Ballistically +/- identical - 25-06 and 7mm-08: Which would you choose and why?

[HogFan]

Though not a Handi, I did have a TC Encore in 7mm-08 that I used for mule deer and antelop when I lived in MT. I never felt under gunned, but I had it to do again, and was just sticking with deer and antelope I would get a .25-06.

[mechanic]

IMO there are numerous rounds that mimic each other ballistically.  Some are falling by the way side, like .222 vs. .223.  Others are enjoyed by experimenters and "hot rodders" and would have little use to folks who are just hunting with them.

Ain't it great to live in a place where we still have choices?

To each his own.  My Dad liked the odd balls, and enjoyed fire forming brass.  Me...I just like something that is sufficient, accurate and cheap to reload.

Ben

[Swampman]

If .280 had been a choice I'd have picked it too.

[ihookem]

If  hunting in the woods I'd get a 7 08 with a short barrel. If open country I'd get a 25 06 with a longer barrel. Does that make sense?

[MSP Ret]

sounds sensible to me, but the 7mm-08 even with a standard length 22" Handi barrel would be powerful enough and accurate enough for deer hunting out to 250+ yards itself....<><....

[NFG]

Hahahahahahahahahah...Spanky...I think the 175 gr boolits are so long the 7-08 case would end up full of bullet instead of powder and be about as useful as a popcorn phat...of course if you throated it out long you might get it to go bang instead of pop... LOL

I had to long throat my 7RM and single load to get the LONG 175 gr Sierra and Berger match bullets to stay in the neck out of the way of the powder....never even thought about using them in the 7-08...160's are a bit overweight too but at the 7-08 velocity they penetrate almost like a solid.

Hey...it's ALL good...some is only a little better.

Luck

[NickSS]

I have owned and shot ga e with both calibers and I have had good results with both as to accuracy and killing ability.  However, I felt that the 25-06 offered me nothing special as to range and flexability when compared to other rifles and calibers I owned at the time (270 Win and 30-06) and in addition it was really loud for the area I varmint hunted in.  The local farmers were upset with the "cannon" I was using (Tehy never objected to my 243 so go figure) So I sold it.  The 7-08 was also a great cartridge but offered me little when compared to other rifles I had (306, 7X 57 and 6.5X 55) so I ended up selling it off.  If I had the choice you have I would definately pick the 7-08 as it is a much more flexible cartridge with a much better selection for bullets and bullet weights.

[myarmor]

I have said it over and over again, give us more choices in a 26' barrel and we would all be happy. The extra velocity is always appreciated

[yooper77]

Folks, looking for some opinions backed up by reasons...there are no wrong answers.

Not that is matters much but a better caparison would be 270 Winchester vs. the 7mm-08 Remington.

I believe armchair ballistic technicians need to close the websites and get out and shoot.   Yea that are fun to look at, but field results are the best for proper education.

If I found a cheap priced 7mm-08 Remington barrel, I would go that route or look for a 270 Winchester, 280 Remington or 30-06 Springfield barrel since action length isn’t an issue.

yooper77

[MSP Ret]

I have two .280 Remington Handi barrels, one short one, aka "Thunderboomer", and another full length tackdriver. I also have a 25-06 Handi barrel but I most often grab the shortened .280. I have never used the 25-06 in the woods. I also have a 7x57 barrel I use but continue to keep my eyes open for the 7mm-08 Handi barrel that I want to get. I have a Browning BLR in 7mm-08 and it is a fine cartridge and a great caliber. There are many, many fine bullets available in .284 and the cartridge is up to just about whatever you would ask of it (.280 especially but the 7mm-08 is a close second), within reason of course....The .284 diameter bullet is what lends both the .280 Remington and the 7mm-08 to such wonderful versatility....<><....

[NFG]

I totally agree with Myarmor....there are several cals that would benefit greatly with the addition of 4-6" and the overall Handi length wouldn't be more than most standard short barreled bolt guns.

At least it would give happyness to those that like longer barrels...

I REALLY like the T/C 28" Pro barrels but I can't justify any of the available calibers so my Encore has no brother's(sisters?).

I think a better way to compare is in equal case size...308 case and it's cousins rather then '06 case against 308 case...243, 260, 7-08, 308, 358 etc...then it boils down to bullet weight comparison more than anyhthing else.

But...again...all comparisons do usually is get the pot stirred up...it always starts out gentle then jumps one toke over the line...or more...and as he said "there are no WRONG answers"...just opinions...we always try to prove out "favorite shooter" is the BEST that can be had.

It seems strange to me after all these years of shooting and building rifles than I've NEVER had a 270 Win or even thought about actually building one.  At one time I had a over a dozen different rifles and pistols in 7mm covering just about every case size available, standard and wildcat and several duplicates, but I never could justify a 270.  I always went with 7mm cal because of the heavier bullet availability...not that there is ANYTHING wrong with the 270 W...I don't want to get into that usless argument.  I lost a good friend and hard headed shooting buddy that got that argument started over and over again on several hunts until he was no longer welcomed.  

One good thing about going with the larger case tho'...you can ALWAYS down load to whatever energy level you want or up as far as your ....s will let you.  

Luck

[necchi]

Not that is matters much but a better caparison would be 270 Winchester vs. the 7mm-08 Remington.

I believe armchair ballistic technicians need to close the websites and get out and shoot.   Yea that are fun to look at, but field results are the best for proper education.

