Author Topic: Indian Idolization? (Read 4087 times)

myronman3 · « **Reply #60 on:** July 01, 2010, 05:47:20 PM »

another +1 rep point for dee!

LONGTOM · « **Reply #61 on:** July 01, 2010, 06:38:49 PM »

If I may ask Spirthawk, what percentage CHEROKEE are you.
You may have already stated this but I can't locate it right now.
I am just curious.

I know my GG Grandma was full CHEROKEE on my Father's side but not sure what percentage that makes me.
Never did know but would like to just for my own knowledge.
I have never laid claim to being any part CHEROKEE although I guess I could.

My family is also related to George Washington on my Father's side.
My Grandmother on my Father's side was a cousin to Dizzy Dean.
She was also a Dean.
Our family tree has been documented back to around the late 1300s from Nordic decent down through Ireland, Scotland, England and the US.
Never laid claim to any of these either except the US.
I am an AMERICAN!

It's nice to know one's ancestry.

LONGTOM

Spirithawk · « **Reply #62 on:** July 01, 2010, 07:23:42 PM »

I'm half and was raised traditional Cherokee though my dad died when I was young. I have ancesters listed on three of the rolls but I refuse to register so the Government can tell me who I am. I simply don't need them to do so. I was raised by my grandmother to be proud of my heritage. She taught me what she knew and I've spent my life talking with Elders from both the Cherokee and various Nations. That is how I came to be associated with men such as Moses Brings Plenty, Oglala Lakota and a direct decendent of Crazy Horse. He is an actor and an activist and I've learned much from him and men such as Floyd Red Crow Westernman, Chief Dan George, John Graywolf, Leneord Peltier, and Russel Means. I was asked to write articles by John who was adviser for the History Channel's Wild West Tech. and is curater for the Chumash Museum. He also acted in many episodes of the Wild West Tech. If you are familiar with the show you might remember a stocky grey haired man who portrade such chiefs as Geronimo. He introduced me to Moses and I sought out the others. Anyways, I don't learn what I know from reading, I go to the source. Moses was recently chosen by the History Channel to play Crazy Horse. The first " Indian" to do so. He is also a musician and plays traditional drum with Brule'. He works hard for better understanding between the races and I greatly admire him for his effort. I started my path early and due to a severe heart attack and a triple bypass at an early age due to complications of chemical exsposure in Vietnam I increased my efforts to learn. I was also the traditional Story Teller for a Federaly recognised branch of the Western Cherokee Nation here in Missouri for 3 years untill the heart attack and further complications made it difficult to travel. I'm working on two books. One of traditional stories and one of those I write myself but in the manner of the old stories. Getting off track a bit did you know America was not always called America? It was once called Turtle Island by many of the tribes. It is still thought of as Turtle Island by many. Just because a man's body is conquered doesn't mean his mind was though many have given up out of despair..

LONGTOM · « **Reply #63 on:** July 01, 2010, 07:48:33 PM »

Thanks for the quick reply.
PM coming your way.

Thanks
LONGTOM

Spirithawk · « **Reply #64 on:** July 01, 2010, 07:52:05 PM »

Quote from: LONGTOM on July 01, 2010, 07:48:33 PM

Thanks for the quick reply.
PM coming your way.

Thanks
LONGTOM

You are most welcome. Answer sent.

williamlayton · « **Reply #65 on:** July 02, 2010, 02:16:14 AM »

I have been keeping up with this thread--in interest and wonderment.
The failing of the defense is that it is wrapped in sentimentality--and--sentimentality is really no defense at all, just a pleading for mercy that is too late in coming.
I defy any---any in any part of the world--any individual in the world, to claim an honest clean, heritage, BLOODLINE.
Can't be done---impossible--implausable--screwy thought.
People who have not advanced because they were satisfied with the staus quo are no longer. They were eaten up by those who were more advanced.
The bloodline degraded.
Why is it I see a cry for sympathy--and really--who are you asking for sympathy from/for???
It is the same for the blacks who seek compensation for thier forefathers to be given too them.
HUMMMMM---th agrguements fall on my deaf ears. I have no sympathy for any today for what happened to their fore fathers. they are responsible and they are dead.
Folks---move on and learn from history.
Wars are fought, people are defeated and the bloodlines continue to co-mingle.
Get a life.
Blessings

billy_56081 · « **Reply #66 on:** July 02, 2010, 04:17:32 AM »

I like how folks clain to be a different "race". Unless you are somehow a surviving neandertal, we are only one race, homo sapien sapien. Just because your little group lost out to some other group in history does not make you any different than any others.

