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Offline Double D

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Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« on: July 08, 2010, 10:27:17 AM »
I just finished reading all the volumes of David Poyers Civil war at Series http://www.esva.net/~davidpoyer/civilwar.htm.  

The books were published in what is called trade paper back- 5" x 8".  

Here are the three titles. They historical fiction and are well worth reading.  Anyone else read these book?   
 
FIRE ON THE WATERS: A Novel of the Civil War at Sea

In FIRE ON THE WATERS, Elisha Eaker is twenty, the scion of a wealthy and politically connected mercantile family in Manhattan.  As war looms, Eli joins the sloop of war U.S.S. Owanee as a volunteer, as much to escape his impending marriage to his headstrong cousin Araminta as to defend the flag.  There he meets Lieutenant Ker Claiborne at his own moment of decision.

Claiborne,  an Annapolis graduate, has seen action in the West Indies and the Africa Station as part of the U.S. Navy’s Antislavery Patrol.  Cool and competent in storm or battle, Claiborne now faces an agonizing choice between his two loves -- the Navy, and his native state of Virginia, which is on the verge of declaring for the fledgling Confederacy.  He knows no matter which he chooses, he'll be called a traitor.  How can a man who values honor renounce his oath?  But how can a man who loves his family, and his state, fight against them?

These two men, the Yankee and the Southerner, the volunteer and the regular, will personify the two sides in the desperate conflict that begins in 1861.  Together with their rationalist shipmate, engineer and freethinker Theodorus Hubbard; Eaker’s cousin and fiancee, horsewoman, thespian, and eventual spy Araminta Van Velsor; and escaped Georgia slave turned Navy gunner Calpurnius Hanks, they will face storms, mechanical breakdowns, official blundering, treachery, and eventually the test of battle in the greatest war in American history.


A COUNTRY OF OUR OWN

We first met Lt. Ker Custis Claiborne, formerly of the United States Navy, in Fire on the Waters.  By his own admission, Claiborne is "no admirer of the institution of Hamitic slavery."  Its horrors struck home on antislavery patrol along the Coromandel Coast in the 1850's.  But he's also a Virginian.  When the North decides to preserve an outworn Union by force, his course is clear.  In A Country of Our Own,  he "goes South", joining first the Virginia Navy, then the fledgling Confederate States Navy in April, 1861.

After defending the shores of the Potomac alongside the hastily mustered troops of the Army of Virginia, Ker runs the blockade out of New Orleans aboard a converted sidewheeler turned Confederate raider.  He and his saturnine  mentor Captain Parker Trezevant burn, sink, and destroy across the Caribbean, to undermine the Union's financial might and force a truce favorable to the Confederacy.

But when that first cruiser proves unstable, under-armed, and short-legged, Ker joins Commander James Bulloch in England, to buy or build a ship of war that can sweep Union commerce from the seas.  When a daring coup puts Ker in command of the fastest, most dangerous raider ever to range from Brazil to Boston -- the ex-opium clipper C.S.S. Maryland -- he'll set Yankee seamen a-tremble wherever the water's salt and seagulls scream.  And maybe even, decide the issue of the war.  

THAT ANVIL OF OUR SOULS


We first met Eli Eaker, Theodorus Hubbard, Araminta Van Velsor, Alphaeus Steele, Cal Hanks, and Ker and Catherine Claiborne in Fire on the Waters.  Then, in A Country of Our Own, Ker Claiborne took the war North as captain of the most dangerous Confederate raider ever to put to sea.    Now That Anvil of Our Souls takes us into the turrets and casemates of the most historic sea engagement of the Civil War.  In New York, Theo Hubbard, engineer for a revolutionary new “fighting machine” called the Monitor, compromises his future by accepting a bribe.  In Norfolk, Catherine Claiborne faces her husband’s impending hanging for piracy, the death of their baby daughter, and the bitter realities of enemy occupation.

In Richmond, Lt. Lomax Minter searches for a spy who threatens the Confederacy’s ultimate weapon: an invulnerable ironclad named Virginia, rebuilt from a sunken wreck in a race against time.  While the aging Dr. Alphaeus Steele witnesses the horror that’s the aftermath of glory; and gun-captain and escaped slave Calpurnius Hanks struggles with the demons of his past and the challenges of freedom.

 Poyer’s vivid fictional characters join meticulously researched historic figures to re-create the bloodiest conflict in American history – one whose reverberations will endure as long as freedom, equality, and home have different meanings in proud and unyielding hearts.


