about. lol I'll even use the term Indian, as a whole, just to keep other's from crying about the term First Nation. All the problems in the world and they choose two simple words to cry about. Isn't it funny how some took so much issue with that term while not even attempting to understand, nor care about, my feelings for the term Indian which is way more widely used and much farther off the mark? And thinking like that is just a bit self righteous in my book.

I'll accept that cup of coffee only if you'll allow me to buy you one in return

[mcwoodduck]

Sure But I don't drink coffee.
Has to be something wrong with me.
I do not understand how something that smells that good tastes that bad.

I know Indians are not correct as Columbus thopught he found India when he landed.  Not sure what name he would have given the people he met had he understood what he found.
I always took it as similar to the term African, European, Middle Eastern.....
It refers to a group of people from a regoin.  Of course the people from those areas do not call them self that but it is a name given to them.
Much like Germans.  We say German and the Germans call them self Duetch.  It is just a descriptive name.  Heck the Spanish don't call them selves Spanish and I am sure they do not call the people from the sub continent Indian or the country India.  As long as it is a Decriptive term and not a derogatroy term.  No offense is usually given.
I can see how some take offense to First Nation as a term much like some do not like the terms Old World, New World and 3rd World.
How can Africa be the 3rd world when that is where man started?    it is just a term that was set out by someone in a language to mean something.  A word.  Not a good one as two seperate groups are being called the same thing.

[rio grande]

Kennewick Man.

http://archaeological-artifacts.suite101.com/article.cfm/kennewick-man----discovery-of-ancient-skeleton

Spirit Cave Man.

"Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins, daughter of Paiute Chief Winnemucca, related many stories about the Si-Te-Cah in her book Life Among the Paiutes. “My people say that the tribe we exterminated had reddish hair. I have some of their hair, which has been handed down from father to son. I have a dress which has been in our family a great many years, trimmed with the reddish hair. I am going to wear it some time when I lecture. It is called a mourning dress, and no one has such a dress but my family."

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/spirit-cave-man/

[mechanic]

When white Europeans first ventured inland to the Appalachians, they discovered a tribe of people who had light hair, green eyes and somewhat European features.  The French called them "Melungeon", which just means mixed race.

Recent testing of their descendands indicate a middle eastern origin, possibly from or near Lebanon.

They had no doubt been in this continent for generations, and their arrival here is still a mystery.

There are many folks today from the Appalachian regions who have ancestry from this people.


I have a grandmother among those.

Another mystery to be explored, but without a definite answer.

Ben

[Spirithawk]

Sure But I don't drink coffee.
Has to be something wrong with me.
I do not understand how something that smells that good tastes that bad.

I know Indians are not correct as Columbus thopught he found India when he landed.  Not sure what name he would have given the people he met had he understood what he found.
I always took it as similar to the term African, European, Middle Eastern.....
It refers to a group of people from a regoin.  Of course the people from those areas do not call them self that but it is a name given to them.
Much like Germans.  We say German and the Germans call them self Duetch.  It is just a descriptive name.  Heck the Spanish don't call them selves Spanish and I am sure they do not call the people from the sub continent Indian or the country India.  As long as it is a Decriptive term and not a derogatroy term.  No offense is usually given.
I can see how some take offense to First Nation as a term much like some do not like the terms Old World, New World and 3rd World.
How can Africa be the 3rd world when that is where man started?    it is just a term that was set out by someone in a language to mean something.  A word.  Not a good one as two seperate groups are being called the same thing.

How about a cold glass of sweet tea? To be honest I'm not big on coffee either.

[mcwoodduck]

Diet Coke, and your on.

[Spirithawk]

Diet Coke, and your on.

Diet Coke for you then and tea for me. 

[slim rem 7]

 i just want offend the native americans..i believe they suffered greatly so a great nation of freedom could be born..many a native american has fought in her wars..i think its a possibility that they may play a powerful part in the preservation of this great nation,an the freedom it represents to the world..if it is to survive.
 now won t that be just a little ironic..just my thoughts on it.. slim
 and he who would be first shall be last an the last shall be first..

[SHOOTALL]

Native , first or any name they wish to go by have helped build and protect America. The slaves and indentured servants along with all who came here have also helped some willing some not so willing . At this point there seem to be none still alive when the transitions were going on . I would suggest we all start to work togather and get this country back on track or none of us freedom loving people will like what we end up with.

[myronman3]

well if it ruffles feathers and makes people mad then i will use First Nation from here on out.  who knew getting their goats could be so easy?   

[JPShelton]

Osiyo,

Fascinating thread, this was -particularly from the perspective of an enrolled citizen of the Cherokee Nation and one who raised to believe that my birthright -the ability to make legitamate claim to being fully Anikituwah- had almost everything to do with obligation to Unetlahnahi to meet my cultrual responsibility to live gadugi (used idiomatically to mean selfless sacrafice for the betterment of the common good) and NOTHING to do with sitting on my ook, waiting for a handout.

