Author Topic: Ancient Americans (Read 4232 times)

myronman3 · « **Reply #60 on:** July 08, 2010, 01:08:33 PM »

Quote

he determined to die a Cherokee in a still soveriegn Cherokee Nation.

i admire that. he definately deserves to be remembered.

Swampman · « **Reply #61 on:** July 08, 2010, 04:42:34 PM »

I'm not going to use a misnomer to be PC. Each to his own. Rewriting history is nothing new.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #62 on:** July 08, 2010, 05:15:59 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on July 08, 2010, 04:42:34 PM

I'm not going to use a misnomer to be PC. Each to his own. Rewriting history is nothing new.

Nor will I any more use a misleading one just for the sake of making someone else happy. I wonder though, why would you use Indian, choosing one misnomer over another, while crying it's wrong for someone else to do what you see as the same? I'll from here on use Tsalagi Ani Yuhnwiya Ani Kituhwagi, Dine', Lakota, Teton, Siksika, Gaigwu, Muskogee, Kanienkehaka, Onandowaga, ect. ect., ect. so there can be no doubt exactly who I'm talking about or is there also a problem with us using our true names over those given us by someone else?

Swampman · « **Reply #63 on:** July 08, 2010, 05:38:32 PM »

If we choose a name, in a year or 2 it won't be acceptable. Since Indian has been in use since 1492, it's been in use longer than any other name. I tend to use Native American because it was the first and most commonly understood PC misnomer.

myronman3 · « **Reply #64 on:** July 08, 2010, 05:43:57 PM »

just when things start turning civil, swampy has to come back and stir the pot.

and swampy, i still am waiting for you to answer my question.....but i know you dont have an answer for it so i wont hold my breath. i still wonder who made you "Grand poohba of the truth"? i know, i know, nobody. and that is o.k., because we dont put any stock in your ramblings. so dont feel too bad.

Swampman · « **Reply #65 on:** July 08, 2010, 05:46:32 PM »

Indigenous Peoples is the most correct term except America has no indigenous people. We all came from Europe.

myronman3 · « **Reply #66 on:** July 08, 2010, 05:54:39 PM »

perhaps YOU came from europe. I was born in Texas, which is a long way from europe. sheesh.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #67 on:** July 08, 2010, 06:01:15 PM »

Realy? So Indian has been used longer than any name a tribe has called itself? And just because it has been used a long time somehow that makes it right simply because that is what you choose to call someone else? Why does what you choose to call a person take presidence over what they choose to call themselves? Why is that Swamp? You can cry about the term First Nation but Ani Kituhwagi, and other such names were in use way before Columbus. How can you say a name used for hundreds of years won't be acceptable in a year or two. Why, because you don't like it? Nawww Swamp, not biting on your bait. I think in this discussion the truth is evident for all to see fairly clearly. Predjudice has a way of revealing itself. I think I'll just let you talk to yourself.

myronman3 · « **Reply #68 on:** July 08, 2010, 06:06:40 PM »

just be happy he aint talkin 'bout religon....that will really make you want to vomit.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #69 on:** July 08, 2010, 06:33:44 PM »

Quote from: myronman3 on July 08, 2010, 06:06:40 PM

just be happy he aint talkin 'bout religon....that will really make you want to vomit.

Where from in Texas? My mother's family was from Panola County. They settled there at the end of the Civil War.

myronman3 · « **Reply #70 on:** July 08, 2010, 06:52:20 PM »

bridge city.

Swampman · « **Reply #71 on:** July 09, 2010, 04:32:59 AM »

Well anyway consider picking up Ancient American magazine. It's well worth reading.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #72 on:** July 12, 2010, 10:18:24 AM »

This is getting funny - Swampman says because a boat load of sailors mistake a group of people in North America for people from India that it is correct to call them indians . Was rum involved ? We got a group of decendents from those mistaken people who had never heard the term american before those sailors came calling themselves Native Americans and others calling themselves First Americans . I feel this started with the idea of Black American .
When ya'll decide to be American and put being American first we will be a great diverse people with the goal of freedom . Remember your history as it is valuable but don't expect a free ride because it was not always fair !

