Author Topic: The auto loading pistol ! (Read 1677 times)

SHOOTALL · « **on:** July 06, 2010, 03:13:31 AM »

I have expressed the qualitys of a revolver and carry one . I like the Ti framed S&W J frame 357. It is easy to hide . Light etc.
I belive the revolver brings many strengths to the table but one that can't be omited with out consederation is number of rounds in the gun . Its my opinion that the J frame can be on me at most times . It is also easy for me to have a full size hand gun close ie; in the truck . I feel comfortable with this set up most of the time and when I don't then either i leave or don't go to the place I'm not comfortable or I add the larger gun on my person . In winter this is easy in summer one must get creative. That said the larger round count of the self loading pistol makes good sense ? yes /no . Also the round and bullet must be considered . A 9 mm hi-cap with ball ammo vs a 7-8 shot 357 mag revolver with 125 gr JHP , I would go revolver here . But say a Para ord. LDA with 14 , 45 acp gold dot vs that same revolver i would go with the para .
Any ideas ?
Guess my back up is putting the cart first as it is what many consider the main gun but it works for me.

Dee · « **Reply #1 on:** July 06, 2010, 03:37:24 AM »

SHOOTALL, I have carried at one time or the other, the Para P-13 in 45acp, the Commanders, the Lightweight Commanders, the full size 1911s and so on, and one of the best was the Glock 23 in 40s&w, and liked them all for what they were. The nines were very short lived in my carry stable although I spent 10 years training officers to fight with them, I could not in clear conscious carry one myself. On one occasion AFTER an actual fight in 1978 where a car was used for cover, I left the 1911 behind and immediately went back to the 357 magnum.
After leaving L.E. after 20 years I went back and forth between the 45acp and the 357mag, and finally settled on the 357mag most likely permanently. If after 5 to 7 rounds I am still fighting, what I'm doing isn't working, and I need to think about leaving. Even in the 1978 incident I only fired 5 rounds and it was over. In my present environment, all fighting will be purely defensive, unless a family member is threatened, and then the perp will find hell coming out of no where.
Round capacity looks good on TV with running gun battles and such, but my experience, and the experience of friends, it's over as fast as it starts. I'll take the power over the quantity. If your happy with lots of 9mm, or 45acp then by all means carry it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2010, 03:46:10 AM »

Dee guess that was in the back of my mind better ammo is better than hi-cap but here with the drug use and gangs sometimes round count might make a difference . With regard to TV how do they get those old clots to shoot 10-12 times or more with out reloading ?

WD45 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2010, 05:50:08 AM »

That 8 shot 357 is a dang big bugger

We seem to assume that only LEO situations would require shooting at someone hiding behind an object. Who's to say that the bg wont duct behind something and keep shooting at you. In my mind you have no idea what you are going to run into and where you are going to run into it. We play these things over and over in our minds but the problem is you have no idea what the bg will do until he does it. If you can get away from the situation great but what if you can't. Who's to say the only way out wont be through the bg. I say carry both if you can

williamlayton · « **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2010, 09:59:53 AM »

Dee is most probably right---I have been known to carry a J frame a time or two.
My prefrenc for 1911's and Sigs of the same genre is mainly because of pointability, weight and, lastly, round count. I like the carryability of a Semi over a roller.
That said, I don't think that I am taking advantage with the extra bullets.
I think you might like one of the double stacks in .38Super offered by STI.
Blessings

spruce · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2010, 01:38:40 PM »

SHOOTALL - just curious....Why did you compare 9mm ball to good JHP loads in the .357 and .45ACP? Kind of like apples to oranges. Also, how about the .40S&W - same size package as the 9mm, more ooomph, only a couple or three less rounds?

I think revolvers and semi's both have their own unique advantages. Nothing beats a J-frame for pocket carry (as long as you don't get carried away and put big, sticky rubber grips on it!). And a semi-auto, especially a compact version, is much more comfortable (for me, at least) for carrying IWB - where it's easy to conceal under even relatively lightweight clothing.

Lastly, just an observation. If anyone ever wondered why manufacturers make so many different action types, chamberings, barrel lengths, etc, etc they only have to read a few of these types of discussions to find the answer - each of us have our own personal preferences and a concensus is never reached!!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #6 on:** July 07, 2010, 08:27:49 AM »

spruce , I was pointing out the ammo used also plays into the deal. I see little use for 9mm ball ammo in a hand gun for defense. I also pointed out the HP ammo for the 45 . I carry a 340 pd with 125 gr hjhp ammo most of the time and feel well armed . BUT in some cases I don't like out doors where distance may be involved . Ok why would distance play a part ? once while comming down the river in a canoe fishing a guy on a cliff above the river took 3 shots at us hitting close enough to cover us with water . We were miles from the landing and it was before cell phones - I would have loved to have had a rifle with me . Larger guns ie; better to aim might be the choice if larger critters also enjoy the out doors you are in .

spruce · « **Reply #7 on:** July 07, 2010, 01:07:29 PM »

Went back and re-read your original post - I get the gist of it now.