I am one generation removed from a by-blood relation listed on the Final Rolls of the Dawes Commission -my maternal grandfather, who was born in a more fully soveriegn Cherokee Nation in 1898.  He is listed on said rolls erroneously as "full blood" even though my ancestral blood quantum has risen and fallen over the generations.   He could have called himself "Indian" if he wanted to, but he didn't and never would.  He felt he had as much in common with other kinds of "Indians" as any full blood Yoneg would -which in some cases, isn't much.  He was, however, very proud to refer to himself as Anikituwah and longed for the resotration of the more fully sovereign Cherokee Nation of his birth, and he kept longing for it right up to the day he died.

I, likewise, wouldn't refer to myself as "Indian" or "Native" or anything other than Anikituwah, even if my CDIB card reflected a full blood quantum.  I do describe myself as a full citizen of the Cherokee Nation, and I do so with pride.  And I will continue to do so, as long as we've got that one word in Tsalagi (gadugi) so central to our culture that we put it on the lower right hand corner of our license plates - one word which takes 9 Yonega words to express the same thought.

My great grandfather is also listed on the Final Rolls of the Dawes Commission, but listed as deceased.  Why?  Because rather than trade away his language, culture, heritage, and country for an allotment of 160 of land that he had probably never seen, he determined to die a Cherokee in a still soveriegn Cherokee Nation.  Such is patriotism, that it causes rational people to sometimes act in ways that future generations view as irrational.

I know a lot of fullblood Yonegs who would trade a whole lot more in terms of the tangible than culture, heritage, and national identity for the fre and clear patent to 160 acres of land, yet assume that my Anikituwah heritage is something that I identify with solely for personal gain.  My great grandfather would rather die than take a handout.  My grandfather wasn't much different.  Neither am I.  I am no more Anikituwah than they were, nor am I less.
 

Dodadagohvi,
JP

[Spirithawk]

Osiyo,

Fascinating thread, this was -particularly from the perspective of an enrolled citizen of the Cherokee Nation and one who raised to believe that my birthright -the ability to make legitamate claim to being fully Anikituwah- had almost everything to do with obligation to Unetlahnahi to meet my cultrual responsibility to live gadugi (used idiomatically to mean selfless sacrafice for the betterment of the common good) and NOTHING to do with sitting on my ook, waiting for a handout.

I am one generation removed from a by-blood relation listed on the Final Rolls of the Dawes Commission -my maternal grandfather, who was born in a more fully soveriegn Cherokee Nation in 1898.  He is listed on said rolls erroneously as "full blood" even though my ancestral blood quantum has risen and fallen over the generations.   He could have called himself "Indian" if he wanted to, but he didn't and never would.  He felt he had as much in common with other kinds of "Indians" as any full blood Yoneg would -which in some cases, isn't much.  He was, however, very proud to refer to himself as Anikituwah and longed for the resotration of the more fully sovereign Cherokee Nation of his birth, and he kept longing for it right up to the day he died.

I, likewise, wouldn't refer to myself as "Indian" or "Native" or anything other than Anikituwah, even if my CDIB card reflected a full blood quantum.  I do describe myself as a full citizen of the Cherokee Nation, and I do so with pride.  And I will continue to do so, as long as we've got that one word in Tsalagi (gadugi) so central to our culture that we put it on the lower right hand corner of our license plates - one word which takes 9 Yonega words to express the same thought.

My great grandfather is also listed on the Final Rolls of the Dawes Commission, but listed as deceased.  Why?  Because rather than trade away his language, culture, heritage, and country for an allotment of 160 of land that he had probably never seen, he determined to die a Cherokee in a still soveriegn Cherokee Nation.  Such is patriotism, that it causes rational people to sometimes act in ways that future generations view as irrational.

I know a lot of fullblood Yonegs who would trade a whole lot more in terms of the tangible than culture, heritage, and national identity for the fre and clear patent to 160 acres of land, yet assume that my Anikituwah heritage is something that I identify with solely for personal gain.  My great grandfather would rather die than take a handout.  My grandfather wasn't much different.  Neither am I.  I am no more Anikituwah than they were, nor am I less.
 

Dodadagohvi,
JP

Siyo, it's good to have someone who truly understands where I'm coming from. My family escaped from the Trail Where All Cried and hid in the southern tip of Illinois and Missouri. It took me forever to find my ggrandfather's name on a roll but I finally did. Most refused to be listed. My father died when I was young and it's been a struggle to learn my heritage but it's been a life long journey that, I feel, will never end because there is so much to know. I still struggle with our lanquage.  I too prefer the name AniKituhwagi. That is our ancient name , The People of Kituhwa ", as you know. My heart cries for and yet is very proud of men such as your grandfather. I've been trying to tell folks here what it means to be AniKituhwagi but for the most part it has fallen on deaf ears. Wado, for your words from the heart.

Dodadagohvi
  SH ^i^