To neck up or to neck down, that is the question! - Thanks for your answers!

[briannmilewis]

I am looking at necking up or necking down to create some wildcats from the 6mm BR Rem and 7mm BR Rem.

As there is no current BR Rem between the 6mm and 7mm, I do not have to care about thick or thin necks conforming to a published chamber specification.

I am looking at .257, .264  and .277 versions.

I know when folks neck down they just deal with any thick necks, and necking up a couple of calibers like .308 to .358 does not seem to be a problem creating thin necks.

So do I go up from 6mm to .257, .264 and .277, or do I go down to .277, .264 and .257 from 7mm, or does it make any difference?

I have to neck up from 7mm to .308.

Thanks

[Tom W.]

I've found that necking up is easier, and you won't have to turn your necks..






Sounds kinda out of place, doesn't it.......?

[briannmilewis]

I've found that necking up is easier, and you won't have to turn your necks..
Sounds kinda out of place, doesn't it.......?

Do you mean it is less press effort to neck up than neck down?

If I neck down from 7mm there is no neck spec, it becomes a wildcat, so I would have a custom die set and not have to worry about thick necks, unless there is something inherently bad about thick necks like less reloading case life?

[shot1]

When possible I would always neck up. When you neck down you most often have problems with what is called donuts that form in the INSIDE of the neck where the neck and shoulder meet after a few firings. Get a tapered expander ball and neck up is what I do. 

[yooper77]

I am looking at necking up or necking down to create some wildcats from the 6mm BR Rem and 7mm BR Rem.

As there is no current BR Rem between the 6mm and 7mm, I do not have to care about thick or thin necks conforming to a published chamber specification.

I am looking at .257, .264  and .277 versions.

I know when folks neck down they just deal with any thick necks, and necking up a couple of calibers like .308 to .358 does not seem to be a problem creating thin necks.

So do I go up from 6mm to .257, .264 and .277, or do I go down to .277, .264 and .257 from 7mm, or does it make any difference?

I have to neck up from 7mm to .308.

Thanks

Do you hand load anything?  Obviously it’s easier to neck up, but necking down is just as simple.  I create 338-06 A-Square from 30-06 Springfield without any headspace issues.  I also create 7mm-08 Remington from 308 Winchester brass and I don't ever need to turn the necks.

To think there isn’t any Bench Rest Remington cartridge between 6mm - 7mm is not entirely true.  I have seen 6.5 BR Rem.  The BR cartridge has been semi-wildcatted years ago its how it came to be.

yooper77

[trotterlg]

When you neck up the neck gets shorter and when you neck down the neck gets longer.  The shortning or lengthening is where most of the material goes to or comes from, so it doesn't thin down or thicken up as much as you would think it would.  Larry

[Sweetwater]

In my extended memory, (couldn't resist, my wife is trying to get her ipod running - I asked her to please change the record on the turntable) I recall a 270 Wren, but at the moment can't recall if it was in fact a BR or a 308W parent case. Any memories?

Necking up is easier for me to split a neck. Necking down is easier for me to crack a shoulder. I don't anneal and simply discard what can't be used to make something else. Kinda like pick your poison, grease up and get in the game.

[briannmilewis]

Do you hand load anything?  Obviously it’s easier to neck up, but necking down is just as simple.  I create 338-06 A-Square from 30-06 Springfield without any headspace issues.  I also create 7mm-08 Remington from 308 Winchester brass and I don't ever need to turn the necks.

To think there isn’t any Bench Rest Remington cartridge between 6mm - 7mm is not entirely true.  I have seen 6.5 BR Rem.  The BR cartridge has been semi-wildcatted years ago its how it came to be.

yooper77

Yep, 22 Hornet. And yes I stand corrected, I only found the 6.5 BR Rem after I posted.

Donuts on the neck are a common topic and it now makes sense to me that necking up appears to have less issues.

Is there a necking up caliber limit like 3 or 4 calibers?

[briannmilewis]

When you neck up the neck gets shorter and when you neck down the neck gets longer.  The shortning or lengthening is where most of the material goes to or comes from, so it doesn't thin down or thicken up as much as you would think it would.  Larry

Bingo Larry...I had not read that before...what a learning experience...my mind said the neck must be getting thicker or thinner is the problem.

So if the neck thickness is not a problem, necking up is the way to go.

[briannmilewis]

In my extended memory, (couldn't resist, my wife is trying to get her ipod running - I asked her to please change the record on the turntable) I recall a 270 Wren, but at the moment can't recall if it was in fact a BR or a 308W parent case. Any memories?

Necking up is easier for me to split a neck. Necking down is easier for me to crack a shoulder. I don't anneal and simply discard what can't be used to make something else. Kinda like pick your poison, grease up and get in the game.

So we now add to the mix annealing, which we should all be doing before a small change, and before and after a big change.

