Author Topic: Indian Idolization?  (Read 4089 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2010, 04:15:49 AM »
Well, Dee, I do take on the responsibility when I am wrong.
I don't think I am a philosopher as much as you do.
I have studied opinions--and they are opinions.
They are not--eyes rolling to the back of my head and me being thesecond one to know what I said.
I will stand by my statements.
Race plays no part in achievement or ability.
There is only pride in pride of race and as the Roman's servant would constantly remind his master "pride is fleeting."
Only individuals gain respect. Regardless of race--respect is earned not granted by birth or race---can't be inherited.
Color is the least important of any of the traits of man--race follows only very closely behind.
Pride is the original sin.
Blessings   
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline RB1235

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2010, 04:40:00 AM »
When I first read the title of this thread, and then the comments I realized that this wasn't as much a question, but more of a statement of opinion of the American Indian, and his place in this culture. More of an opportunity to denigrate the American Indian and make it clear that in the authors' mind, he doesn't deserve the recognition that he (the American Indian) may or may not be getting.
When SpiritHawk first came onto the site, and began using the term "First Nation" he was immediately "challenged", and good ole American Resentment began to come forth with insults born out of ignorance of it's meaning. I must admit after being on this earth 60 years, and living with a half of my family that are indeed full blood Cherokee, I too had never heard the term.
I have watched on this thread 3 or 4 individuals that are "determined" to bring ALL AMERICAN INDIANS down to the level of "mutt status" for various reasons, or just plain prejudice. One perceives himself as a "philosopher" and imparts similar wisdom on all subjects, while two shoot over their shoulders constantly missing the mark, and in this instance all three, and most likely all four have NEVER made ANY effort in studying the American Indian, let alone the Cherokee.
Although I don't blame SpiritHawk in his view of the "Indian Role", I "AM" on the Role, as were all my ancestors that survived the "Trail of Tears" march. My great grandmother was a little girl on the march, and my father as a small boy, would sit at her feet and listen to the stories of the march, as viewed from the eyes of a small girl. In this age of computers, if you type may last name into ANY search engine, my great grandfather, great grandmother, and great uncles, and my grandfather and grand mother will quickly pop onto your screen, along with all MY BLOODLINES.
My point here is, just because you "think it" doesn't make it fact. It would be quite entertaining for me to watch a couple here walk into certain neighborhoods of Tahlequah, or another tribal headquarters of another nation and make the remarks you have made here. You would be lucky to leave in one piece, as they have just as little respect for you, as you do for them. They are tired of your foolish remarks of something you know nothing about.
As I have said before. I am an American who happens to be half Cherokee, but just as some of you like beer, BBQ, nascar  ::), and the NFL. We like being Cherokee.
Hollywood has blown the American Cowboy into a folk hero, when the era lasted less than 40 years. Hollywood has portrayed the American Indian from everything from a blood thirsty heathen, to a wise caretaker of the land. And that is about all most of you here know, about either the Cowboy, OR the American Indian. The rest is spoken out of total ignorance of something you have never been a part of, or will ever be a part of. You don't understand it, therefore you don't like it, and it must be foolishness. One has even expressed his distaste of the American Indian "handing out casino checks". It isn't your money, or tax dollar, so why does that concern you?
Therefore it IS foolishness to debate at least three of you, as I have never witnessed either of the three admit, or concede to the possibility of you being wrong about anything.
I will say this though. Keep coming to those casinos and losin your money. We're building hospitals, clinics, and more casinos with the money, and life is gettin better all the time, while your lessor of two evils keep sellin you and your wisdom down the river. It's good to be Cherokee. ;)

 So you think I am a white man racist towards Indians? Also please explain how I implied Indians do not deserve the recognition they may or may not be getting? And also how you assessed the post was a statement of opinion of the Indian and his place in culture? Please feel free to quote my posts and explain how you came to these conclusions.

Offline Casull

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2010, 06:00:19 AM »
Spirithawk has many wise things to say.  However, like any human, he also lets his biases show (that's not a slam, since we all do it).  I agree with much of what he has to say, but also felt the need to point out some "errors".

Quote
For example the Dine and the Cherokee are very particular about bloodlines. It's a matter of tradition and quite neccesary to know. Blood lines determine what clan you belong to and who you can marry and who you can't.


Doesn't this conflict with the fact that you are half Cherokee?