Should have re-read it before I replied - or at least put on my glasses the first time!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** July 08, 2010, 07:37:07 AM »

I do that all the time . I guess we hear the samt old yarns all the time we speed read thru. new material

mrussel · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2010, 09:56:55 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 06, 2010, 03:13:31 AM

I have expressed the qualitys of a revolver and carry one . I like the Ti framed S&W J frame 357. It is easy to hide . Light etc.
I belive the revolver brings many strengths to the table but one that can't be omited with out consederation is number of rounds in the gun . Its my opinion that the J frame can be on me at most times . It is also easy for me to have a full size hand gun close ie; in the truck . I feel comfortable with this set up most of the time and when I don't then either i leave or don't go to the place I'm not comfortable or I add the larger gun on my person . In winter this is easy in summer one must get creative. That said the larger round count of the self loading pistol makes good sense ? yes /no . Also the round and bullet must be considered . A 9 mm hi-cap with ball ammo vs a 7-8 shot 357 mag revolver with 125 gr JHP , I would go revolver here . But say a Para ord. LDA with 14 , 45 acp gold dot vs that same revolver i would go with the para .
Any ideas ?
Guess my back up is putting the cart first as it is what many consider the main gun but it works for me.

Or 40S&W. Not my favorite,I prefer a full sized 1911 (my choice for a 9mm would be a 38 super and for a .40 would be a 10mm),but a lot of people like it.

pneuby · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2010, 02:41:54 PM »

There's a training specialist in the use of the snubnose by the name of Michael DeBetencourt. He's addressed the issue of 'capacity' very well on his blog. (I will attempt to torture his thought process as little as I can.)

If you are accosted by multiple attackers, your response is still conducted "one at a time". Your fight is with one assailant, with the possiblity of more fights right behind the first one.

You shoot the one/s with the lethal weapon/s FIRST, in order of their proximity-lethality. Usually, the one with a gun take's priority over one with a knife, of course, unless that knife-wielder is closest to you. Everyone is entitled to firsts before allowing for second servings.

You guys get the idea, I'm sure, so there's little need for scenarios.

What we forget is the assailant's response to your obvious unwillingness to being victimized. After you shoot Perp #1, is #2 really going to keep moving in to you? Or if you hit #1 and #2, is the third possible attacker beginning to turn on his heels? The answer is probably obvious to you. Your average street scum is looking to exit...stage-right, and quickly!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2010, 07:31:53 AM »

I have had instructors pass that along also . I think more along the lines of the guy(s) on drugs soaking up lead like a sponge .

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2010, 08:07:43 AM »

Unless you are in law enforcement, I don't figure round count to be much of an issue. Even less so if you are outside your own property. I make it a priority to not be somewhere that a multi-gun, multi-attacker situation may occur. A couple shots should bring most situations to an end be it good or bad. If I truly was concerned I would carry a long gun, or more likely stay home.

I use an auto loader simply because I have them. I learned with them and am familiar with the feel and controls. I carry single stack guns with 7 and 8 round capacity, that has as much to do with grip length and comfort as it does with concern over capacity.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2010, 02:53:20 AM »

It would be nice if we all could NOT BE where a gang would not attack us but for many that's not an option. It could be as simple as car trouble on a trip and you get off at an exit that is in gang land .

williamlayton · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2010, 02:50:31 AM »

Is there a rule that limits the number of times you can shoot a person?
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2010, 03:01:41 AM »

the rule of how much ammo you can carry !

williamlayton · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:43:22 AM »

Guess i need a double stack then.
Blessings

Bigeasy · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2010, 10:06:42 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on July 20, 2010, 02:50:31 AM

Is there a rule that limits the number of times you can shoot a person?
Blessings

I think past three is considered rude.....

Larry

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2010, 10:33:36 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on July 20, 2010, 09:43:22 AM

Guess i need a double stack then.
Blessings

try a LDA

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2010, 10:58:54 AM »

Quote from: Bigeasy on July 20, 2010, 10:06:42 AM

Quote from: williamlayton on July 20, 2010, 02:50:31 AM
Is there a rule that limits the number of times you can shoot a person?
Blessings

I think past three is considered rude.....

Larry

I think past three is bad marksmanship.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2010, 11:09:18 AM »

not if the target was a film producer who had wronged your daughter

williamlayton · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2010, 01:23:21 PM »

To all of the above:

Blessings

mrussel · « **Reply #22 on:** July 21, 2010, 07:33:06 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 19, 2010, 02:53:20 AM

It would be nice if we all could NOT BE where a gang would not attack us but for many that's not an option. It could be as simple as car trouble on a trip and you get off at an exit that is in gang land .

