Author Topic: Indian Idolization?  (Read 4071 times)

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Offline RB1235

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Indian Idolization?
« on: June 30, 2010, 03:15:32 PM »
Wondering why it seems where ever you go a lot of people want to claim Indian heritage. During the westward expansion many whites took Indian wives. There were not that many women out west. Many squaws were bartered for a jug of whiskey, some pelts, blankets, a pony a knife, gold, furniture,,,,,, the list goes on and on. No doubt many of the westward travelers whether it be the gold rushers, fur traders, mountain men or frontiersmen traded for brides. No doubt many people have descended from the whites of those days. And also the more current acceptance of intermarriage. I wonder why the worship of Indian heritage? Is it more white guilt?

People throughout history have possessed the ability for self reliance. There is not one thriving people that have not had the ability to progress. History shows those civilizations that do not advance with the times perish. It is debatable in what year foreigners came to America. But whether Europeans or Vikings, they had metal and the wheel. Also depending on the year they would have had firearms. Sticks and stones did little against current weapons of the time. The lack of long distance ships did little for immunity. Every continent had indigenous people that were slaughtered for their land and the bounty it possessed. So why do Americans revere the civilization that was 5000 years behind the rest of the world? Everyone's ancestors walked the same path as the Indians. Most just did it several thousand years before.

I do not wish for this subject to infuriate. I am just curious as to why? I know we have some full bloods and  a whole lot more part bloods here to enlighten me.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2010, 03:31:58 PM »
I'm proud of (and interested in) all of my heritage.  My mother wasn't and denied that she had native American blood.  Most of all I'm proud to be an American.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2010, 03:35:55 PM »
To many it's the disillusionment with the modern world. Take a good look around you at what civilization and progress has given us and you'll soon realise we've lost more than has been gained. Then consider that "Indian" children were forced to go to schools where their hair was cut, they were forbidden to speak their own languages, they were forbbiden to speak of their customs, religion, and ceremonies. They were even refused contact with their own parents. Their identities were earased and they were made over in their conquerers image. Many of those are still alive today. Just ask my friend Russell Means.  I'll give you a challenge. Name one single treaty, out of hundreds, that the US Government kept? Trick question because it can't be done. " Indians" are proud for the same reasons any other member of a race is proud of their heritage. It's just ours was forced from us and we strive to get as much back as we can. Did you know that ours is the only religion in the world where it's required to have a Government permit to practice it? Most think the Indian Wars ended long ago but they never did. They are just being fought in diferant ways.  

Offline Swampman

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2010, 03:53:09 PM »
I don't feel that we lost more than we gained.  Neither side kept the treatys.

"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline RB1235

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2010, 04:03:51 PM »
Perhaps it is American culture as well? No doubt we have all heard of the union forces not wanting to waste bullets on the women and children. Wont get to graphic due to the nature of this site, but sometimes none were left alive in a village. The trail of tear goes without saying. All the stories of the rotten meat, the tainted blankets and such while on the reservations. No doubt they were treated with severe cruelty. But the same thing can be said on every continent. And this is actually going on today in places, not a few hundred years ago. Yet the indigenous people, if they still exist, are not revered in such a way as in America. That is what I am searching for. Why the reverence? Sympathy for actions I had no control over have no bearing in my mind. Empathy is a given. No race should suffer just for existing, or possessing. I thank you both for your calm comments. Please add more.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2010, 04:07:12 PM »
Not going there Swamp. It's a matter of record. Yes we fought back against that which was forced upon us. I guess you would have meekly accepted. I'm of a differant caliber. We haven't lost anything Swamp? The rivers and streams are clean and pure? The forests abundant and wildlife not pressed into smaller and smaller areas? Concrete is your preferance over Mother Earth under your feet? Everyone is breathing clean air and in touch with the Creator?  The Nation's not on the verge of collapse due to coruption from within?

 You who are so wise must know that different nations have different conception of things. You will not therefore take it amiss if our ideas of the white man's kind of education happens not to be the same as yours. We have had some experience of it.

      Several of our young people were brought up in your colleges. They were instructed in all your sciences; but, when they came back to us, they were all bad runners, ignorant of every means of living in the woods, unable to bear either cold or hunger. They didn't know how to build a cabin, take a deer, or kill an enemy. They spoke our language imperfectly.