Offline Frank46

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Re: Free plus postage, Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2010, 06:13:13 PM »
DD, I have the third one in the series and is an excellent read. I have always been fascinated by the civil war. Frank

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2010, 05:38:50 PM »
Frank,

If you are looking of the other two inthe series query David Poyer on www.ABEbooks.com.  I got all three of these books there for $3.85 each postpaid. Far cry from  $13 to $20 the cost when published.

I have read  Civil War Historical fiction before, most dealing with the land war. This is the first I have read of Navel operations in the Civil War.

The description of deployment  of the various Civil War era cannons and ships as well the description of the ships construction is very interest.  The writing is fiction so some of the key players have different names than the real players.  Deployment of Dahlgren boat howitzers to support troops inthe field, the effects of IX Dahlgren on wooden ships, it goes on and on.

The description of shipboard life is also very interesting...The details and politics of the era and thought process makes you think.  When entering a foreign port does a Confederate ship render honors to a Federal ship.  Or is the captured captain of a CSN Raider treated as a prisoner of war or a pirate and what happens to captured Federal Naval Officer if the Federal hang the CSN Captain as a pirate.

Poyer did some excellent research for these books.

I have read his other book of the modern  Navy and they are good, just not as good as this historical fiction.  Anyone else read thees,


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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2010, 07:54:38 PM »
Douglas, thanks for the tip. Barnes and Noble usually have many books at discounted prices. Will look up your address and see if I can get the other two. Thanks, Frank

Offline Double D

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2010, 08:12:33 PM »
I bought the first two books from Barnes and Noble just before I went to South Africa.  Use to buy a lot of books from them before I found ABEBooks.com.   

Here is the link list from  www.abebooks.com

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=david+poyer&kn=civil+war&sts=t&x=62&y=14

Here Barnes and Noble

http://productsearch.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.aspx?store=book&TTL=&ATH=david+poyer&WRD=civil+war+at+sea&PRC=&FMT=&AGE=&USRI=civil+war+at+sea&CAT=&PN=

Offline Zulu

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2010, 03:48:17 AM »
I just finished reading all the volumes of David Poyers Civil war at Series http://www.esva.net/~davidpoyer/civilwar.htm.  

The books were published in what is called trade paper back- 5" x 8".  

Here are the three titles. They historical fiction and are well worth reading.  Anyone else read these book?   
 
FIRE ON THE WATERS: A Novel of the Civil War at Sea

In FIRE ON THE WATERS, Elisha Eaker is twenty, the scion of a wealthy and politically connected mercantile family in Manhattan.  As war looms, Eli joins the sloop of war U.S.S. Owanee as a volunteer, as much to escape his impending marriage to his headstrong cousin Araminta as to defend the flag.  There he meets Lieutenant Ker Claiborne at his own moment of decision.

Claiborne,  an Annapolis graduate, has seen action in the West Indies and the Africa Station as part of the U.S. Navy’s Antislavery Patrol.  Cool and competent in storm or battle, Claiborne now faces an agonizing choice between his two loves -- the Navy, and his native state of Virginia, which is on the verge of declaring for the fledgling Confederacy.  He knows no matter which he chooses, he'll be called a traitor.  How can a man who values honor renounce his oath?  But how can a man who loves his family, and his state, fight against them?

These two men, the Yankee and the Southerner, the volunteer and the regular, will personify the two sides in the desperate conflict that begins in 1861.  Together with their rationalist shipmate, engineer and freethinker Theodorus Hubbard; Eaker’s cousin and fiancee, horsewoman, thespian, and eventual spy Araminta Van Velsor; and escaped Georgia slave turned Navy gunner Calpurnius Hanks, they will face storms, mechanical breakdowns, official blundering, treachery, and eventually the test of battle in the greatest war in American history.


A COUNTRY OF OUR OWN

We first met Lt. Ker Custis Claiborne, formerly of the United States Navy, in Fire on the Waters.  By his own admission, Claiborne is "no admirer of the institution of Hamitic slavery."  Its horrors struck home on antislavery patrol along the Coromandel Coast in the 1850's.  But he's also a Virginian.  When the North decides to preserve an outworn Union by force, his course is clear.  In A Country of Our Own,  he "goes South", joining first the Virginia Navy, then the fledgling Confederate States Navy in April, 1861.