Quote
Though your people have your alcoholics, though you have your share of  lazy people that exist by government handouts yourself, though you have all those sorry traits yourselves that you attribute to my people, can you show me where I once threw it all at you as a blanket statement to describe your race?

Might this also not be "your people" and "your race"?  Or do you only acknowledge your Cherokee roots?
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Dee

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2010, 06:37:38 AM »
Just like you and several others, I have given MY synopsis of what has  been said here, and my opinions of their opinions. William has demonstrated my point by picking ONE SENTENCE from an entire statement and decided I was talking about him, although I did not mention ANYONE by name, and he, AND YOU, have tried to call me out. Willi is even being You, and William are now in "defensive mode" because you THINK, you have been insulted while you have been making disparaging remarks about a ethnic group of people. Now your indignant, but did not understand SpiritHawks indignation over YOUR remarks.
You like Willi have read things into my post that I did not say, but rest assured, I am under no obligation to do ANYTHING other than post my opinion, just as you and the others are not. I have not mentioned until this post one single individual by name, but you and Willi assume I was talking directly to you, and have no problem calling me by name. You didn't like my post, but I'm supposed to APPRECIATE YOURS. Now hardly.
This thread would have never come into existence had you not taken exception to SpiritHawks threads and stories. The very title of your thread reeks with negative connotations as was intended. There were dozens of other ways to post the thread in a more positive manner. American Indians were seldom mentioned on this forum before he came and started posting. Admit it or not, makes me no difference, but what I said just now, is the truth and you know it.
You won't get a debate from me cause I already know what you think, and don't care. I've read it. Now you know what I think, and I still don't care. Your crowd has been jabbin SpiritHawk, and now you've been jabbed back and don't like it. Your on a defamation mission, and I must say, your in good company, their love that kind of thing.
SpiritHawk is proud of his ancestry, and has studied it, and thought someone might be interested in what he has learned. You have assisted in turning into something else, for no other reason than mean spiritedness. This thread has accomplished NOTHING but, negativity. Congratulations. Mission accomplished.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2010, 06:40:38 AM »
Spirithawk has many wise things to say.  However, like any human, he also lets his biases show (that's not a slam, since we all do it).  I agree with much of what he has to say, but also felt the need to point out some "errors".

Quote
For example the Dine and the Cherokee are very particular about bloodlines. It's a matter of tradition and quite neccesary to know. Blood lines determine what clan you belong to and who you can marry and who you can't.


Doesn't this conflict with the fact that you are half Cherokee?

Quote
Though your people have your alcoholics, though you have your share of  lazy people that exist by government handouts yourself, though you have all those sorry traits yourselves that you attribute to my people, can you show me where I once threw it all at you as a blanket statement to describe your race?

Might this also not be "your people" and "your race"?  Or do you only acknowledge your Cherokee roots?


I said I was finished but since the questions were politely asked I'll answer them.
The first one; No it doesn't conflict with me being half Scotch/Irish. As I tried to exspain it was meant to keep interbreeding among tribes this by necesaty it meant knowing who married who.

Second question; Your people was directed at those so quick to make blanket stereotype comments. As I was talking to, and directing the statement to them, I used the term your.

Dee, my brother, it seems the " No Indians Allowed " mentality still exists and some wonder at my statement that the Indian Wars are far from over. I think you and Redhawk know well what I mean. I wish you enough....SH^i^

As far as the continued argument, " Each individual must earn respect" it is not so much the words but how they were presented that I take issue with. Suppose from the start I told you, " I do not respect you in any way. You've done nothing to earn my respect so I think very little of you." Just how well do you think that statement would have went over and how many seconds before I was labled a racsist troublemaker? Yet, it continues to be said without thought of any such thing simply because of who is saying it. Yes, some kinds of respect should be earned but to use it in the manner it's been used, to mean no respect given at all, is just plain wrong and protest as you might you dang well know it. I made it very clear, more than once, that I respect a man untill he gives me reason not to. Many profess to be Christians but seem to convieniently forget the lessons taught them in the Bible as it suits their needs. Why is that? I've asked before but it seems that some are so busy picking at my words to find things to argue about that they have failed to give me an answer to many of my questions such as this. Could it be because, as much as you profess to know and as self rightious as your appear, you don't have answers your not ashamed to speak?