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #73 on:** July 12, 2010, 10:55:53 AM »

Interesting thread, A history channel program a couple of weeks ago addressed who the first americans were. Americas as a whole to include north and south. They cited evidence of japanese styled pottery in Chile, Polynesian style canoes in California (stitched planks vs. dugout), a host of visitors and settlement on the east coast of vikings,celts and a western european peoples called the solutreans, to one of the lost tribes of Israel. They went into jawbone structures of flat(caucasian peoples) and curved or "rockered" for the folks of eastern or asian descent, (those who crossed via the land bridge).I suppose alotof the hypothesis and theories have not been founded as verbatum yet, and too much time has probably gone by to set in stone. Certainly not my area of expertise but interesting in historical information. I am sure that alot of folks had the abilities to travel and perhaps build long lasting settlements here. I suppose it comes down too which ones endured and were able to prosper. A very interesting topic to be sure, one I never tire of reading about.

nw_hunter · « **Reply #74 on:** July 12, 2010, 11:01:01 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 12, 2010, 10:18:24 AM

This is getting funny - Swampman says because a boat load of sailors mistake a group of people in North America for people from India that it is correct to call them indians . Was rum involved ? We got a group of decendents from those mistaken people who had never heard the term american before those sailors came calling themselves Native Americans and others calling themselves First Americans . I feel this started with the idea of Black American .
When ya'll decide to be American and put being American first we will be a great diverse people with the goal of freedom . Remember your history as it is valuable but don't expect a free ride because it was not always fair !

All this talk about who was here first.......Who is a native , who is not............BLA,BLA, BLA!

I think it was that famous (UH) make that infamous American.....Rodney King
Many will recall , that said...... “Why can’t we all just get along?”

Recent advances in the neuro sciences have established an irrefutable fact: Human beings are emotional, not rational.

TXSPIKE · « **Reply #75 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:34:00 AM »

Well,if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation and make sure you click on all the links too.

Dee · « **Reply #76 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:15:29 AM »

Quote

he determined to die a Cherokee in a still soveriegn Cherokee Nation.

i admire that. he definately deserves to be remembered.
[/quote]

I look at all this effort put forth to DEFAME a tribe of people, and wonder WHY? Africa for example is PRESUMED AND PERPORTED to be the "cradle of civilization" by some, and Swampy's original post is for nothing more than to DEFAME the American Indian.
The most OBVIOUS QUESTION concerning Africa being the "cradle of civilization" is HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? There is no written history to prove, or disprove this THEORY. The DEBATE here on the American Indian, and were they "FIRST NATION" is much like the Abbott and Costello skit "WHO'S ON FIRST". REALLY? WHO THE HELL CARES?
With Spirithawk's researching OUR PEOPLE (I'm half Cherokee), I view this much like someone looking up their family tree, example the Smith, or Jones lineage, where did they come from, how long were they there, except on a much larger, broader scale.
I see many times FOLKS THAT ARE NOT INTERESTED in such research, seem to resent it, and take more effort in disproving the researcher, than actually reading the persons' writings.
As far as "carbon dating" I have read as many scientists DISPROVING the method as inaccurate as those believing in it's accuracy, and I tend to agree. Conditions of the soil, climate, and myriads of other things can give different readings of the same material over the same period of time.
Given my Biblical beliefs which I state but, never debate, I don't buy the 13,000 year skull bunk, and will say, their SPECULATING, as is everyone here.

Swampman · « **Reply #77 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:45:29 AM »

"Swampy's original post is for nothing more than to DEFAME the American Indian."

Why would I defame my own kind?

I just don't whine and want sympathy from the rest of my kin.

myronman3 · « **Reply #78 on:** July 13, 2010, 05:21:12 AM »

you are trying to elevate yourself over another for God-knows-what reason. and the funny thing is, you keep sinking lower with every attempt.

Swampman · « **Reply #79 on:** July 13, 2010, 01:25:15 PM »

For the life of me, nothing could be futher from my intentions.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #80 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:11:17 PM »

I'm too dang ill to get into this again but I'll ask a few simple questions of you Swamp. You keep saying "Your People", can you tell me anything about Cherokee beliefs, every day life, customs, ceremonies, clans, political structure of the Nation, religion or problems faced by modern Cherokees....without looking it up on line or quoting a book? Can you tell me what makes the AniKituhwagi your people? Because you're an 1/8 ? Gee, if you're such an expert now, and that's all it takes...that and reading books, then imagine if you here 1/4! The Elders of the AniKituhwagi Nation could forget all they know because they'd have you to tell them what's so. Sorry but it iritates me that the majority of what is beeing said is from, I read this, I read that, this report says such and such, ect, ect, ect! Try living the life of a people before you claim to know them. Try seeing and learning things first hand. Gee, I read that Elvis is alive and living in Bermuda! Must be true, after all I read it! All Indians say "How!" too! Has to be true...I saw it on tv and in several movies! Now please don't even try to tell me Big Foot isn't real. After all I've seen too many "scientific reasearches that say he is! I've read he is, and saw it on tv too, so it has to be so....right?

