Author Topic: Fast or slow burning powder in Remington 11-87 20 gauge? (Read 1131 times)

Thomas Krupinski · « **on:** November 27, 2003, 02:39:40 PM »

I have a 20 gauge Remington 11-87 that would not cycle with a 7/8 ounce load with faster burning Green Dot. It cycles with factory 2 and 1/2 dram equiv. loads and with 1 ounce loads with slower burning HS-7.

Does anyone know if the gas system on that design is optimized for either slow burning or fast burning powder. I asked that question to Remington Customer Support and got back an ambigious answer and no further elaboration.

trap55555 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2003, 03:54:27 PM »

Hi Thomas,
I would think the Green Dot would be fine. I would check to make sure the gun is operating as it should. I normally load Unique for all of my 20 Ga stuff. For the equivent load, the pressures should lower with the Unique but the duration may be longer, that might aid your cycling problem. But I would try some factory loads to make sure everything is working properly.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2003, 04:43:39 PM »

Thanks for the info,

To clarify the cycling problem, the bold does not go far enough back to completly eject the case and return. It functions fine with a number of 2 1/2 dram equiv. factory loads, but not with my 7/8 ounce Green Dot handloads.

I have used that Green Dot load successfully in pumps and break opens, and it it rated and 2 1/2 dram equiv. which is what the minimum for the 11-87 is stated to be.

What I am think is that the faster burning Green Dot is dispating enough of the gas prior to it reaching the gas ports to completly function the action.

I will build some 7/8 ounce loads using Unique later in the week, but I was hoping the Green Dot loads would work as they are very economical.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2003, 05:05:35 PM »

Tom, how much Green Dot are you using? My best recollection is I used to use 14.5 grains in the 20 ga. with 7/8 oz loads and 12.5 grains in the 28 ga. with 3/4 oz loads. Both worked Remington 1100s just fine.

GB

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2003, 05:33:40 PM »

I got the load from the Alliant website and it was using a Win AA case, Win 209 primer, WWAA20 wad, 7/8 ounce of shot with 11.2 grains of Green Dot.

I substituted an Orange Duster wad for the Winchester wad. Although I have not measured the load on my Crony, I believe it was listed as a 2 1/2 dram equiv. load with a velocity of 1200 or 1220 or something like that.

Well just checked the Alliant site again and looked up that load, it was only showing like 1100 fps and the dram equiv. was not listed. Bet that was what was causing the incomplete cycling.

Bill, do you have any load data for that combination that shows a higher charge of Green Dot?

Thanks,

Ka6otm · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2003, 05:16:23 AM »

Hi Thomas,

Got this from the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook 4th Edition:

Win AA case, Win 209 primer, WWAA20 wad, 7/8 ounce of shot with 14.5 grains of Green Dot, 1175 fps, 10,400 LUP.

GB was right...

Ka6otm

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2003, 06:07:50 AM »

Thank you Ka6otm,

That was what I was looking for.

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2003, 06:16:53 AM »

Yup Tom, I see Ka6otm beat me back here tho. Those are the loads I've been using in the two gauges for something near onto 30 years now and they sure have worked out fine for me. Don't think I've ever loaded any other powder or charge than that one in the 20 ga. I've tried a few others in the 28 ga than the one listed but none worked as well in my RP cases. In Win AA cases I have to use Winchester powder in the 28 ga as the case is a bit shorter and has less capacity and won't hold the same load as the RP and Fed cases do.

GB

Jack Monteith · « **Reply #8 on:** November 29, 2003, 07:56:51 AM »

We had the same problem with Green Dot in a Beretta 301. Not enough pressure by the time the wad passes the gas ports. Tried 16.5 grains of 800-X and everything else from Winchester, end of problem. 800-X is a bear to meter, so I switched to a fixed bar and bushing, instead of the adjustable bar in the Sizemaster. The adjustable bar doesn't centre under the bottle and doesn't fill well. Leave the powder baffle off too. This is far enough under the 18.0 grain max that a 1/2 grain variation doesn't matter. Confirm this data on page 237 of Lyman #4

Bye
Jack

Bob_K · « **Reply #9 on:** November 30, 2003, 03:52:50 AM »

Looking at some Skeet magazines and Skeet discussion groups I see where most Skeet shooters are now shying away from Green Dot loads in 20 ga because the powder is a little too fast. Seems the problem shows up as cracked tubes in the 20 ga. Most have gone to Unique. Tom's supposition that his bolt is not locking back is due to the speed of the powder may be correct. Upping to load could solve it, but only at higher pressure. I believe one generally selects the load that will give you the velocity you want at the lowest pressure. Higher pressure, besides the obvious wear and tear on the firearm, also tends to open up patterns.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2003, 12:47:24 PM »

Quote from: Jack Monteith

We had the same problem with Green Dot in a Beretta 301. Not enough pressure by the time the wad passes the gas ports. Tried 16.5 grains of 800-X and everything else from Winchester, end of problem.

The problem has never been with powder in Beretta 301 / 302 / 303 20 gauges, it has been with the inadequate gas port size itself. As a result, I've drilled out the gas ports (only 1 port has ever been necessary) in over 15 B-80 and A303 20 ga. barrels over the years to insure positive cycling.