You who whine about the past need to remember that you are a product of everything of the past, if one tiny thing changed you would not exist.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #67 on:** July 02, 2010, 04:29:18 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on July 02, 2010, 02:16:14 AM

I have been keeping up with this thread--in interest and wonderment.
The failing of the defense is that it is wrapped in sentimentality--and--sentimentality is really no defense at all, just a pleading for mercy that is too late in coming.
I defy any---any in any part of the world--any individual in the world, to claim an honest clean, heritage, BLOODLINE.
Can't be done---impossible--implausable--screwy thought.
People who have not advanced because they were satisfied with the staus quo are no longer. They were eaten up by those who were more advanced.
The bloodline degraded.
Why is it I see a cry for sympathy--and really--who are you asking for sympathy from/for???
It is the same for the blacks who seek compensation for thier forefathers to be given too them.
HUMMMMM---th agrguements fall on my deaf ears. I have no sympathy for any today for what happened to their fore fathers. they are responsible and they are dead.
Folks---move on and learn from history.
Wars are fought, people are defeated and the bloodlines continue to co-mingle.
Get a life.
Blessings

I know many families that can trace their bloodlines very accurately back several generations. For example the Dine and the Cherokee are very particular about bloodlines. It's a matter of tradition and quite neccesary to know. Blood lines determine what clan you belong to and who you can marry and who you can't. You simply can not judge all because of what others did and you need to know way more about tribes cultures before making such a statement. You just can't take Europoean logic and apply it to "Indian" life. The two are worlds apart. It's foolish to make statements about a culture you know little or nothing about just to make yourself feel better about things. That's like me trying to tell someone of German decent that I know all about his culture because I watched Hogan's Heroes. As far as sympathy, I don't recall asking for any and I know of few that would fit that quote no matter how desperate they got. Most would simply prefer the respect due one human to another and quite frankly, I have a life and am quite happy with it. As far as dwelling on the past I've already stated that unless you know the past, and learn from it, then you are doomed to repeat it. A fact proven in all cultures since the begining of time.
I wish you enough.

myronman3 · « **Reply #68 on:** July 02, 2010, 05:01:24 AM »

with the talk of pure bloodlines, obviously some are getting into semantics. i have no interest in that as it serves no purpose. if one wants to talk of 'pure' the way some of you are (billy and william), taking into account tribes intermingling and such, you would probably be right.
BUT! spirithawk even said in one of his posts, it is more a frame of mind than anything. if i went to germany, had a baby with a german woman, and that child was raised in germany, spoke german and lived in germany all it's life, i would submit to you that child would be a german, despite dad being an american. the same as we are americans; no matter where our parents came from.
if there were more people like spirithawk out there, taking pride in their heritage and making the efforts to pass it on to the next generation AND the rest of us, the rez's wouldnt be in as bad as shape as they are.
who are any of you to dispute or put down spirithawk's pride in his ancestory? not ONCE has he tried to use his statements to elevate himself above any of us. in the short time he has been here i have really enjoyed the flavor he brings to g.b.o.. it is nice to see someone posting positive material for a change of pace. i submit that some of you need to step back and re-access things.

RB1235 · « **Reply #69 on:** July 02, 2010, 05:31:48 AM »

In my opinion a man that is able and will not provide for himself or his family should not exist. In Cherokee County, SC each tribal member over 25 get's a $2000 a month casino check. Some choose to work, some don't. 48 grand a year for a married couple aint' to bad in SC. It is plenty to live with common luxuries and raise children.

Men that will not provide necessities for their family get smacked around the first time. Beaten the second time. And hospitalized each additional time. It is not a perfect solution. But at least the children have full bellies. Men not taking care of their family is obviously a rarity that happens every 4 or 5 years there. Society dictates what is acceptable. If a rez allows the problems some of you have described, the individuals as a whole that live there are to blame because they tolerate it.

bearmgc · « **Reply #70 on:** July 02, 2010, 06:12:33 AM »

Quote from: myronman3 on July 02, 2010, 05:01:24 AM

with the talk of pure bloodlines, obviously some are getting into semantics. i have no interest in that as it serves no purpose. if one wants to talk of 'pure' the way some of you are (billy and william), taking into account tribes intermingling and such, you would probably be right.
   BUT! spirithawk even said in one of his posts, it is more a frame of mind than anything. if i went to germany, had a baby with a german woman, and that child was raised in germany, spoke german and lived in germany all it's life, i would submit to you that child would be a german, despite dad being an american. the same as we are americans; no matter where our parents came from.
   if there were more people like spirithawk out there, taking pride in their heritage and making the efforts to pass it on to the next generation AND the rest of us, the rez's wouldnt be in as bad as shape as they are.
   who are any of you to dispute or put down spirithawk's pride in his ancestory? not ONCE has he tried to use his statements to elevate himself above any of us. in the short time he has been here i have really enjoyed the flavor he brings to g.b.o.. it is nice to see someone posting positive material for a change of pace. i submit that some of you need to step back and re-access things.

I agree.
I would also encourage some folks to actually READ for content, rather than just spout off their bias, from words or phrases they picked up in others' posts.