After defending the shores of the Potomac alongside the hastily mustered troops of the Army of Virginia, Ker runs the blockade out of New Orleans aboard a converted sidewheeler turned Confederate raider.  He and his saturnine  mentor Captain Parker Trezevant burn, sink, and destroy across the Caribbean, to undermine the Union's financial might and force a truce favorable to the Confederacy.

But when that first cruiser proves unstable, under-armed, and short-legged, Ker joins Commander James Bulloch in England, to buy or build a ship of war that can sweep Union commerce from the seas.  When a daring coup puts Ker in command of the fastest, most dangerous raider ever to range from Brazil to Boston -- the ex-opium clipper C.S.S. Maryland -- he'll set Yankee seamen a-tremble wherever the water's salt and seagulls scream.  And maybe even, decide the issue of the war.  

THAT ANVIL OF OUR SOULS


We first met Eli Eaker, Theodorus Hubbard, Araminta Van Velsor, Alphaeus Steele, Cal Hanks, and Ker and Catherine Claiborne in Fire on the Waters.  Then, in A Country of Our Own, Ker Claiborne took the war North as captain of the most dangerous Confederate raider ever to put to sea.    Now That Anvil of Our Souls takes us into the turrets and casemates of the most historic sea engagement of the Civil War.  In New York, Theo Hubbard, engineer for a revolutionary new “fighting machine” called the Monitor, compromises his future by accepting a bribe.  In Norfolk, Catherine Claiborne faces her husband’s impending hanging for piracy, the death of their baby daughter, and the bitter realities of enemy occupation.

In Richmond, Lt. Lomax Minter searches for a spy who threatens the Confederacy’s ultimate weapon: an invulnerable ironclad named Virginia, rebuilt from a sunken wreck in a race against time.  While the aging Dr. Alphaeus Steele witnesses the horror that’s the aftermath of glory; and gun-captain and escaped slave Calpurnius Hanks struggles with the demons of his past and the challenges of freedom.

 Poyer’s vivid fictional characters join meticulously researched historic figures to re-create the bloodiest conflict in American history – one whose reverberations will endure as long as freedom, equality, and home have different meanings in proud and unyielding hearts.



I was the lucky receipient of these three books from DD.  I am in the process of reading the first one.  One of the guns on board ship is a pivot Dahlgren.  Several times the gun crew has had to "draw the charge" from this gun.  Once, because the charge was damp and once to pull "shell" and replace with grapeshot. 
My question is how is this done?  It seems to me that to pull a live shell from any gun would be a daunting task.  I haven't figured it out yet. 
Anyone know the answer?
Zulu
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Offline Zulu

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 03:59:12 AM »
I'm sure one of you guys knows the answer to the above question.
Navygunner?
Mike or Tracy?
Zulu
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Offline Double D

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 11:05:23 AM »
I know how to get you an answer.  I will speculate how it may be done and everyone will break their neck to prove me wrong.

The spoon or ladle is run in the bore long side up until it reached the back of the bore. It is then rotated so the long part is onthe boottom and the load is pulled out of the bore.

 

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 11:11:10 AM »
A ladle.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 11:22:39 AM »
Or to quote John Muller, when discussing windage, "... lower the muzzle and the shot will roll out."
GG
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Offline Zulu

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 11:38:19 AM »
The shell won't roll out.  If it could it would roll with the ship. ???
I don't think a ladle would ever get by the windage of the shell.
Damp charges were a fact of life in the Navy.  This had to be a common occurance.  With a muzzel loading rifle you use some type of threaded drill thing (I think).  That wouldn't work with a shell.
And with a Parrott Rifle for instance, You have the front detonator to get by.
The mystery deepens.
Zulu
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Offline navygunner

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 11:58:56 AM »
Actually the ladle is correct and would have been made to patterns. One could also be done bydepressing and striking the muzzle against the lower sill of the port, or by running the gun out hard against the side at extreme depression. Part 1, pg 75, article  267; Ordnance Instructions for The United States Navy 4th edition 1866. This section deals with a stuck or jamed shot or shell. However later in Part 3,pg. 74 art. 235 it states that the ladles are not to be used to withdraw rifled/elongated shells. There is mention also about a robinson worm and it's use in removing wads and cartridge bags.

Wrong wood lol.