They were therefore unfit to be hunters, warriors, or counsellors; they were good for nothing.

We are, however, not the less obliged for your kind offer, though we decline accepting it. To show our gratefulness, it the gentleman of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we will take great care with their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them.

Canassatego - Treaty of Lancaster


As a child, I understood how to give; I have forgotten that grace since I became civilized. I lived the natural life, whereas now I now live the artificial. Any pretty pebble was valuable then, every growing tree an object of reverence.

Now I worship with the white man before a painted landscape whose value is estimated in dollars! Thus the Indian is reconstructed, as the natural rocks are ground to powder and made into artificial blocks that may be built into the walls of modern society.


Charles Alexander Eastman (Ohiyesa )






Offline Swampman

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2010, 04:11:52 PM »
Wandering off topic.  I guess it isn't possible to stick with historical facts.  You guys have fun.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2010, 04:14:10 PM »
Thought you might enjoy this story passed from grandfather to father to son;

THE LEGEND OF TSALI
This is the legend of Tsali. He and his family were real people who once lived in a real place. I call this story a legend because of how he became a symbol of his people. Tsali stands as a symbol of courage, loyalty, and devotion of all the Cherokee. It is a story that you should know........SH ^i^
 Long ago, when the troubles of the Cherokee began,the ordinary Cherokee did not understand that anything was really wrong. All they knew was that their tribal chiefs traveled back and forth to the white man's place called Washington a lot more often than they used to. They also knew that upon the chiefs return there were many many quarrels in the tribal council. Now, up in the hills, where the Ani Kituhwah - the True Cherokees - lived, word of the changes came slowly. Much more slowly than to the Cherokee who lived in the valleys. Many of those living in the hills never left their farms, and when they did they just traveled to the trading post and right back. Few travelers ever ventured into the hills, into the uplands, where the mists of the Smokies shut out the encroaching world. So when the news arived that some of the chiefs had touched the pen, and put their names and marks on a paper, thus agreeing by doing so that this was no longer Cherokee country, the Ani Kituhwah could not believe their ears. Surely, they told each other, the news must be false. No Cherokee, not even one of mixed blood, would sign away his own and his people's lands. But......that's just what the chiefs had done!  The word came that the chiefs were even more devided amongst themselves. Not all of them had touched the pen. Some were not willing to move across the Mississippi, to settle around Fort Gibson in Oklahoma.  "Perhaps we should stay," thought the Ani kituhwah. "Perhaps we will not really have to move."   But they knew in their hearts that false hope was the cruelest  curse of mankind. One of the leaders of the Ani Kituhwah was named Tsali. The white men couldn't pronounce his name so they called him Charlie. Some called him Dutch. They were of the oldest Ani Kituhwah blood and pure 100% Ani Kituhwah. Tsali and his 4 sons  worked two hillsides and the valley between them, in the southern part of the hill country. Tsali and his wife and their youngest son lived in a log house at the head of the hollow. The others lived in homes spread out along the hillsides. They grew corn, beans,a few English peas, squashes, pumpkins, tobacco and cotton. Even a bit of sugar cane and indigo. Tsali's wife kept chickens in a fenced pen away from the house. The women gathered wild hemp and spun it, as well as the wool from their sheep. They did all the work of making cloths for the family. But sometimes, in the winter, when their chores were done the men would help at the looms.  Tsali and his family were not rich, in the dollar sense, not like some who lived in the valleys below. They had hardly ever seen the white man's metal money in their whole lives. But they never lacked for food, shelter, clothing or their love for each other.  The missionaries hardly ever came to the high hills back then. Tsali would take his sons, their wives, and his own wife to the great dance ground where the 7 Ani Kituhwah villages gathered each month at the full moon. There they danced their prayers in time to the beating of the women's terrapin-shell rattles, around and around the mound of packed white ashes on top of which bloomed the eternal fire that was the life of all Cherokees. The occassional missionary would fuss over the children, giving them white men's names. The Cherokee listened politely to the missionaries, for the missionaries were great gossips, and by listening they would learn their news while ignoring the rest. the Cherokee were told by them that this time there was no hope. Everyone would have to move, the Georgia troopers were moving in, all would have to go west. " Never," Tsali answered. "This is our land and we belong to it. Who could take it from us? Who could even want it? Even we have a hard time farming here. Surely only the land in the lower valleys are of any use to the white man." " They want these hills more than anywhere else," answered the missionary. " Don't you see you poor