Offline RB1235

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2010, 07:07:00 AM »
 Dee, I think you may be a bit mixed up. I have not argued with Spirithawk and he has not argued with me. I don't see how I called you out by asking to clarify what you meant. I still am puzzled to say the least.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2010, 07:22:52 AM »
 :-\

Like RedHawk1 I wasn't going to get into this discussion.  I'm following it with great interest, but it is the type of discourse that could get real nasty, real quick!   :(  And you know me, avoid confrontation whenever possible... unless I'm getting paid for it that is!   ;D

'sides, my Daddy always taught me to judge a man as an individual, a philosophy that is kind of "at odds" with the whole racial/national/ethnic tone of this thread...  :-\

OH!   :o  Guys!  I do have something!   :o  Did I ever tell y'all my kids are part Cherokee!?   ???  Yup,   8)  according to my ex-wife's family lore, her mother's grandmother was of the full blood.  How cool is that!?  Doesn't seem to interest the kids - "kids," the youngest is 35...  ::) - anyway, the fact doesn't seem to interest them much...

Me, I'm half Irish and half English.  That's a good mix.  I can just fight with myself when I feel combative...

And Spirithawk, from one VN vet to another, Welcome home Brother!

Richard
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Offline TheCoachZed

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2010, 07:29:56 AM »


Me, I'm half Irish and half English.  That's a good mix.  I can just fight with myself when I feel combative...




 ;D
My avatar is pretty much what I look like out in the woods - except I am not a "chick" in any sense of the word.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2010, 07:30:09 AM »
:-\

Like RedHawk1 I wasn't going to get into this discussion.  I'm following it with great interest, but it is the type of discourse that could get real nasty, real quick!   :(  And you know me, avoid confrontation whenever possible... unless I'm getting paid for it that is!   ;D

'sides, my Daddy always taught me to judge a man as an individual, a philosophy that is kind of "at odds" with the whole racial/national/ethnic tone of this thread...  :-\

OH!   :o  Guys!  I do have something!   :o  Did I ever tell y'all my kids are part Cherokee!?   ???  Yup,   8)  according to my ex-wife's family lore, her mother's grandmother was of the full blood.  How cool is that!?  Doesn't seem to interest the kids - "kids," the youngest is 35...  ::) - anyway, the fact doesn't seem to interest them much...

Me, I'm half Irish and half English.  That's a good mix.  I can just fight with myself when I feel combative...

And Spirithawk, from one VN vet to another, Welcome home Brother!



Thank you Bro and welcome home to you as well. I think you know well what I mean when I say this whole mess is FUBAR  ;)

Offline myronman3

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2010, 07:35:51 AM »
Quote
This thread would have never come into existence had you not taken exception to SpiritHawks threads and stories. The very title of your thread reeks with negative connotations as was intended. There were dozens of other ways to post the thread in a more positive manner. American Indians were seldom mentioned on this forum before he came and started posting. Admit it or not, makes me no difference, but what I said just now, is the truth and you know it.
  yup! my thoughts EXACTLY.   
 
I'm not sure I would take pride in an ancestry that lost my country. I have to say I am proud America forged this great country and have no qualms what so ever about the means that were necesarry to acomplish it.
   well get ready billy, because you are soon to know how it feels.  and i dont NOT ever want to hear you b**** about how it is being accomplished.   

Offline Dee

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2010, 07:43:12 AM »
Dee, I think you may be a bit mixed up. I have not argued with Spirithawk and he has not argued with me. I don't see how I called you out by asking to clarify what you meant. I still am puzzled to say the least.

I don't see how you could be "puzzled". I'm about as blunt as they come. You did what you did, and you got what you wanted to get. We could run around this pasture till our horses were lathered, and you'd still not gonna admit your obvious motives, but I don't think it matters. Anyone with half a brain can see it.
Now I'm done with it, I have spoke my piece, and any confusion of what I meant on anyone's part, means they were already confused before I posted it.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline powderman