WylieKy · « **Reply #71 on:** July 02, 2010, 06:25:28 AM »

Quote from: Spirithawk on July 02, 2010, 04:29:18 AM

For example the German and the Irish are very particular about bloodlines. It's a matter of tradition and quite neccesary to know. Blood lines determine what clan you belong to and who you can marry and who you can't.

I wonder how far THIS quote would make it before being flamed down for racism and idiocy? Double standard?

TheCoachZed · « **Reply #72 on:** July 02, 2010, 06:27:34 AM »

Spirithawk, you were complaining that I was comparing Indians/natives to the "drunken Irish sterotype.

1). I didn't compare them to the Irish, and
2). It's no stereotype. The vast majority of Irish descendants I know are proud of a long history of drinking. And guess what? I'm part Irish too, so it's not racist or discriminatory at all when I say it.

ANYWAY - You say that being an Indian/native is a state of mind. But you know, all of our ancestors started off at the same place. My hairy Celtic and Slavic ancestors running around in kilts and hunting wild roe and catching salmon were just as in tune with nature as any other race, whether it be Bedouin Arabs, the natives of the Congo, or the Cherokee. Otherwise, they wouldn't have survived! The difference between where all these tribes ended up is determined by how they learned to use the nature around them. Some tribes learned to mine iron, then make steel, then make firearms, and sail around the world carving out empires. Other tribes stuck with flint hatchets. None of this makes any race any better than another. I think the local Mic Mac and Maliseet are just as fine as the Irish/Czech/Scot/English/Ukrainian people like me. I can understand why they might not be happy about losing their way of life ... but we can't go back (AND if we had to return them to their pre-Columbian lifestyle of frequent famine and disease and war, I bet most wouldn't want to). Just as I can't go back to the Scottish Highlands and demand my rights as an "aboriginal" person to that area.

As for being shafted by the government ... that's life. We're all in the same boat there, no matter what our skin colour is, or nationality for that matter.

Not trying to pick a fight here or anything. Just thought these were some points to ponder. I certainly don't think that our world is getting any better, and I think we all need to be treated fairly, regardless of skin colour or treaties kept or broken. Personally, I'd love to leave my day job and go back to a more self-sufficient lifestyle like my ancestors lived.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #73 on:** July 02, 2010, 07:12:51 AM »

Quote from: WylieKy on July 02, 2010, 06:25:28 AM

Quote from: Spirithawk on July 02, 2010, 04:29:18 AM
For example the German and the Irish are very particular about bloodlines. It's a matter of tradition and quite neccesary to know. Blood lines determine what clan you belong to and who you can marry and who you can't.

I wonder how far THIS quote would make it before being flamed down for racism and idiocy? Double standard?

There is a big differance in bragging about your bloodline to insinuate you are better than someone else and keeping track of a bloodline due to tradition and ceremonies. Do you presume to insinuate that this tradition was started after European settlemen just to snub you? Let me tell you, it existed longgggg before that. It was due to neccesity to keep interbreeding from occuring. If you'd thought a bit, instead of being so quick to judge, you might have figured that out on your own. Among the Cherokee one's lineage says what clan you belong to and one does not marry into the same clan. Same with the Dine' and most other Nations. In a stretch it might could be called racial but not in any way the derogitory way that you imply. Another example of judging a culture you know nothing about using your standards only and totally disreguarding theirs.

And myronman3, thank you and a few others for understanding and at least making an effort. May the Creator smile down on you and may you always walk in beauty. I wish you enough.....SH ^i^

I'd also like to pose a question. Supose I came into your home, told you it was mine, forced you into a home no one wanted, refused you your langauge, your customs and your religion. I took your children from you and forced them to learn a foreign language, customs and religion so that when they were returned to you they were strangers to you and you to them. I took away your very dignity and fed you alcohol to make it easier to do these things. How long do you think it would take you to get those things taken from you back? Many of us are working hard to do just that but misguided people on both sides make it very hard to do. To you this is just a discusion, something to pass the time. To me this is my life and that of my people. Alcoholism is a disease and not limited to one race, but among my people we had no resistance never having know alcohol before. Like a disease it takes root and spreads and like any disease the cure is often hard to find. Drug addiction and gangs weren't started on reservations. You can't solve the problem in your world but you exspect us to have a magic solution to solve them in ours? Why? Exspecting us to show you how it's done? Yes, you look at those on the reservations as lazy and pathetic. I see a people broken in spirit struggling to survive and not quite knowing how. Just like you yourselves we have dishonest leaders that only work for their own gains not that of those they are supose to serve. On reservations that is often the rule not the exception. As I asked, just how well would you perform under such circumstances? Keep on sitting in your comfy homes judging others. By doing so you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem and what's more you can deny it all you want but you know in your heart that I'm right.

bearmgc · « **Reply #74 on:** July 02, 2010, 07:50:25 AM »