ignorant Indian? They are finding gold! Gold, downstream in Kituhwah country! That means the gold washed there from up here!!!! I have seen it myself! " "You mean this yellow stuff," asked Tsali as he held up a pouch and opened it. The missionary neary went wild at the sight of the yellow dust it contained! " I only have this," Tsali told him. " because I wish to go to the trader to buy my wife some new ribbon for her dress. "  The missionary pleaded with him. Then tried threatoning Tsali. He wanted to be Tsali's partner. together they could be rich. But it was all in vain. Tsali had no interest in the yellow metal, and certainly no interest in being partners with the greedy missionary in anything. So Tsali went down to the trading post to buy the ribbon for his wife's dress. And guess what happened? When the trader saw his pouch of yellow gold dust he went as mad in the head as the missionary. He too wanted to know where it came from. he too wanted, no demanded, to be Tsali's partner. tsali told him as kindly as his patience allowed, " No, I do not wish to be rich in that kind of manor." so saying he just bought the ribbon for his wife's dress and quickly left. A month later the Georgia militia came riding up to Tsali's cabin. They demanded his wife tell them where he could be found. When she demanded to know why they were there they told her their intent was to put them off of their place. That the land no longer belonged to them and it was now open for settlement. Then pointing at the riders with him, the militia captain  told her that likely one of these two men will claim it.  Tsali's wife looked up and there sat the trader and the missionary glaring down at her.  She pleaded that they could not do that, but her words fell on deaf ears. She was told they all would be taken down by the river, herded into the camp there and would be shipped west tomorrow morning. She sent her youngest son to tell Tsali, who was working in the fields with his other sons, the terrible news. Being assured that his wife was alright, at least when the boy left, Tsali told everyone that they would hide that night in the woods. All afternoon his wife waited. All afternoon so did the white men. When it became dark the militia made camp in Tsali's yard.  The white men's women took over the house and cooked the white men's meals.  Then late into the night,  Tsali's wife and his son's wives , heard a soft scratching. The men had come to get them. Take nothing but only your knives they were told and quietly they all slipped away. In the morning the white men found them gone! It was spring, and the weather warm, but the rain fell and soaked the Cherokees. They had brought no food and they dared not fire a gun. One of the daughters-in-law was pregnant and her time very close. His wife was stiff and crippled with rheumatism. They gathered wild greens and the boys trapped small animals and birds in string snares the women made by pulling out their hair and twisting it. In time, they hoped, the white men would give up and go away. But it was not to be so. one of the white men had brought a dog with him. It led the white men to the cave where the Cherokee were hiding. The white men captured the Cherokee and tied the men's hands behind their backs. then they bound them all together. Thus they herded the men and women through the woods, back to Tsali's house. There the Cherokee could not believe their eyes. The troopers had plundered the garden, trampled the plants they didn't eat. The door to the kitchen was ripped from it's frame. another door hung by one hinge. Clothes and bedding lay in filthy piles around the yard. What the militia men could not use.....they ruined! tsali's wife asked what they intended to do with them and was told they all would be taken down to the river to be sent west. Tsali refused to go! Our orders are to shoot all who resist he was told. " Shoot me then!" was his answer. " I will not go" he said quietly " You - nor you - nor you - nobody can make me go." His wife, Amanda, screamed, " If you shoot him then shoot us both! I would not wish to go on living without my husband and I too can not bear to leave my home." Tsali's four sons stepped close to their father. "We die with our parents" they told the captain. Even the youngest boy stood by his brother's sides. But Tsali told him he was too young to die. everyone else had lived a good life but his was still ahead of him. He pleaded with the captain not to shoot the boy.  " Very well" said the captain. " He can't do too much harm if he lives. Let him go take care of his sisters on their way west."  Turning to his men the captain told them to take the boy and young women away. To keep them untill the boats came then load them all aboard. The young boy and women, stunned and silenced, were driven down the road before they could even say goodby, nor would the troopers allow them to look back. Tears streamed from their faces....as behind them they heard the shots........so says, Spirit Hawk ^i^

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2010, 04:17:36 PM »
Please Swamp, enlighten me. What treaty did we break that wasn't first broken by the US Government? Name one. I'll wait patiently but I am growing old so please don't take too long searching the net because you won't find one. If I came to your door, told you your home was now mine, forced you to sign a paper saying so, and told you you must move into a house no one wanted, would you meekly accept it as progress? Or would you fight back?