Thats true. However I could imagine dozens,maybe hundreds of situations where I would need a particular weapon,but most are not likely. What you should do is honestly ask yourself what might happen and how likely it might be. Maybe a group of 5 or 10 wackjob white supremacist anti-government domestic terrorists might burst through the door where I work,stand in a small group and start shooting up the place,and boy will I feel like an idiot for not packing a grenade launcher in my lunch box,but its not likely. Its vastly mor e likely that I will be one of the areas of town that's not exactly terrible,but not the nicest place either. Maybe on my way back to the car with that sweet 1950s vintage Sears shotgun that I found at the pawn shop (still with the stupid trigger lock that they sell them with),some thug will come up and decide hes going to relieve me of my new to me shotgun, along with my wallet,because he needs money for crack and the pawn shop refused to buy the obviously stolen set of tires he tried to unload. I don't need 57 rounds to deal with that (although a few 12ga shells would be nice).

You can never be 100% prepared for ANYTHING that might happen. Maybe that cop that pulled you over is an impostor,better not let him take your gun during a traffic stop. Maybe there's a sniper waiting for you outside your apartment,better climb in the back window. Its a perfectly reasonable thing to carry a gun to protect yourself,becuase its quite reasonable to expect that there is a very real chance that someone may threaten you with deadly force at some time in your life. Its also perfectly reasonable to carry spare ammo,and if the gun you prefer happens to hold 19 rounds ,its perfectly reasonable to carry that. If I carried something that carried 19 rounds,I wouldn't worry to much about spare ammo though. I would carry a single spare magazine,to deal with malfunctions,but I wouldn't expect that I would ever really need over 50 rounds to protect myself. In my opinion its a rather remote possibility.

On the other hand,that may vary by person. If you live in an area with a lot of gangs,or have even had threats from them,then yea,I would carry a lot more firepower. If I felt that I could reasonably expect that someone was going to come packing enough firepower and man power to start WWIII,I would carry enough to end it.

While I may not feel I need to carry a lot of ammo,and in fact I don't think MOST people need to carry a lot of ammo, thinking about it,I don't think I can second guess any particular persons need for it. I don't know their situation,where they go or where they live.

mrussel · « **Reply #23 on:** July 21, 2010, 07:34:56 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on July 20, 2010, 10:58:54 AM

Quote from: Bigeasy on July 20, 2010, 10:06:42 AM
Quote from: williamlayton on July 20, 2010, 02:50:31 AM
Is there a rule that limits the number of times you can shoot a person?
Blessings

I think past three is considered rude.....

Larry
I think past three is bad marksmanship.

My understanding is that its not considered ethical to leave them laying there suffering,but you don't want to just keep shooting and ruin a lot of meat..... That goes for thugs and gang members as well as deer and elk,right?

Officer: "How many shots did you fire?"

Me: "Well,I fired one that I swear should have dropped him right there but he ran off. Took me a good hour and a half to track the blood trail and finish him off."

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** July 22, 2010, 02:19:39 AM »

If you wish to make sure the attacker never ever tries again the just field dress um !

williamlayton · « **Reply #25 on:** July 22, 2010, 08:15:50 PM »

Dahlmer comes to mind Shootall.
Blessings

mrussel · « **Reply #26 on:** July 22, 2010, 08:42:44 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 22, 2010, 02:19:39 AM

If you wish to make sure the attacker never ever tries again the just field dress um !

meat pies anyone?

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2010, 09:31:30 AM »

Shoot all,
I like the premise.
But you are comparing apples to oranges.
a 38 Special is equal to 9mm
45 colt /44 Spl/ 45 ACP out of a revolver are equal to 40 or 45 out of an auto.
357 mag is in a class by it's self.
When comparing a small framed 38 to a sub compact 9mm
K or L framed revolver to a full sized 9mm
and a large frame (N) revolver to a full sized 45.
When looking tat the J frame 5 shot to a 6 to 8 shot sub compact. the one extra round does not make a big diff but the 3 could.
when looking at a K or L framed 6 or 7 shot compared to a 15 to 17 shot 9mm more than double the ammo does make a difference.
When looking at the large framed revolvers and 6 rounds vs 8 to 10 rounds in an auto....
I am a revolver fam but can see where an auto for CCW would be the way to go.
Back in the late 80's early 90's Chuck Taylor (Not the shoe guy) wrote an article for G&A comparing the 357 mag to the 45 ACP.
His premis was the 357 needed to be in an N frame to stand up to the full house loads.
and that an N frame was way to big for every day carry but the 1911 was perfect.
He went on and on about the 1911, bashing the K and new L frames and the wimpy 125 grain 357 loads needing heavier 158 grain loads.
All came to an end of the article with the 1911 is the best carry gun but if you were a revolver fan the S&W 625, M1917 or other 45 ACP would suit your needs. I then thought why is an N frame in 45 magicly smaller and easier to carry than the same gun in 357 mag?
Realized this guy drank the cool aid from the cult of colt and did not know why ut wanted to be one of the bishops of the cult.
My thinking is if you look at frame size vs frame size, ammo equal to other ammo and weight make a desicion of what fits your needs, you can shoot well and you can depend on to go bang when needed. If that is a revolver, Great.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** July 26, 2010, 02:25:37 AM »

When one picks a carry gun he must pick from all types of fruit not just apples and oranges . The auto brings the mostest and biggest in the smallest package in most pratical carry platforms . My 340 PD will offer alot of power for a small gun but not the fire power of a auto even the small ones hold 6 or more ,