NG

Offline Zulu

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 12:19:44 PM »
A wooden ladle could get by the windage of a shell or ball? ???   I would have thought that ladles were long obsolete by the Civil War.  Round solid shot was "packaged" with the sabot and powder bag.
In the case of the Dalghren in the book I  read, it is on a 360 degree track and certainly could not be rammed against anything.  I am very interested in this answer.  I can't figure out how I would do it.
Have any of you shooters out there ever had to pull a ball?
Zulu

By the way, I finished this book.  It is extremely well written by someone who has excellent command of the English language.  I daily looked forward to picking it up and thoroughly enjoyed it.  Poyer knows his way around ship rigging as good as anyone I ever read.
While the book was very exciting to read, there was no cannon fired in anger by the main characters till the last few pages of the book.  I missed the action of ship board battle.  But this was the very first few days of the start of the war.
All in all, I would highly recommend this as very good reading.  I look forward to starting the next book in the series.
Zulu
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Offline navygunner

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 01:15:46 PM »
Zulu, the great guns used a powder charge and a round. The shot/shell was separate from the larger powder charge since the charge varied with the range of the target. The sabot was to keep the fuzed positioned properly. The rifle shells had  bands  some brass some paper mache that engaged the rifling. The smaller howitzer rounds such as the 12/24 pounder had fixed ammo.

geo

Offline Double D

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 01:24:37 PM »
You will get plenty of gun fire in book two.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 02:20:36 PM »
If it was a Dallgren  'shell' it would have had a sabot on the back of the Dalgren shell to keep the fuse end up .

It wouldn't roll out .

Gary

 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2010, 02:54:36 PM »
Perhaps not "roll" out, maybe slide out.
GG
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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 12:35:16 PM »
For those of you that have it, "Round Shot and Rammers" has a picture on pages 29 and 67 of a tool called a "searcher with reliever" that looks to me like it possibly could be used to pull a round from a barrel.  It looks like the time frame for these tools is pre 1800's.
Any opinions?
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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2010, 01:18:59 PM »
On page 32 it says the searcher was used to check bores for holes or cracks.  With the hooks facing outward, I doubt they'd be very useful at retrieving a stuck ball.  I think if the loaded round wouldn't slide easily enough out, it probably wouldn't allow a ladle in very easily either, though it could certainly be tried.  If the round were actually stuck, I imagine the decision would be made to shoot it as is, or if it were absolutely necessary to clear it without shooting, you'd probably have to drill out the shell, before which you'd want to soak the powder charge.

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2010, 01:39:41 PM »
Pulling shells on board ship with damp powder had to be routine.  Slamming the gun carriage hard against the side just doesn't seem very effective to me on something that had to be routine.  Can you imagine the Captain giving the order to replace damp cartriges and all the gun crews slamming their carriages against the side of the ship at one time? ;D :D ;D :D :o
Navy Gunner,
I'm sure that method had its use but there must have been a better way.
I will continue my search.
Zulu
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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2010, 01:47:59 PM »
Somebody send Poyer an email and ask him how irt was done? He  wrote it, he should knw,

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2010, 02:06:20 PM »
I just sent an email with the question.
We will see if the email address I found on Google is good, then we will see if I get an answer.
His web site welcomed comments and said that he tries to respond to all questions.
Good idea DD!
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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2010, 02:47:22 PM »
It's not the first time I have seen reference to pulling charges and loads.  O'Brian references checking charges  in his Aubrey-Maturin series. I believe I have seen mention in the Hornblower series also.

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2010, 05:12:46 PM »
Well,
His answer was very fast if not informative.  What did the "iron screw" screw in to?  Certainly it just doesn't screw into an iron ball. ??? ???

Mr. Zulu,
 "My 1862 USN Ordnance Manual is packed away in storage so I cannot look up what you wish, but if memory serves, a long staff tipped with an iron screw was used to draw a charge."
 
best wishes,
 
Dave Poyer.
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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2010, 05:26:01 PM »
Well, maybe you can find a copy of the "1862 USN Ordnance Manual" online.  Or at least one with an answer since earlier ones should have addressed the same question.
GG
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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2010, 06:36:32 PM »
Both are references from Ordnance Instructions for the United States Navy 1866
Quote
ROBINSON'S WORM.

234. This worm consists of a screw, 1-1/4 inch in diameter, of two
turns, at the end of a cylindrical iron shank, with a socket and
straps riveted to the staff, which is 1.5 inch in diameter. The worm
is supported in the axis of the bore by means of a guide-ring of
composition, kept in place on the shank, six inches from the end, by a
shoulder and forelock.