[trotterlg]

The annealing produces it's own set of problems.  If you are doing a function that puts a lot of stress on the case, annealing can cause the case collapse or crush because it is not as strong.  Everything has a cost.  Larry

[briannmilewis]

The annealing produces it's own set of problems.  If you are doing a function that puts a lot of stress on the case, annealing can cause the case collapse or crush because it is not as strong.  Everything has a cost.  Larry

So, if the changes to a case are big, there may be a point at which annealing before is a bad idea. So would you still anneal afterwards as folks like Redding suggest?

[trotterlg]

I could not be considered an expert by any standard.  If I were necking up, I would anneal, necking down I would anneal after the necking down.  If you are bumping the sholder back also, then there is a lot of stress on the case, so this may be a problem if you soften them up too much before you do the resizing.  It is all just black magic, try some things and do what works for you.  Larry

[Axehandle]

I'd think that key factors would be how much change you are making and your chamber neck.  I'm always more comfortable using 223 instead of 221 for 300 Whisper...  The 223 is trimmed into the case body and ends up being necked down..  The 221 goes from 224 to 308...  Had some trying experiences in the past with bench guns with tight chambers and necks.  Might be fun for a bench gun but totally inappropriate for a field gun..
Just about to neck a 405 Winchester to 257 here for a 257 GNR...  Gary Reeder offers sizers to step down to the smaller bore.   Planning to size down in at least 3 steps.   Feeling pretty good about it today...

[Win 1917]

I recall a 270 Wren, but at the moment can't recall if it was in fact a BR or a 308W parent case. Any memories?

The parent case for a 270 Ren is a 22 Hornet. It was designed specifically for shooting IHMSA Field Pistol.

I would neck up no question because you can start with Lapua brass and specify a no turn neck to keep it simple. If you neck down you're stuck with Remington. Not bad brass but not Lapua. Personally I would go with the 6.5mmBR. It's a solid deer round and a killer paper puncher.   

 

[briannmilewis]

I recall a 270 Wren, but at the moment can't recall if it was in fact a BR or a 308W parent case. Any memories?

The parent case for a 270 Ren is a 22 Hornet. It was designed specifically for shooting IHMSA Field Pistol.

I would neck up no question because you can start with Lapua brass and specify a no turn neck to keep it simple. If you neck down you're stuck with Remington. Not bad brass but not Lapua. Personally I would go with the 6.5mmBR. It's a solid deer round and a killer paper puncher.   

 

Funny how many conversations from a lot of different sources come back to 264 caliber...to make 6.5mm BR Rem brass, run a Lapua 6mm BR Rem case thru a 6.5mm BR Rem die? I do not want to mess with necks either.

Does the standard 22 BR Rem case made by necking down 6mm BR Rem, require any neck work, or has that been accounted for in the chamber specs?

[Win 1917]

Yep, .264 is the logical choice for a number of reasons. If you're into target shooting the bullet selection is far better than 257 or 270. If you're into hunting, higher BC bullets are available so you get longish range deer/varmint round in a small efficient case. This is just my opinion but if you wanted to go with a 257 or 270 diameter bullet use a little bigger case like a 308 (or something equivalent)so you can start the bullets a little faster and you'd have a pretty nice hunting set-up.

If you have a tapered expander ball  on the dies you can run 6mm BR into your new dies and bingo. As far as the chamber specs, the person chambering the barrel probably already knows what you want. If not, a simple way to find that is to start by loading up a round first then you know what the finished neck diameter is and you/gunsmith can specify the chamber dimension accordingly.

I don't know much about the 22 BR. I'm sure it's a wildcat so there wouldn't be any standardized SAAMI specs for it. Uisng the same procedure as above though you can empirically determine a good no-turn neck.      

[briannmilewis]

If you have a tapered expander ball  on the dies you can run 6mm BR into your new dies and bingo.    

I have used Lee dies in the past, but I have also been studying Redding and RCBS catalogs quite carefully to see if they yielded any further clues for me.

I see Redding has Tapered Sizing Buttons as a separate part, and they seem to address necking up specifically.



Redding's listings of dies does not say they have these tapered sizing buttons in any of their dies as standard.

So for example, I buy a set of Redding 6.5 BR dies and swap out the sizer button for the .22 to 6.5mm tapered sizer button, and then run a 6mm BR case thru the 6.5 die and I end up with a 6.5 BR correctly formed case?

Can I avoid the cost of custom 6.5 dies by just using the 6mm die with the 6.5mm tapered expander the first time, then use the 6mm dies with a regular 6.5mm ball expander after that?

To give RCBS their due, they only talk in terms of Expander dies specific to each caliber. And Lee only has a Universal Case Expanding Die for flaring case mouths to aid bullet seating.

Therefore I am assuming that of the three - Lee, Redding and RCBS - the tapered expander buttons and dies from Redding is my obvious and only option among these three companies?