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2010, 08:11:08 AM »
I've stayed out of this because I felt that the title of this thread was intended to be a slam of all American Indians. I'm part Cherokee on my Dads side of the family, other blood is English and Irish, I'm proud of my heritage, all of it.  I never could sleep at night if there was a full moon, could not understand it. My Dad would smile and say, thats the Indian in you son.  ???
I read a book several years ago titled, MAGNIFICENT WARRIORS OF THE PLAINS. A great read, about 800 pages, read it, get it from the library.
Spirithawk has been a breath of fresh air, I love the stories he shares with us, I'm glad he's here. Those stories have been passed down for many generations and are a big part of history and need to be preserved for all generations to come.
My wife and  I went to a powow a couple of months ago. We enjoyed the costumes and dancing. The purifying of the spirit was done slowly and very deliberately with smoke, or incense. Boy, it really stank, not sure what it was ???? Anyway, theres a lot to be learned and we enjoyed being able to share a good time with them. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2010, 09:13:12 AM »
Come on Dee--man up.
I know and others know who you were addressing.
Doesn't bother me--I aaddressed you and you deny, deny, deny--and you say i don't accept resposibility.
That's OK, cause I am not mad or hurt--we are just talking here and all feelings SHOULD be in hip pockets.
It is good too argue, IMO. I certainly don't shy away from a good one.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Dee

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2010, 10:17:17 AM »
William your so damn corny, you wouldn't know "man up" if it bit you in the butt. I didn't deny anything. Why don't quit actin like an Old Maid that doesn't like the new neighbor, and quit trying to kill other folks passion, and joy. SpiritHawk is tryin to share what he has learned, and enjoys with others, and all you actin like is the warnin label on a box of Ex-Lax. Your a killjoy.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2010, 11:52:16 PM »
Well what I said to Spirithawk was one thing--our conversation is another.
Now it stil stands that the whole of the conversation has to do with Spirithawk discussing the need for Indians, as a whole, deserving respect as a special race of people.
My contention is that it matters not if a person is anything and has earned my respect he will get it. It has nothing to do with color, race, place of birth, what his/her father/mother did, what family they come from, how much money they have, what their religon is.
I don't bow at the knee except to one bloodline,
It is admireable that Spirithawk is proud to be part Indian--and I really mean that. What has that to do with respect?
You are just argueing--he is trying to make a point. It is a point that cannot be taken with any seriousness because it, in effect, proclaims that it must be done.
We can have a discussion about me being able to man up-or you having no conception of what manning up really is--off line--if you dare.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Dee

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2010, 04:34:26 AM »
The failing of the defense is that it is wrapped in sentimentality--and--sentimentality is really no defense at all, just a pleading for mercy that is too late in coming.
I defy any---any in any part of the world--any individual in the world, to claim an honest clean, heritage, BLOODLINE.
Can't be done---impossible--implausable--screwy thought.

People who have not advanced because they were satisfied with the staus quo are no longer. They were eaten up by those who were more advanced.
The bloodline degraded.

Why is it I see a cry for sympathy--and really--who are you asking for sympathy from/for???
It is the same for the blacks who seek compensation for thier forefathers to be given too them.
HUMMMMM---th agrguements fall on my deaf ears. I have no sympathy for any today for what happened to their fore fathers
. they are responsible and they are dead.
Folks---move on and learn from history.
Get a life.????
Blessings ??????


I look at what SpiritHawk has ACTUALLY SAID, and what you are INFERING HE SAID, BUT DID NOT, and once again realize that you are so far off the mark of what the man is saying that it is as always an exercise in futility to discuss with. If "OFF LINE" means what I think it does, it would indeed be a pleasure, but I consider it a fantasy, and equally as corny as the last testosterone rush you had.
Back to topic, in looking at your remarks above I see no respect or understanding in you concerning SpiritHawks "actual dialogue", but I do see a LITERAL contradiction in YOUR WORDS. You criticize his race, and compare him and his race to blacks, and then tell him to "get a life" yet "learn from history" which is precisely what he is doing. Then you end the post with Blessings?? Now I'll end this "dialogue" (term loosely used) with you as it has, as usual become much like a NASCAR race, with nothing but, left turns. My ONLY REASON for gettin in here anyway, is several of you guys are pickin at, and trying to defame a guy, (SpiritHawk) whom has no ulterior motive other than sharing what he loves and has learned about the Cherokee, and other American Indian tribes. Shame on ya.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2010, 06:12:11 AM »
Whoaaaaa now! Again it seems you pick and choose what words of mine to reply to and which to convieniently ignore and even then you add your own meaning to what I said rather than what was truly said. Repeatedly I did say we deserved respect as A people, as in A human being! Period! Just the same as I feel ANY OTHER race of human beings deserve respect as human beings that do no harm to others. I also said that just because you personaly don't agree with our customs, nor understand them, that doesn't give you the right to mock them! I've often asked why you don't practice what you preach in your own churches about judging others but you seem not to be able to respond to that.
 Respect can be as little as simply accepting someones ways are differant than your's and acknowleging their right to live as they do without predjudice nor mockery. And yes, I feel that MUST ( as you say) be done if we are going to share this Country, just as I feel we must respect other races that dwell here legaly as well. That is the kind of respect I'm talking about. Don't try and twist it into your own meaning to support your own argument. I don't recall even once asking you to bow down to anyone but since you infer that I did then please, by all means, show me and everyone else just where and I'll not hesitate to give you a sincere and honest apology for all to read! That is simply what YOU WISH to read into my words and what YOU WISH other's to believe as well. I've often said that what is truly causing this Country to fall apart is that we tout such statements as, " United we stand, devided we fall!" but pay not one bit of heed to their meaning and it's exactly attitudes as shown here that keep us devided! To be fair, not that I believe anyone will look at it that way as no one has yet, it seems William and my disagreement, in his own words, is about respect. I say, while that has some basis in truth that is a mighty broad statement, it is really about the degree of respect. William, you seem to confuse respect with worship or admiration. Wonder why that is? Your own dictionaries define respect in as;
1 to feel or show diferential regard for & esteem
2 to avoid violation of or interference with
3 willingness to show consideration