In the end, it comes down to personal responsibility and self discipline. Hopefully the Community supports one on that. Sometimes, it doesn't. Sometimes an individual has to leave the Community they've known, in order to learn what they need to learn, to better themselves. If I had stayed and hung around with the same friends I had in High School, I would have become the nieghborhood drunk, or gone to prison, or end up dead. Loyalty is not a virture, when it applies to people who are not good for you.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #75 on:** July 02, 2010, 07:53:15 AM »

Ok, I know this isn't the place to post stories but these aren't stories and they are pertanent to the discussion. I wrote these sometime back for John Graywolf to read on his Rradio show. They state how the lack of caring, and no ones willingness to step up instead of stading on the sidelines judging, is much the problem. Also, I agree bearmgc but when ones world is so very differant than the world you must decide to become a part of it can be a very hard thing to do. It's hard to leave who you are behind to become someone you really don't wish to be.

MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS

My Brothers and Sisters are hungry
   I do not care.....my belly is full!
My Brothers and Sisters are homeless
   I do not care....for I have a nice home!
My Brothers and Sisters are cold
   I do not care....for I am warm and comfortable!
My Brothers and Sisters are jobless
   I do not care.....I am secure in my career!
My Brothers and Sisters are ill and have no medicine nor doctors
   I do not care.....for I am in good health and have a good medical plan!
My Brothers and Sisters are poor
   I do not care....for I have all of the money that I need!
My Brothers and Sisters clothes are in rags
   I do not care...for I have my tailored suits!
My Brothers and Sisters abuse alcohol and drugs
   I do not care.....for it is not my problem!
My Brothers and Sisters children are lost and troubled
   I do not care....for my children are safe and cared for!
My Brothers and Sisters children are killing themselves out of despair
   I do not care....for my children have a bright future!
My Brothers and Sisters have forgotten their Creator, their customs and their ancestors
   I do not care...I have forgotten them too!
My Brothers and Sisters are dying as a Race
   I do not care....I am living the good life!
My Brothers and Sisters cry out for help
   I turn my back and walk away!
My Brothers and Sisters are no longer here
   I wonder where it is they have gone....AS I STAND HERE ALONE!

OUR PEOPLE'S FUTURE

We are dying,
alcohol is killing us as sure as bullets.
We are dying,
drugs are killing us too.
We are dying,
gangs take their toll on us.
We are dying,
and society cares nothing.
We are dying,
we have no dreams left to us.
We are dying,
your customs they die with us.
We are dying,
and your ceremonies die with us too.
We are dying,
our ancestors bones will mean nothing.
We are dying,
and you die with us.
We are dying,
our People will live on only in books.
We are dying,
do you not hear us crying?
We are dying,
why is it you do not care?
We are dying,
If you don't care then why should we?
We are dying,
we are your children!
We are dying,
we are Tribal Youth
Yes we are dieing,
AND THE FUTURE DIES WITH US!

bearmgc · « **Reply #76 on:** July 02, 2010, 08:04:43 AM »

Sometimes, better to stand alone in the light, than to curse the darkness with your family. If people won't take the opportunities available, and learn what they need to learn, our hands are tied. There is a thing called "survivor guilt", that applies here, as well as to other families and communities. When one person sees that their situation is dire, and they take the steps to improve themselves, sometimes the rest of the family or community derides that person, and accuses him/her of "trying to be/act better than everyone else."
Scorn is heaped upon that person, and accusations are made that he/she is not being "loyal" to the family or community. He/she is accused of "acting like you're white." The person experiencing this sometimes developes "survivor Guilt", sometimes abruptly stopping their own studies and schooling, sometimes quitting a good job they may have off the Rez. Sometimes they just live with a deep hurting guilt. Knowing when to stay, and when to leave, is a tough decision for anyone. Talk talk talk, but do what needs to be done to make it better.

Swampman · « **Reply #77 on:** July 02, 2010, 08:11:15 AM »

I guess my point was lost.

bearmgc · « **Reply #78 on:** July 02, 2010, 08:43:31 AM »

Its HOW you make your point, that is better left unsaid.

williamlayton · « **Reply #79 on:** July 02, 2010, 09:46:15 AM »

Where did the Indian come from? I can trace mine back to 1620-so what. Somewhere in there they married other folks that didn't even know what their bloodline was from their father or mother--now my blood line is mixed.
It dang sure aint a pure bloodline.
Your changing your story Spirit---
OK if you want to talk about pride that is OK. Where is the pride in standing with status quo and getting whipped.
are you crying that the fight was unfair?
I have never been in a fair fight.
What is so pure about the old ways---if they were so good why does everbody want a bathroom?
Come on you guys---you don't even know what you are argueing about, much less what you want---and that dang sure aint a hole dug in the ground for a toilet.
You can still go back to the old ways---double shovel a crop.
I am asking once again what you want--and how are you going to get it.
Sympanthy will get you nothing but further loss of pride.
I still don't know what the indian has ever had too be that proud of.
If it is respect--that is earned, not given.
History---you are forgetting history and doomed to repeat it.
Heritage won't get you anything but a cup of coffee if you have a buck and a half.
Blessings

billy_56081 · « **Reply #80 on:** July 02, 2010, 11:07:35 AM »