One more question to round out the discussion:

"If you neck down you're stuck with Remington. Not bad brass but not Lapua. "

Is this because Lapua do not make 7mm BR brass?

One more question:

If I have to neck down, make it as few caliber sizes as possible and watch for thick or donut necks?

Many thanks again for spoon feeding this newbie a steady diet of great information.

[yooper77]

If you have a tapered expander ball  on the dies you can run 6mm BR into your new dies and bingo.     

I have used Lee dies in the past, but I have also been studying Redding and RCBS catalogs quite carefully to see if they yielded any further clues for me.

I see Redding has Tapered Sizing Buttons as a separate part, and they seem to address necking up specifically.

Redding's listings of dies does not say they have these tapered sizing buttons in any of their dies as standard.

So for example, I buy a set of Redding 6.5 BR dies and swap out the sizer button for the .22 to 6.5mm tapered sizer button, and then run a 6mm BR case thru the 6.5 die and I end up with a 6.5 BR correctly formed case?

To give RCBS their due, they only talk in terms of Expander dies specific to each caliber. And Lee only has a Universal Case Expanding Die for flaring case mouths to aid bullet seating.

Therefore I am assuming that of the three - Lee, Redding and RCBS - the tapered expander buttons and dies from Redding is my obvious and only option among these three companies?

 

You can find them from others not just Redding. 

I have been using RCBS Tapered Expanders for years.  I replaced them in all my RCBS dies, for necking up.  I used the RCBS 25-06 Remington assembly for my 25-35 Winchester dies, and guess what its works the same.

This one sells for $21.99, but look below.
RCBS Replacement Tapered Expander-Decapping Assembly 6.5mm BR (Bench Rest)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=887929

This one is on sale for $12.71 and will do the same as the above assembly, just might be a little longer.
RCBS Replacement Tapered Expander-Decapping Assembly 6.5x55mm Scandinavian
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=148244


Yep, Hornady New Dimension Dies come with hardened steel elliptical expander.

Lee dies, I don’t know I don’t use them.

Dies are not the place to scrimp on money, buy the correct 6.5 BR dies.  If you go the other way you will over work the case mouth before you even take one shot.

yooper77

[briannmilewis]

yooper77 - I see that RCBS only lists the tapered expander in their special order catalog that's why I did nopt pick up on them earlier...thanks for pointing me in the right direction there.

So you can play swap the decap/expander assembly to give you what you want...so I could put a 264 neck on a 25-35 by using the 260 Rem decap/expander assembly in the 25-35 die? I like having more choices rather than just the one Redding source. Yay!
 

[yooper77]

yooper77 - I see that RCBS only lists the tapered expander in their special order catalog that's why I did nopt pick up on them earlier...thanks for pointing me in the right direction there.

So you can play swap the decap/expander assembly to give you what you want...so I could put a 264 neck on a 25-35 by using the 260 Rem decap/expander assembly in the 25-35 die? I like having more choices rather than just the one Redding source. Yay!
 

You can swap between dies of the same caliber, not different.  I bought a tapered expander decapping assembly for a 25-06 Remington and used it in my 25-35 Winchester die.  These are both 257 caliber dies.

If you change the assembly to a different caliber then the die the internal die dimension will still form the brass to 257 caliber then the 264 caliber tapered button will open it back up going in and coming out.  This will change the neck size twice work hardening and probably crack on the first firing.

Or are you just going to insert the case far enough to expand then pull it out?  If so I am not sure it would work, maybe.

I strongly feel you need to use the correct die for the cartridge.  I realize 6.5 BR Remington dies are expensive, but that’s wildcatting.  Me personally I would choose the 260 Remington or 6.5x55 Swedish if I wanted a 6.5mm round.

yooper77

[Win 1917]

If you change the assembly to a different caliber then the die the internal die dimension will still form the brass to 257 caliber then the 264 caliber tapered button will open it back up going in and coming out.  This will change the neck size twice work hardening and probably crack on the first firing.

Or are you just going to insert the case far enough to expand then pull it out?  If so I am not sure it would work, maybe.

I strongly feel you need to use the correct die for the cartridge.  I realize 6.5 BR Remington dies are expensive, but that’s wildcatting.  Me personally I would choose the 260 Remington or 6.5x55 Swedish if I wanted a 6.5mm round.

+1, sound advice all the way around. Wildcats are expensive. If cost is an issue then stick with factory rounds.

[Tom W.]

Just because I wanted to, I've necked up .270 cases to make 30-06 cases, 25-06 cases to make 30-06 cases, 30-06 cases down to .270 cases, .280 cases to 30-06, and all of the above have been fire formed to make 30-06 A.I. cases. I also made a few .243 and 7mm -08 brass into .308 brass. I've had no issues with them, but did use the Hornady dies to do most of the expanding.

 I did try a case I was given to neck down to 7mm Rem mag. and got an awful donut, so I just discarded that case.