 
You pick just one of the meanings to suit your argument and you disregard the others.  Out of all those words esteem is only one. So why do you ignore the rest of it's true meaning if not to twist my words and support your own bias?

Yes, I'll state it quite clearly with no hidden meaning to be pondered. I believe our old ways of life, in the sense of spirituality and being in touch with the Creater, which played a big part in anything we did, was a better way of life. Just as many now alive that remember days before terrorists threats, widespread crooked polititions and a simpler way of life say it was better then than now. Why is it you take no issue with those that say that but quickly refered to our old ways as simply crapping in holes? Predjudice can rear it's ugly head in many ways and hiding it behind twisted words does not change it's loathsomeness.

 I'll tell you all what. Just so you can untwist your panties out of the knots they're in, before your family jewels dry up and fall off, I'll drop the term First Nation, though your own Government gave us that title in the first place trying to be politicaly correct, and on the many other sites I belong to no one has the slightest problem with the term and are open minded enough to not feel it's a personal threat. I will not quit telling the stories however as there are  plenty who enjoy them including Mrs. Graywolf who asked me to tell them in the first place and you are simply guests here same as I. I'll let anyone who reads them do as I always have. Enjoy them and find your own personal lessons in each as it was meant to be from the begining of first man. Oops, I hope no one takes offense at the term First Man.  ::) There had to be one you know! I'll simply just use the true name of each Nation though then I'll have to exsplain who's who and how each one is even pronounced.  ::) If you don't like the stories, feel threatoned by them  ::) then here's a novel idea....don't read them! I'll compromise but in case you haven't figured it out yet, I don't get intimidated worth a dang! Charlie didn't intimidate me, what in the H*** makes you think you can?

And for those of you who seem to think Indians never did anything worth admiring these days then let me ask you this. Ever hear of the Dine', oh excuse me, Navaho Code Talkers? Without them and other tribes lesser known involvement, many many more lives would have been lost and the war may have went another direction where you might be saying Hile Hitler every morning you wake up. 30,000 served in the Civil War alone! Try looking up the number of Indians, yes to please you and to save your family jewels I'll use that term if you insist on feeding your egos, that serve in the military and take a peek at their records of valor. If too lazy I can give you the stats which just might shock you into a bad case of reality!