The spoils go to the victor! I am glad to be an American and thankful that everything that happened in my past happened exactley as it did. I am thankful for all the wars, murders, rapes and thefts of land that caused each and every ansestor I have to exist.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #81 on:** July 02, 2010, 11:21:58 AM »

Again, you are taking generalizations and aplying it to the whole. Ever hear the word stereotype? And just how am I changing my story? You think all Indians were whipped? Try telling that to men like Russell Means and Moses Brings Plenty. But do it to their face and you'll find out just how whipped they are. Again you speak of traditions as if you know what you're talking about. Care to tell me what they are since you are so educated on the subject? I'm not talking holes to crap in. I'm talking about being conected with the Creater, about being conected with the Earth and all living things, I'm talking about things you don't seem to understand nor care about or you wouldn't be so snyde in your remarks. You judge all other ways by your own without giving thought that other people might live diferantly and be content to do so. Because you don't like something no one else should eighther? Why? Also, I don't recall asking for nor saying I wanted anything other than open minds and respect for that which you don't understand. Because you don't hold some things as valuable by what right do you say no one else should either? I've said it already but I'll say it again, if I want anything it's simply that people quit passing judment on others simply because they think they know better, and with some, because they are on the side of the so called "victor" that that gives them the right to do so. Also I'll clue you in on something to think on. Just what makes you think the Indian Wars are over? They still go on but are being fought in a very differant way. Sometimes what you force on others comes back and bites you in the rear in the long run. If you can't figure out how then you need to seriously rethink the conquered people cliche. Seems you acuse me of sentimetality and do so with as many cliches and stereotypes as you can think of. That dog don't hunt!

billy_56081 -At least you're honest about it! More than I can say for some.

I'm taking a lesson from Lee. Believe what you want but just because you believe it it dosn't change things one bit. I've said all I need to say. Learn from it or turn a deaf ear and keep on with your stereotypes and uninformed views. You hurt no one but yourself in doing so. May the Creater smile down on each of you and may you always walk in beauty. I wish you enough...Adanvdo Towodi

RB1235 · « **Reply #82 on:** July 02, 2010, 12:01:57 PM »

Blaming whitey is feeble minded racism at best. Instead of worrying about what whitey did in generations past. I focus on today. Racism exists in every culture and quite frankly in America today it is quite often a crutch for minorities. With affirmative action a minority has a better chance of getting a job than the majority. This may not have been the case a few decades ago. But today there are no plausible excuses only fervent racism when it comes to anyone whining about the treatment of their ancestors.

This thread is about the white man wanting to be or claiming to be Indian. Racism in America from the whites is today not what it was of days past towards Indians. Today many, many whites want to be Indians. Many will proudly boast of any small shred of lineage to Indians, or blatantly make it up. That is the opposite of hatred.
Now flip the coin and take it from the other prospective. The white wanting to belong is laughed at. He is white and in many cases is hated for the things his ancestors did. The reason for this thread was the pale faced Kimosabe a derogatory term. It is the clearly caucasian person who has to tell everyone within ear shot he is an Indian. Especially around Indians. He has no visible physical characteristics. Yet he must make sure everyone knows what he has in his bloodline, or claims to have. He makes no mention of nor does he care about his European heritage in almost every case.

Most people arguing the Indian's plight have to dredge up what took place in the past when it comes to whites. This just like the black's plight is racism. The whites in America today never ran anyone from their land. It can be doctored up into a sympathetic yearning for times of old and how harshly the Indians were treated, what atrocities whites did,,,,, preaching the gospel and appealing to white guilt. No matter how it's sliced it is pure and simple racism. A disdain for the people of today that were not there, but they are blamed anyhow. As stated earlier history is very important. However it needs to be learned from, not used as an excuse.

bearmgc · « **Reply #83 on:** July 02, 2010, 12:13:45 PM »

OKAY, my last point. We just had Pow Wow here. And among those watching the dancers was a retired Tribal Judge, a woman, proud, respected, truthful in all that she is. At one time in her life, she had to leave the Reservation, to go to school to become a lawyer. That she, during that early time, was thought to have abandoned her family and her Tribal ways, was certain. She practiced Law, and returned to the Rez. She was appointed Judge, and held that position for many years until she retired. Women Judges, while considered rare back then by Caucasians, were actually thought by many, to be more suited for Judgeship than men. It was believed, that women think things out, and are not swayed by emotion or the need to "Save Face", as men are. Today, she is revered and respected for her service to the Tribe. But her road initially, was hard. She is the supremely honored role model for the young of the Tribe. But most importantly, she took that first step, the hardest one. She braved abuse and ostrasization, and her family suffered the community humiliation. But, she did it. And they now love her for it.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #84 on:** July 02, 2010, 12:19:23 PM »