The history of the AniKituhwagi Nation has been handed down by word of mouth through the centuries. As has that of the other Nations. Excuse me if I put more importance in the words of my ancesters than something you read. If you can't accept that, nor understand it, then it's your problem not mine. Here's something THAT I READ a while back that just might be true though....researchers are now finding that the "Indian" versions of history here come much closer to the truth than what has previously been written. A perfect example is the Custer fiasco. The Lakota knew what they were talking about. Only took a bit over 100 years, a very exspensive and exstensive series of archeological studies and simply asking the Lakota to finally figure that out. Gee, imagine that? The history books had it wrong and the Lakota had it right. Who'd have ever thought such a thing? Aparently not a few folks here. I've been trying my best to get some here to just understand the differance between pitty and putting aside stereotype based feelings so that they might actually learn something about a people that, right or wrongly, is forced to share this land with them. I guess that was too much to ask. Anyone willing to learn something can simply pm me. I'll do my best to answer honestly and acurately. Other than that go on debating about what you heard or read. Of course it's your right if you choose to yourself but pardon me if I don't put much faith in it.

Swampman · « **Reply #81 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:16:52 PM »

I put more stock in facts than traditions. I like to belive that my genes are not a good reason to be biased against the facts.

I have no wish to be an expert, but I do wish to be informed. I don't seek to be "listened to" or tell others what to do.

Men have been here in America for over 13,000 years and that's pre-Clovis.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #82 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:27:35 PM »

I think I made my point quite clearly and without need to say more other than to wish you luck trying to make your's. Sure they're facts Swamp, after all YOU read them so they must be so right? As I pointed out quite clearly, your history books are stuffed full of your kind of "FACTS" and are being proven more and more wrong every day while the poor primitive "Indian" is being proven more and more right. Now that is a fact for you to sleep on. You aren't going to change your mind for me nor anyone else. That's your perogative if you so wish but hey, but guess what? I'm not throwing away centuries of passed down knowledge so you can pat yourself on the back. And that Swamp, IS A FACT! You know Swamp, it apears that if you read it it's fact, simply because you read it, but if someone else actually lived it then in your mind it couldn't be true. Why is that?

Swampman · « **Reply #83 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:41:09 PM »

DNA science and great current archeology were the facts I was refering to.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #84 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:50:02 PM »

Hmmmm, here's a question for you. You keep refering to your opinions as facts, based on facts that you read, correct so far? Then maybe you could exsplain why the very people quoting those "facts", as you call them, keep refering to them as speculation, theory, and hypothesis? I don't know about your dictionary but mine defines fact a bit diferantly. I need to rest, so I'm done. Go read a book Swamp, learn some more facts and while you're at it say hello to Elvis!

Swampman · « **Reply #85 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:02:22 PM »

I'm not the only one curious about 13,000 year old European and Polyneisan DNA in North America. I love oral traditions and I study them, but I also love science and the doors it can open.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #86 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:12:22 PM »

Really Swamp? You study oral traditions? Care to elaberate? I've asked before but have yet to have gotten an answer as to what actual knowledge you have of the AniKituhwagi ( Cherokee). I'd love to share knowledge of the AniKituhwagi. Tell me, do you know what the name means? How about the ceremonies? Or is it other oral traditions you speak of? You say science has opened many doors. I agree, but you know what Swamp? Science has wrongfully closed just as many doors and shrouded others in theory, speculation and hypothesis. Hmmm, there's those words again. Imagine that? Good night Swamp, sweet dreams.

Swampman · « **Reply #87 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:34:21 PM »

Many people prefer oral traditions. That's ok too. We just have to realize that they are just that.

myronman3 · « **Reply #88 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:51:39 PM »

he is just baiting you spirithawk. you are wasting your time giving him thought out, well expressed and presented points. in turn you get another jab from swampy. dont waste your breathe or energy. you would be much better served getting some rest and keeping your stress level down. i hope you feel alot better very soon.

gstewart44 · « **Reply #89 on:** July 13, 2010, 05:26:36 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on July 13, 2010, 04:02:22 PM

I'm not the only one curious about 13,000 year old European and Polyneisan DNA in North America. I love oral traditions and I study them, but I also love science and the doors it can open.

Don't fret Swampman, science has already opened the door for you. The DNA you are referring to in North America was here originally and left this continent and went eastward to Europe and westward across the Pacific. I read it somewhere.