Offline Casull

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2010, 08:21:00 AM »
This has been quite an interesting read.  I truly don't want to offend anyone, but there seems to be little in the way of middle ground here.  I thought the original post contained a valid question, of why the seeming adulation of the spiritulism of the American Indian, Native American or First Nation (however you want to title it) over other peoples.  Now, you have some on here that want to proclaim the American Indian culture, people, etc. have or had nothing to offer, and on the other side, you have those that think those same people and/or their culture had all the answers and the others (whites?) offered nothing but pollution, corruption, etc.  I am mainly English and Scotch-Irish, but my great, great grandmother on my mother's side was purportedly of full blood American Indian and my great grandmother on my father's side was of the half blood.  Now as I see it, the American Indian was able to live in harmony with the land, but at the expense of basically living in the stone age, while the white settlers (leading into current times) brought progress, but at the expense of being harder on the environment.  Progress brings good and bad (longer life spans, but also greater impact on the land).  Obviously, the nearest that we, as humans, can get to Utopia probably lies somewhere in the middle.  However, I still am interested in the original question.  The fact that Spirithawk seems to only see himself as a First Nation person adds, I think, weight to that question (again no offense intended, just my observation).  Any honest opinions that don't romaticize or villianize either side?
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2010, 08:44:17 AM »
See what I mean? I just get done exsplaining the term First Nation but it aparently falls on deaf ears. Why does everyone feel so threatoned by that term? Particularly when it was basicly you, as it was your Govenment officials, that gave it to us? I've done said I would drop it just to please your egos. And just how is it that, when I am continualy speaking of a whole race, I  am suddenly only seeing myself as Indian? If it seems that way to you might not it be that in this discussion I'm vastly out numbered? Could it be because I'm not afraid to speak up when a whole race is slandered? Did I ever once say the things about the European races that have been said repeatedly about Indians? You people are so busy twisting my words that you simply can't accept that someone might actually mean what they say and say what they mean no hidden meanings.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #109 on: July 04, 2010, 08:45:58 AM »
Spirithawk what you and others here fail to understand is there is only one race, the human race. If we were not of the same race we could not interbreed viable offspring. Are you a mule? I think not. Be glad you live in America and be glad the white man came and made this land the greatest country in the history of the world. Without history being exactley what it was none of us would exist.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2010, 08:55:59 AM »
Of course, and the " White man " had no help. He alone made this a great Country. Not just that but all he stepped on in his march for his version of progress should be happy and thankfull.  THAT, is exactly the attitude that got this off topic, with Swamp quoting history as HE sees it, totally disregarding facts and quite bluntly the kind of statement that p***es me off! A statement founded in predjudice and ignorance, particularly when included in the statement we are all of the human race. Which is the only true statement in the entire post other than this is a great Country. And a few of you not only actually condone this crap, but participate in it yourselves,  while professing to be Christians? Could you be any more hypocritical? From here on I'll only discuss this with those who show racism isn't their only agenda and who take my words for what they say, not what they want to make them appear to say, for the sake of feeling better about themselves.

Since everone is so dead set on facts here's a few for you;
There are 36344 members of this site and exactly 3 giving me crap continually. I won't be shy about naming them. Swamp, who at least has brains enough to step out of it when he sees he's in over his head, William... who continualy twists my words and ignores my questions and occasionaly Billy who makes an ignorant remark.  There are 8 discusing things politely and with moderate degree of respect and three that actually see where I'm coming from. I might not totally agree with all of them but at least they speak as if they have brains and their words not founded in ignorance and predjudice. Now that leaves 36330 who have no real problem with anything I've said at all. Anyone with a brain can see just what those numbers imply. And that folks, is the rest of the story!

Nowww, if those numbers don't speak to you maybe these will. There are only two who really matter and that is Mr. and Mrs. Graybeard both of whom I've shown nothing but respect.. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

 I think, MAYBE, this discussion was started inocently enough but tell me, if I had started a topic titled "White Idolization", for any reason at all, No matter how inocent my intent,  just how well do you think that would have flown? Double stardards are real convienient aren't they?

Offline Casull

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2010, 09:48:04 AM »
Quote
See what I mean? I just get done exsplaining the term First Nation but it aparently falls on deaf ears. Why does everyone feel so threatoned by that term? Particularly when it was basicly you, as it was your Govenment officials, that gave it to us? I've done said I would drop it just to please your egos. And just how is it that, when I am continualy speaking of a whole race, I  am suddenly only seeing myself as Indian? If it seems that way to you might not it be that in this discussion I'm vastly out numbered? Could it be because I'm not afraid to speak up when a whole race is slandered? Did I ever once say the things about the European races that have been said repeatedly about Indians? You people are so busy twisting my words that you simply can't accept that someone might actually mean what they say and say what they mean no hidden meanings.