The biggest kick out of these "indians" is they must hate themselves as they are more white than anything else. Like I said before just because you put Ford hubcaps on a Chevy, that don't make it a ford. I'm not sure I would take pride in an ancestry that lost my country. I have to say I am proud America forged this great country and have no qualms what so ever about the means that were necesarry to acomplish it.

williamlayton · « **Reply #85 on:** July 02, 2010, 04:31:11 PM »

If it is respect and recognition you are asking for, well I can have respect for individuals--but--carry that over to all is an impossibility.
It is not race, creed or color that earns respect---it is deed and life.
Ira Hayes earns respect and disrespect---but more respect and feelings of sympathy.
I am still not able to show you that what you ask for cannot be granted--n total, just because you or a part of you is indian.
Blessings

Spirithawk · « **Reply #86 on:** July 02, 2010, 07:18:15 PM »

Quote from: williamlayton on July 02, 2010, 04:31:11 PM

If it is respect and recognition you are asking for, well I can have respect for individuals--but--carry that over to all is an impossibility.
It is not race, creed or color that earns respect---it is deed and life.
Ira Hayes earns respect and disrespect---but more respect and feelings of sympathy.
I am still not able to show you that what you ask for cannot be granted--n total, just because you or a part of you is indian.
Blessings

What I pray you can understand is that this is not just a discussion for me as it is for you. This is about things and people dear to my heart. If I asked respect for the whole it is only as human beings. Did not your own Jesus preach that? I'm of poor health and I just don't think as clearly as I once did. I turn down the morphine they tell me would ease my pain. Then often it is just hard to put into words feelings that are so deep and strong. I'll be the first to admit that. Agents Orange, Brown and Pink have ravaged every organ in my body and when you are very passionet about something it's hard enough to always think clearly when you're healthy. As in all races we have our good and bad. I never meant to insinuate otherwise. We have our heroes and villains the same as you. But please do not judge all by the acts of a few. I've stated that you can't be held responsible for the acts of your ancestors early on. But those acts still have lasting effects that are often hard to overcome. You say a man must earn your respect, I say I respect a man till he shows me a reason I shouldn't. You'll go to bed tonight not giving this discussion another thought. I'll go to bed and lie awake trying to think of ways to make a differance for those less fortunate. Do you know that many such as I volunteered for the military and the whites, not our own people, couldn't understand why we did? When others burned our flag and draft card, others got deferments because of rich mommies and daddies, and still other's ran to Canada, I inlisted and volonteered for Vietnam. Why? Because it was a way to be a warrior and to fight for my Country. Despite ones race , if you were born here or became a citizen legaly it is your Country now as much as the next. It's just that some care for it more than others. I am not saying one never did but I've never heard of an Indian burning his draft card nor running to Canada. Is it that hard to understand, or that costly to do so, that we are passionet about our customs and traditions which to us were our very religion? I'm sorry but it truly hurts when you make fun or light of that passion. Yes Ira Hayes was a heroe that fell from his throne. But have you ever asked yourself why? Did you know he was paraded around like a token Indian and found it hard to be proud while mourning the sacrifices of his fellow brothers in arms. Why weren't they treated as he? He wasn't the only one holding that flag pole but because of his race it made better news to parade him. Any soldier who's seen action can tell you how that would make one feel. They sometimes call it the survivor complex. Why me and not them? It hurt Ira deeply. He didn't recieve the kind of theropy soldiers recieve now. He turned to drink and died of exsposure drunk in a ditch. I won't say pitty him but I don't think you have the right to judge him either. What have you done to earn that right? I don't mean that to sound harsh but it is true. As for myself I ask nothing. I want nothing for myself. I exspect nothing. I just believe that a person who has lived an exsperience, who has seen things first hand, who has been there in bad and good, is better qualified to have an opinion on that exsperience than someone who has only read about it, watched it on tv, or simply heard about it through the grape vine. If you have seen a man die, held his hand and seen the life go out of his eyes then are you not better qualified to speak about death than someone who's at best seen someone die in a movie? I've seen and exsperienced things of which we've been tossing around first hand. The only respect that I ask for myself is that I have been there and I no longer care about the nitpicking of what is right or wrong. I work hard to try and make a differance. I have froze in the cold unloading and handing out clothing and blankets in the dead of a very bitter winter. I have talked to youth to try and understand why they join gangs and what to do about it. I have helped keep the traditional stories alive that have been handed down through the ages. I've taken sick children miles to get medical attention they otherwise would never have gotten. I have fought hard, alongside others for better living conditions. I have worked with others to try and change the hopeless attitudes to positive ones so that the people might better themselves. I have spent hours convincing children to stay in school or to return to school. These are the kinds of things I do freely without pay of any kind. What have you done lately? And yet you judge me. It doesn't matter. I've been shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten, blown clear off the ground and poisened by my own government and I'm still here. I still pay every single day for my service to this Country. I will every day for the rest of my life. What hurts even more is to see the effects of Dioxin now show up in my children. After all I've been through, After all I've done and do, do you really think your words can hurt me personally? If they do so at all it's only that they sadden me that you care so little. Though your people have your alcoholics, though you have your share of lazy people that exist by government handouts yourself, though you have all those sorry traits yourselves that you attribute to my people, can you show me where I once threw it all at you as a blanket statement to describe your race? Even though that is precisly what you have done to me? I must apologise if I ramble.Truly, there is nothing more I can say. You can believe what you wish, live your comfortable life and go to your church each sunday then forget what is preached as soon as you walk out the door. If that is what makes you happy. If that is what makes you feel good about yourself, then far be it from me to try and convince you otherwise. It's obvious my words are like smoke in the wind. I will say no more.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #87 on:** July 03, 2010, 02:40:43 AM »