Offline Swampman

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2010, 04:29:37 PM »
Bob Benge (c. 1762-1794), also known as "Captain Benge" or "The Bench" to frontiersmen, was one of the most feared Cherokee leaders on the frontier during the Chickamauga wars.

He killed and ate my GGGG Uncle.

The native Americans commited hundreds of thousand of henious acts including murder of infants, ripping open the stomachs of pregnant women, shoving red hot musket barrels through living people while keeping them alive over several days, and pouring red hot coals on the faces of living captives while they slept.  There is nothing noble about a race of people.  Some are good and some are bad.

A problem for both sides is that the natives that signed the treaties didn't have the authority to sign.  I still think we are a lot better off than we were then.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2010, 04:42:51 PM »
You know what they say about opinions and finally I think we see why you are so bitter. Ever hear of wounded Knee? Care to tell the true story of Thanksgiving Swamp? One side was defending their homes the other trying to drive them from them. You seem to want to justify that act in the name of progress. If you truly think life today is better well to each their own but you look for things to gain while I mourn what is lost. We aint never going to agree so I leave it at that.

Offline Casull

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2010, 04:44:25 PM »
Quote
There is nothing noble about a race of people.  Some are good and some are bad.

I see a lot of half truths, half lies, and sentimentalism.  But, Swampman is most definitely correct with this one.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2010, 04:46:05 PM »
Thought you might enjoy this story passed from grandfather to father to son;

THE LEGEND OF TSALI
This is the legend of Tsali. He and his family were real people who once lived in a real place. I call this story a legend because of how he became a symbol of his people. Tsali stands as a symbol of courage, loyalty, and devotion of all the Cherokee. It is a story that you should know........SH ^i^
 as behind them they heard the shots........so says, Spirit Hawk ^i^

I think Graybeard started a special place for this type of story, didn't he? "Campfire tales"
I'm not going to get into a pi- - - -g contest with this who is a real American, who came first, or who is more friendly to the environment than someone else. I was born in America, and unlike someone who obtained the highest office in the land, I can and will produce a true birth certificate to prove I am a NATIVE American.

Not really sure about all the blood that flows in my veins, and really don't give a rosy! Call me a mongrel, for all I care, but I am a native American, and I can prove it.

I don't see anything wrong with being proud of ones heritage, and honoring it, but some folks just run it into the ground, and seem to take pleasure in doing so..............So says an American from the NW ;D  
Freedom Of Speech.....Once we lose it, every other freedom will follow.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2010, 04:51:18 PM »
Sorry if I posted the story in the wrong place. I'd be happy to see it moved there. I don't mean to run my pride into the ground, I just don't like seeing it stepped on. I won't contradict anything Swamp posts and I'd apreciate the same courtesy.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2010, 04:53:55 PM »
The one thing I'm not is bitter.  History shows my red forefathers were capable of unspeakable cruelty against whites as well as their own kind.  They owned slaves of all colors.  They were just people.  Nothing more nor less.

I honor them by being a good citizen, soldier, father, and son.  I do not cry for them because I know they wouldn't want me to.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline hillbill

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2010, 05:09:00 PM »
all men are capable of unspeakable cruelty against their own race and all others.history has proven that beyond arguement.no matter who your forefathers were, they did what they had to do to further their own cause and protect their famlies.

Offline bearmgc

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2010, 05:15:52 PM »
I think people want to claim Native heritage, because they want to belong to something. The American family has become fractionalized, members separated by miles and old hurts, differences of opinions, and growing pains. Its not that the Native Culture has such a draw to people, as much as it is visible. Reality though is that the Native culture, like ANY other community has its problems, and sentimentalizing on its good aspects, only makes its problems worse, because they are not dealt with. I agree that there are both good and bad people everywhere. But bottom line, every human being wants to belong, and the search for a family, a group, a religious affliation is evidence of the loneliness, the alienation of people, that is so pervasive today. Additionally, many people do not know their family history, something that our ancestors once deemed precious as a "pedigree." With the blended families of today, single parent households, and dysfunctional parents, many children have no idea where they came from, beyond a grandmother, or maybe not even that. There's a hunger, deep inside, to be connected to our past. And often, when we don't know it or only know a small part of it, we produce it, or embellish it. We romanticize it.