Spirithawk, if that was directed at me, I must not have written what was intended.  I sincerely meant no offense to your First Nation people or your Scotch-Irish people (especially since I share a similar heritage).  However, your reference to "your Government officials" makes me ask, "are they not also Your government officials"?  But, in any event, I still am interested in the original question and any answers to it.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2010, 10:01:53 AM »
Quote
See what I mean? I just get done exsplaining the term First Nation but it aparently falls on deaf ears. Why does everyone feel so threatoned by that term? Particularly when it was basicly you, as it was your Govenment officials, that gave it to us? I've done said I would drop it just to please your egos. And just how is it that, when I am continualy speaking of a whole race, I  am suddenly only seeing myself as Indian? If it seems that way to you might not it be that in this discussion I'm vastly out numbered? Could it be because I'm not afraid to speak up when a whole race is slandered? Did I ever once say the things about the European races that have been said repeatedly about Indians? You people are so busy twisting my words that you simply can't accept that someone might actually mean what they say and say what they mean no hidden meanings.

Spirithawk, if that was directed at me, I must not have written what was intended.  I sincerely meant no offense to your First Nation people or your Scotch-Irish people (especially since I share a similar heritage).  However, your reference to "your Government officials" makes me ask, "are they not also Your government officials"?  But, in any event, I still am interested in the original question and any answers to it.

Casull, you ask politely and with respect. That's all I ever asked of anyone bud. I've no beef at all with you I just get frustrated having to repeat myself. I''m not sure just which question you mean just now but I'll try to give you as honest an answer as I know how. As far myself I consider myself part of the Cherokee Nation as that was how I was raised and my belief systom is Cherokee. The Cherokee Nation is an independent Nation living within the borders of the United States thus I said your Government. If you lived among the Irish from birth and you had Irish blood though with an equal part of something else, would you not consider yourself Irish? If so then why so hard to understand that I live and think Cherokee? As to the reasons for knowing bloodlines and developing a systom to keep track of them, I've already exsplained that as best I could. If you are interested in such things I encourage you to seek out and read books written by Cherokee on the subect. That is my Tsalagi ( jah-lah-gee) Cherokee speaking, if you want to know about my Scotch /Irish well that part refuses to acknowledge the US even has a valid Government with Obama in office!
I wish you enough.....Adanvdo Towodi Spirit Hawk ^i^

Offline Casull

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2010, 10:21:18 AM »
Spirithawk, you pose an interesting question with the Irish example.  To be honest, I don't know how I would react to an attack on the other half of my heritage, but I think I would be hesitant to wage such an attack myself.  Given your military background, I would think you would also consider yourself an American, and thus my question about "your Government officials".  Although the Cherokee are a Nation, are they also not subject to US laws and governance?  I guess I see a similar (though disperfect) situation between the citizens of the various states.  In any event, the original question that I was referring to was why the romanticizing or idealizing of the First Nation peoples as opposed to any other group of people who at one time or another had their "natural" period (living in tune with the land).  After all, every people on this earth went through that phase, some just earlier than others.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2010, 10:51:18 AM »
Spirithawk, you pose an interesting question with the Irish example.  To be honest, I don't know how I would react to an attack on the other half of my heritage, but I think I would be hesitant to wage such an attack myself.  Given your military background, I would think you would also consider yourself an American, and thus my question about "your Government officials".  Although the Cherokee are a Nation, are they also not subject to US laws and governance?  I guess I see a similar (though disperfect) situation between the citizens of the various states.  In any event, the original question that I was referring to was why the romanticizing or idealizing of the First Nation peoples as opposed to any other group of people who at one time or another had their "natural" period (living in tune with the land).  After all, every people on this earth went through that phase, some just earlier than others.

I'm probably going to get blasted for this but oh well. Now I'm plainly stating here this is just MY opinion and I've earned a right to it. I think it's many reasons. First because people in this Country look around and don't much like what they see. They see more and more concrete, fewer wildlife, poluted streams, filthy air,  a Government few trust, lives full of turmoil and getting worse every day and they look elsewhere for answers.They see Indians as being spiritual, which is rightfully so. They see us as invirometalists which is aslo true of most. We see all things as gifts from the Creater and thus to be respected. That is the basis of our religion and because the Eagle is promonent in our ceremonies the US Government requires us a Federal permit to pratice our own religion but I digress. Because of the internet they can easily learn much about our traditions and belief systoms as never before and they like what they see. Then you have those who only think they know what it is to be Indian. They don't see the problems on the reservations nor off. They want to play Indian, not be Indian. Their views are from tv and movies. Yes, you can ask why some idolise Indians. But  shouldn't you really be asking why anyone would idolise anyone else at all other than the Creater. The problem is far from limited to just idolising Indians. Heck, look at Michael Jackson who did his level best to be white. He was far from alone in his race to wish so. Now just imagine the crap I'd have recieved if I had asked, "Why would anyone Idolise White People? But though not as exsploted the fact remains many of other races do. However, again back to your question. I think it's simply that some look for a better way than they seem to have while other's just want to appear cool and some simply admire something they find reason to apreciate. As a soldier I fought for my Country and my people. Foremost that is the Tsalagi but for all Americans as well. You know, I've long had a saying. You've all heard America, love it or leave it. I've always said, America...love it or give it back. I put the love of my people and of this land above that of any govenment! Clear as mud my friend?