Quote from: Spirithawk on July 02, 2010, 07:18:15 PM

Quote from: williamlayton on July 02, 2010, 04:31:11 PM
If it is respect and recognition you are asking for, well I can have respect for individuals--but--carry that over to all is an impossibility.
It is not race, creed or color that earns respect---it is deed and life.
Ira Hayes earns respect and disrespect---but more respect and feelings of sympathy.
I am still not able to show you that what you ask for cannot be granted--n total, just because you or a part of you is indian.
Blessings

What I pray you can understand is that this is not just a discussion for me as it is for you. This is about things and people dear to my heart. If I asked respect for the whole it is only as human beings. Did not your own Jesus preach that? I'm of poor health and I just don't think as clearly as I once did. I turn down the morphine they tell me would ease my pain. Then often it is just hard to put into words feelings that are so deep and strong. I'll be the first to admit that. Agents Orange, Brown and Pink have ravaged every organ in my body and when you are very passionet about something it's hard enough to always think clearly when you're healthy. As in all races we have our good and bad. I never meant to insinuate otherwise. We have our heroes and villains the same as you. But please do not judge all by the acts of a few. I've stated that you can't be held responsible for the acts of your ancestors early on. But those acts still have lasting effects that are often hard to overcome. You say a man must earn your respect, I say I respect a man till he shows me a reason I shouldn't. You'll go to bed tonight not giving this discussion another thought. I'll go to bed and lie awake trying to think of ways to make a differance for those less fortunate. Do you know that many such as I volunteered for the military and the whites, not our own people, couldn't understand why we did? When others burned our flag and draft card, others got deferments because of rich mommies and daddies, and still other's ran to Canada, I inlisted and volonteered for Vietnam. Why? Because it was a way to be a warrior and to fight for my Country. Despite ones race , if you were born here or became a citizen legaly it is your Country now as much as the next. It's just that some care for it more than others. I am not saying one never did but I've never heard of an Indian burning his draft card nor running to Canada. Is it that hard to understand, or that costly to do so, that we are passionet about our customs and traditions which to us were our very religion? I'm sorry but it truly hurts when you make fun or light of that passion. Yes Ira Hayes was a heroe that fell from his throne. But have you ever asked yourself why? Did you know he was paraded around like a token Indian and found it hard to be proud while mourning the sacrifices of his fellow brothers in arms. Why weren't they treated as he? He wasn't the only one holding that flag pole but because of his race it made better news to parade him. Any soldier who's seen action can tell you how that would make one feel. They sometimes call it the survivor complex. Why me and not them? It hurt Ira deeply. He didn't recieve the kind of theropy soldiers recieve now. He turned to drink and died of exsposure drunk in a ditch. I won't say pitty him but I don't think you have the right to judge him either. What have you done to earn that right? I don't mean that to sound harsh but it is true. As for myself I ask nothing. I want nothing for myself. I exspect nothing. I just believe that a person who has lived an exsperience, who has seen things first hand, who has been there in bad and good, is better qualified to have an opinion on that exsperience than someone who has only read about it, watched it on tv, or simply heard about it through the grape vine. If you have seen a man die, held his hand and seen the life go out of his eyes then are you not better qualified to speak about death than someone who's at best seen someone die in a movie? I've seen and exsperienced things of which we've been tossing around first hand. The only respect that I ask for myself is that I have been there and I no longer care about the nitpicking of what is right or wrong. I work hard to try and make a differance. I have froze in the cold unloading and handing out clothing and blankets in the dead of a very bitter winter. I have talked to youth to try and understand why they join gangs and what to do about it. I have helped keep the traditional stories alive that have been handed down through the ages. I've taken sick children miles to get medical attention they otherwise would never have gotten. I have fought hard, alongside others for better living conditions. I have worked with others to try and change the hopeless attitudes to positive ones so that the people might better themselves. I have spent hours convincing children to stay in school or to return to school. These are the kinds of things I do freely without pay of any kind. What have you done lately? And yet you judge me. It doesn't matter. I've been shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten, blown clear off the ground and poisened by my own government and I'm still here. I still pay every single day for my service to this Country. I will every day for the rest of my life. What hurts even more is to see the effects of Dioxin now show up in my children. After all I've been through, After all I've done and do, do you really think your words can hurt me personally? If they do so at all it's only that they sadden me that you care so little. Though your people have your alcoholics, though you have your share of lazy people that exist by government handouts yourself, though you have all those sorry traits yourselves that you attribute to my people, can you show me where I once threw it all at you as a blanket statement to describe your race? Even though that is precisly what you have done to me? I must apologise if I ramble.Truly, there is nothing more I can say. You can believe what you wish, live your comfortable life and go to your church each sunday then forget what is preached as soon as you walk out the door. If that is what makes you happy. If that is what makes you feel good about yourself, then far be it from me to try and convince you otherwise. It's obvious my words are like smoke in the wind. I will say no more.