Offline bronco73401

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2010, 05:36:52 PM »
I dont idolize any of my heritage whether it be native american or european. I am proud of all of it. I am American first!

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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2010, 05:46:22 PM »
I think people want to claim Native heritage, because they want to belong to something. The American family has become fractionalized, members separated by miles and old hurts, differences of opinions, and growing pains. Its not that the Native Culture has such a draw to people, as much as it is visible. Reality though is that the Native culture, like ANY other community has its problems, and sentimentalizing on its good aspects, only makes its problems worse, because they are not dealt with. I agree that there are both good and bad people everywhere. But bottom line, every human being wants to belong, and the search for a family, a group, a religious affliation is evidence of the loneliness, the alienation of people, that is so pervasive today. Additionally, many people do not know their family history, something that our ancestors deemed precious as a "pedigree." With the blended families of today, single parent households, and dysfunctional parents, many children have no idea where they came from, beyond a grandmother, or maybe not even that.




Well said. Rather than pat ourselves on the back, while anouncing what a good person we are, is it not better to strive to make a better life for our kind? I may not always exspress myself as clearly as I'd like but bottom line that is what matters to me. The past can't be changed but the future, not only can, it sorely needs to. Anyone happy with the way things are, try spending a week on a reservation such as Pine Ridge or Rosebud. Particularly in the Winter. Then come back and tell me how good things were. How you're happy with the way things are now. The same can be said for your own Ghettos. I'm sorry, but with "Indians" when one had food, everyone ate. When one had shelter, everyone did. To me that was a much better way of life. Of course you are free to disagree. I'm a disabled Vietnam Vet, and I'll tell you now that I'll take offense with anyone who questions my patriotism. But I didn't serve my Country so my people could laquish in poverty either. And please lets not confuse honest pride with idolization.

Offline bearmgc

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2010, 05:52:58 PM »
To make a better life for "our kind", one first has to take the blinders off, and see things as they really are today, not what they perceived them to be years ago. Truth, will set you free.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2010, 05:58:43 PM »
That is very true but it's just as true that if you don't learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it.  ;) Now you I can undestand and talk to.  :) As I said though, want a reality check? Try a week on a rez.

Offline bronco73401

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2010, 06:01:00 PM »

The native Americans commited hundreds of thousand of henious acts including murder of infants, ripping open the stomachs of pregnant women, shoving red hot musket barrels through living people while keeping them alive over several days, and pouring red hot coals on the faces of living captives while they slept.  There is nothing noble about a race of people.  Some are good and some are bad.


I recall an incident in the 1890's at a place called Wounded Knee where the US Army murdered old men, women and children.

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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2010, 06:03:43 PM »
That was just one of many such instances. Custer, for one, was well known for such acts. You shouldn't dwell on them but you shouldn't turn a blind eye either. You should try and learn from them so they aren't repeated. Yes, bad things were done on both sides but tell me, if you corner a dog and try to beat him with a club and that dog then bites you, is it right to blame the dog?

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2010, 06:11:52 PM »
"The noble savage"! Often people studying an ancient culture get a little carried away and see thier subjects as smething more noble than it really is.
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2010, 06:30:23 PM »
It is definitely a problem that keeps things from getting better. The confusing the "Indian" of books and movies with the reality of being " Indian " and the real problems faced by those today. Many want to be " Indian" but shudder at or ignore the reality of it. They just want to be cool. Want to know what it means to be  "Indian" ? Read the words of Floyd Red Crow Westernman, Chief Dan George, Moses Brings Plenty, and Russel Means naming just a few. All friends of mine and wise men who are better spoken than I. Saddly Floyd and Dan passed a while back but they were  truly great men and live on in our hearts. You may think of them only as actors in movies but they were wise men and their words will speak forever. To be fair to RB1235 the reason people try to imulate " Indians " and want to be associated with " Indians " is simply because they think it's cool. The "now" thing to do. But as I said, when faced with the reality of it they quickly lose interest or ignore the truth and go on living a fantasy. They don't want to know about the poverty, the hunger, the harsh reality of trying to survive. Both as a human being and as a race. They prefer to pretend everything is hunky dory. That it's a better place today than when times were much simpler. That lies on paper are equal to truths spoken from the heart. They puff out their chest and say I'm "Indian" while never knowing nor caring what that really means, never doing a thing to help real "Indians" in any way. I'll never understand this but I see it everywhere. Being an "Indian" is not just about blood, it's about a way of life. It's about being conected to all around you put here by the Creator. It's about being conected to the Creator himself. It's about understanding that all things created by him are gifts to be honored and shown the respect they deserve. It's about trying to live that life while being told you can't because that way is in the past. It's about trying to survive in a world now foreign to your nature. Saddly, being "Indian" now is all too often just about trying to survive. If you can call that being sentimental then I'm Very proud to be sentimental and I don't particularly care who knows or aproves of it....Adanvdo Towodi, Tsalagi Aniyuhnwiya Anikituhwagi