Thus adjusted, it is used to draw the junk-wad and cartridge; the
latter being laid hold of by the tie, if the staff be held in the axis
of the bore, is uninjured.

When the ring is removed the worm will be equally efficient in drawing
the selvagee wad.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19058/19058.txt

Additionally Google Books (can download PDF):
Ordnance instructions for the United States navy 1866 (Click on the Page 74 link)

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2010, 06:39:01 PM »
A TEXT-BOOK
NAVAL ORDNANCE. AND GUNNERY.
PREPAltED FOR THE
USE OF THE CADET MIDSHIPMEN
UNITED STATES NAVAL ACADEMY.
BY
A. P. OOOKE,
COMMANDER, U.S.N.,
SECOND EDITION:
REVISED AND ENLARGED.
VOLUME II.
NEW-YORK :
JOHN WILEY & SONS, 15 ASTOR PLACE.
1880.
 
1343. WITHDRAWING PROJECTILES.. If, in loading, a
projectile jams in the bore, no attem'pt should be made to
force it down, but it should be withdrawn.
This may be done with the ladle, by depressing and striking
the muzzle against the lower sill of the port, or by running
the gun out hard against the side, at extreme depression.
Should these means fail to start the projectile, it will
be necessary to destroy the charge by pouring water clown
the vent and muzzle, and then introduce a small quantity of
powder and blow it out.
Should a projectile jam in the bore in action, the gun
captain will not attempt to withdraw it, but discharge the
piece at once.


1345. KEEPING GUNS LOADED. Guns should never remain
loaded longer than necessary, as the cartridge speedily
deteriorates by the effects of moisture. If a shell has been
loaded twenty-four hours, it should be drawn and re-fuzed.

1346. RUNNING OUT. As the projectile slides in the
gun with very little friction, particular care should be taken
not to let the carriage strike with too great a shock in running
out, as it will surely start the projectile from its seat.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2010, 06:50:32 PM »
Additional quote from the source I referenced above (possibly the source of Double D's source).  I included a little bit more to help understand the likelihood that there would be any difficulty in removing a shot or shell in such a manner.

Quote
263. No wad is required over a shell, but a selvagee wad may be used
in heavy rolling.

264. When loading with shot a selvagee wad is placed over it. A
part--half or a third--of a selvagee wad, is equally efficient in
holding the shot in place.

265. Shells should be used against Ships at all distances where the
penetration would be sufficient to lodge them. They are of no service
in breaching solid stone walls, but are very effective against
earthworks, ordinary buildings, and for bombarding. For these purposes
a good percussion or concussion fuze is desirable, but no reliable
fuzes of these kinds have as yet been devised.

266. Solid shot should only be used when great accuracy, at very long
range, and penetration are required.

267. If, in loading, a shot or shell jams in the bore, no attempt
should be made to force it down, but it should be withdrawn. This may
be done with the ladle, by depressing and striking the muzzle against
the lower sill of the port, or by running the gun out hard against the
side at extreme depression.

Offline Double D

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2010, 07:19:36 PM »
Both are references from Ordnance Instructions for the United States Navy 1866
Quote
ROBINSON'S WORM.

234. This worm consists of a screw, 1-1/4 inch in diameter, of two
turns, at the end of a cylindrical iron shank, with a socket and
straps riveted to the staff, which is 1.5 inch in diameter. The worm
is supported in the axis of the bore by means of a guide-ring of
composition, kept in place on the shank, six inches from the end, by a
shoulder and forelock.

Thus adjusted, it is used to draw the junk-wad and cartridge; the
latter being laid hold of by the tie, if the staff be held in the axis
of the bore, is uninjured.

When the ring is removed the worm will be equally efficient in drawing
the selvagee wad.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19058/19058.txt

Additionally Google Books (can download PDF):
Ordnance instructions for the United States navy 1866 (Click on the Page 74 link)

Next paragraph after the above.

LADLES.

235. Ladles, when required, are to be made according to the patterns
sent to each of the Navy Yards. Ladles which may be on hand are to be
tried in drawing projectiles from the guns before they are issued for
service. The Ladle will not draw rifle projectiles, and should not be
used for that purpose.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Poyers 3 volume Civil war at sea
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2010, 12:31:47 AM »
Not sure how I missed that one! ;D