Spirithawk,
Well said. I refused to get into this discussion. After reading every post, I realized there is a lot of people on this site that need to look in the mirror, and ask themselves some serious questions.

I will say this, we are all born in the skin we have, we never had a choice. My father is an American Indian, I cannot change that nor would I want to. When people ask me what I am I tell them American, but when the people persist about my blood line I am an American Indian. But still just American.

I never live in the past, or look down on anyone for what happened in the past. But I have learned from the past, and know what mistakes need not be repeated.

As Spirithawk, I will not say anymore on this topic.

Dee · « **Reply #88 on:** July 03, 2010, 03:39:48 AM »

When I first read the title of this thread, and then the comments I realized that this wasn't as much a question, but more of a statement of opinion of the American Indian, and his place in this culture. More of an opportunity to denigrate the American Indian and make it clear that in the authors' mind, he doesn't deserve the recognition that he (the American Indian) may or may not be getting.
When SpiritHawk first came onto the site, and began using the term "First Nation" he was immediately "challenged", and good ole American Resentment began to come forth with insults born out of ignorance of it's meaning. I must admit after being on this earth 60 years, and living with a half of my family that are indeed full blood Cherokee, I too had never heard the term.
I have watched on this thread 3 or 4 individuals that are "determined" to bring ALL AMERICAN INDIANS down to the level of "mutt status" for various reasons, or just plain prejudice. One perceives himself as a "philosopher" and imparts similar wisdom on all subjects, while two shoot over their shoulders constantly missing the mark, and in this instance all three, and most likely all four have NEVER made ANY effort in studying the American Indian, let alone the Cherokee.
Although I don't blame SpiritHawk in his view of the "Indian Role", I "AM" on the Role, as were all my ancestors that survived the "Trail of Tears" march. My great grandmother was a little girl on the march, and my father as a small boy, would sit at her feet and listen to the stories of the march, as viewed from the eyes of a small girl. In this age of computers, if you type may last name into ANY search engine, my great grandfather, great grandmother, and great uncles, and my grandfather and grand mother will quickly pop onto your screen, along with all MY BLOODLINES.
My point here is, just because you "think it" doesn't make it fact. It would be quite entertaining for me to watch a couple here walk into certain neighborhoods of Tahlequah, or another tribal headquarters of another nation and make the remarks you have made here. You would be lucky to leave in one piece, as they have just as little respect for you, as you do for them. They are tired of your foolish remarks of something you know nothing about.
As I have said before. I am an American who happens to be half Cherokee, but just as some of you like beer, BBQ, nascar

, and the NFL. We like being Cherokee.
Hollywood has blown the American Cowboy into a folk hero, when the era lasted less than 40 years. Hollywood has portrayed the American Indian from everything from a blood thirsty heathen, to a wise caretaker of the land. And that is about all most of you here know, about either the Cowboy, OR the American Indian. The rest is spoken out of total ignorance of something you have never been a part of, or will ever be a part of. You don't understand it, therefore you don't like it, and it must be foolishness. One has even expressed his distaste of the American Indian "handing out casino checks". It isn't your money, or tax dollar, so why does that concern you?
Therefore it IS foolishness to debate at least three of you, as I have never witnessed either of the three admit, or concede to the possibility of you being wrong about anything.
I will say this though. Keep coming to those casinos and losin your money. We're building hospitals, clinics, and more casinos with the money, and life is gettin better all the time, while your lessor of two evils keep sellin you and your wisdom down the river. It's good to be Cherokee.

TheCoachZed · « **Reply #89 on:** July 03, 2010, 04:00:08 AM »

Dee, I think it's good to keep a sense of identity. Everyone should know where their family came from and either be proud of their heritage, or if their ancestors were scoundrels, try to establish a change in direction for the family. I don't think it's wrong to be proud of being an Indian anymore than I'm proud of being a Court from Rustico, PEI.