Offline myronman3

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2010, 06:38:04 PM »
simply put, the native americans were different and unique culture in the world; and deeply woven into the history of this nation.  some good history, some bad.   
   i applaud anyone who strives to keep family/tribal history and traditions alive.   and especially applaud those who work hard to pass on their heritage to the newer generations. this is very important these days.   this was not done in my family and alot of it is lost in the sands of time. 

Offline jcn59

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2010, 07:01:36 PM »
I don't think Spirithawk or I ever committed any atrocities on anyone.   I didn't have alot of control over what my ancestors did 130 years ago and I don't think he did either.  Oh, and I'm white and proud of it!

I have a bit of trouble with the annihilation of the bison.   Here God set forth a never ending supply of bison for us to dine on, that might last from the beginning of time to the end of time, and we just wasted it.  We're going to have to do pennance for that.

Yes, I know what our excuse was for doing that.   And look at the fine kettle of fish we cooked up since that time.   Get your compass out, face D.C., and say it was worth it.  Watch your nose grow like Pinnocchio.

I wonder how long it will be before our politicians drive us from our lands.   There is no government anymore, just politicos who do what they want with us.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2010, 07:42:06 PM »
Wondering why it seems where ever you go a lot of people want to claim Indian heritage.


I do because I am... No claim, I was born in the skin I have, and the blood that runs through my vain's. My father is full blooded Apache. We are Americans.

I will not get into a pi$8ing contest with anyone on this subject. No one as anything to gain by belittling anyone, or trying to paint a group of people with a broad brush.
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2010, 07:45:32 PM »
Wondering why it seems where ever you go a lot of people want to claim Indian heritage.


I do because I am... No claim, I was born in the skin I have, and the blood that runs through my vain's. My father is full blooded Apache. We are Americans.

I will not get into a pi$8ing contest with anyone on this subject. No one as anything to gain by belittling anyone, or trying to paint a group of people with a broad brush.


Well said.

Offline Heather

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2010, 08:18:05 PM »
Has anyone seen the movie Avatar?  It is about earth "settlers" who go to this other planet and are trying to "modernize" it.  They run into a group of 'native' savages who live in a big tree.  They view their way of life as primitive and need them to move their home so that the "settlers" can get the resources that lie beneath.  One of the 'settlers' gets his mind put into an avatar body in the likeness of these 'savages'.  He goes and lives among them and learns that though their life might seem more 'primitive' they have a vast network that is centralized in this tree and they are connected with the planet as one in harmony.  Since the tree was the central hub for the planet destroying it would destroy everything.  The settlers were too determined for a profit and be damned the environmental consequences. 

It is a neat movie that parallels the situation that occurred when settlers began to settle these now United States.  Though the natives may have seemed more primitive in areas of weaponry and war, their understanding of our relationship to our earth was IMO much more vast.  I am not an 'Indian' expert by any stretch of the imagination, but most wouldn't argue that living off the land in harmony with nature, not wasting any part of an animal, taking care of each other as a community or tribe, and raising your children in the arts of hunting and survival are are a bad thing.

I believe that most don't idolize 'Indians', but simply respect their culture.  I believe that we all know that what happened in history was horrible for everyone involved.  Look at where we are today and can you really say that we haven't went wrong somewhere?  The society that was built by the 'white man' is not a society I am proud to be a part of in many ways.  Our country has turned to greed, laziness, ignorance, and cruelty.  Just reading through this topic is a prime example of the types of people we have in this world.

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