PS....Sorry, I missed answering part of your question. Indian Nations are subject to Federal Law, other than that they have the right to govern themselves.

Offline powderman

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2010, 11:02:16 AM »
I've seen attitudes from folks I thought I knew, that I'd of never dreamed of. POWDERMAN.  :( :(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2010, 11:09:28 AM »
Make up your mind spirithawk--
Is it the individual Indian
or
Is it the nation
Which deserves respect?

Dee
No I was not referring to a physical meeting but by PM's. You are real goofy.
Your defense of Spirithawk and the conversation has redirected, now, for the third time.
Find a ground to defend and stick too it.
Spirithawk hisownself has gone from the nation too the individual--too conservation.
It is clear that he does not know what he wants or what too ask for.
You just  seem to be a bobbing head on the dashboard with your defenses.
Are you certain you even have read all of it---you generally don't.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2010, 11:12:16 AM »
My mind has never changed. The kind of respect I'm talking about, as defined in the dictionary, applies to both. I ask for respect not admiration. Is it really that hard to tell the differance? And I know perfectly well what I ask for. I just told you! again! And since you speak yourself of not reading all of things, just why is it you fail to answer my much asked question of what gives you the right to judge anyone? It is you who seems to pick and choose what you want.

In the Air Force we once had a full week of racial discussions. Kind of a group therapy thing. It was due to the tensions at the time between blacks and whites. All week long I sat in the back quietly. Never spoke a word as I listen to both sides bicker, whine and complain. The last day a black airman noticed me sitting in the back grinning to myself. In a fit of anger he demanded to know why I was grinning and why I had never spoke a word all week long. I just grinned even bigger and said, " I'm Cherokee. And I'm just waiting for you to kill each other off so we can have our da** land back! Neighther side knew what to say and they all shut the h*** up! Since that day I haven't been shy about speaking my mind.  ;D

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2010, 11:25:17 AM »
On what grounds do you expect this too be granted?
Again--a nation or an individual does not deserve or, should expect, wholsale respect without earning it.
Historical generation is not deserving.
Because someone was born something does not qualify.
Just because a guy is a good guy from a good family does not mean that all/everyone who hears his name has or owes him respect.
Really--all I hear is a pity party going on.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Indian Idolization?
« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2010, 11:33:00 AM »
On what grounds do you expect this too be granted?
Again--a nation or an individual does not deserve or, should expect, wholsale respect without earning it.
Historical generation is not deserving.
Because someone was born something does not qualify.
Just because a guy is a good guy from a good family does not mean that all/everyone who hears his name has or owes him respect.
Really--all I hear is a pity party going on.
Blessings


You are full of questions. Question this, Question that. Never accept words for what they are. To you they must have hidden meanings. On what grounds you ask, again? Try your own Bible! Must someone read it to you?  Let me ask you a question. Not that you've answered one of mine yet. Do you believe in the teachings in the Bible? Aparantly not, if so you would never have to ask the questions you desperately keep asking though they've already been answered. The only whining going on is being done by you! Are you so dense that I have to break down the meaning of respect, after quoting the dictionay for you? I'm talking about the simple respect of one living being for another and for a people as a whole for the same reason. I'm talking about respecting another's beliefs without trying to make a mockery of it which seems to bring you joy for some sick reason as long as those beliefs harm no one. You, for reasons only you seem to know, want to distort my intent. You are doing nothing more than playing head games. As to the rest I am trying to extend knowledge and you wish to distort and  make a mockery of it, and if that doesn't work, why not simply suppress it? Your attitude is likea flea in a vast beach of sand. Iritating when encountered but nothing more. And like that flea, as numbers of membership here who are all better mannered go, you are at best less than a grain of sand. I'd debate farther with you but untill your words have value what would be the point?