My first deer was shot with a 270 years back, the bullet hit a rib and turned straight up into the shoulder, it caused minor damage to one lung,,we chased that thing through a thick Minnesota tamarak swamp for 4 hours! It knew we were comming and kept moving. I traded it off for a 3006 and never went back.
Thus the comment I made in my 1st post in this thread;

And I've always held the too the standard, "If your gonna shoot a 30-06 case, it might as well be a 30-06"

[yooper77]

Not that is matters much but a better caparison would be 270 Winchester vs. the 7mm-08 Remington.

I believe armchair ballistic technicians need to close the websites and get out and shoot.   Yea that are fun to look at, but field results are the best for proper education.

My first deer was shot with a 270 years back, the bullet hit a rib and turned straight up into the shoulder, it caused minor damage to one lung,,we chased that thing through a thick Minnesota tamarak swamp for 4 hours! It knew we were comming and kept moving. I traded it off for a 3006 and never went back.
Thus the comment I made in my 1st post in this thread;

And I've always held the too the standard, "If your gonna shoot a 30-06 case, it might as well be a 30-06"

I don’t know the make or weight of your bullet that you used in your 270 Winchester, but I do realize nothing is perfect and stuff happens.

If I ever shoot an animal that goes out of sight after the shot and isn’t seen going to down within sight, I always wait a minimum or 1½ hours and absolutely never deviate from my rule.

I use only 150 grain bullets out of my 270 Winchester with IMR 4831 powder.  My 270 Winchester has always so far delivered complete pass through at ranges up to 300 yards and game has fallen within my sight.

I have friends that use 130 grain bullets in their 270 Winchesters. but even at 50 yard ranges their bullets don’t always exit.

I have a 338-06 A-Square if I need a bigger bullet, I am grateful for the 30-06 Springfield since I use its brass for my hand loads.

yooper77

[necchi]

If I ever shoot an animal that goes out of sight after the shot and isn’t seen going to down within sight, I always wait a minimum or 1½ hours and absolutely never deviate from my rule.

Yes, I'll give ya that, it was a youthfull mistake and lesson learned. The deer was knocked over, an I darn near jumped out of that stand, only to turn and look at the backside of that critter headed fast into the swamp!
 Then I foolishly gave chase 

[Spanky]

Alot of us have made the same mistake.



Spanky

[Handi-Fan]

Okay here comes my 2 cents worth. My 7mm-08 isn't a Handi omgod... It's a Ruger compact with a 16" barrel of all things. My choice over 25-06 in a bolt gun but, in a single with same weight bullet you have 6 of one or a half dozen. What I mean is flip a coin.... their both great in their own right. I just prefer short rounds. My 7-08 with 140 or 150 Nosler Bal. Tips have the same point of impact out to 175yds. with the same powwder charge of H380. And as said before you just have a larger bullit selection in 7mm. If you after deer size game either one if larger game is on the ticket 7mm-08.

[Spanky]

Hahahahahahahahahah...Spanky...I think the 175 gr boolits are so long the 7-08 case would end up full of bullet instead of powder and be about as useful as a popcorn phat...of course if you throated it out long you might get it to go bang instead of pop... LOL
I had to long throat my 7RM and single load to get the LONG 175 gr Sierra and Berger match bullets to stay in the neck out of the way of the powder....never even thought about using them in the 7-08...160's are a bit overweight too but at the 7-08 velocity they penetrate almost like a solid.
Hey...it's ALL good...some is only a little better.
Luck

Lee's 2nd edition lists 19 loads for the 7-08 using 175gr. bullets... velocity ranges from 2276fps to 2516fps... should be plenty useful.



Spanky

[ihookem]

Necchi, your story cracks me up! I know I lost deer with a bow from not waiting too. On the other hand I never lost anything with my 270 win. Also, I don't care about bullet  pass throughs. All depends where you shoot. If it's getting late and drizzle/ rain I shoot above the leg. My 270 doesn't pass through but puts the deer down with in 0-30' . If there is snow on the ground and no wolf tracks in the area I put it through the ribs and let it run. ( my little boy always loved tracking anyway.  As for longer barrels, I can't stand them. I might take my Rem. 700 in 270 (22" barrel) and get rid of 4". No matter with a 20yd shot in the woods. Oh well, let the debate continue.

[dpe.ahoy]

I prefer the 7mm's over 25's.  Don't get me wrong, I like the 3 25-06's and the 2 257 Roberts that I have and enjoy useing them.  However, living in Montana, when I go hunting most of the time it's with one of my 280's, (3) or 7mm-08's, (5).  If I'm going to hunt river bottoms or tight timber, 35 Rem on up in caliber is my choice.  The 7mm's buck the wind better with the heavier bullets, less drift since it's normally blowing out on the plains or in the mountains where I hunt.  7mm-08 has less recoil if that's a consideration.  Everyone already said, depends on what you hunt and where.  DP

[tykempster]

7mm-08 will own at longer ranges with heavy, high BC bullets, and can probably shoot lighter bullets just as fast.

[wreckhog]

I was hunting some relatively populated land last fall, and my bud was hunting between the parking lot and the handball courts in a ground blind. With a Ruger 1. 3 shots, then the cell phone call. Bring the golf cart around to pick up the deer and bring it to the house (200 yards away). Wondered what the 3 shots were. Deer was 30 feet from the ground blind. It bedded down next to the ground blind. 1st shot missed. It stood up. 2nd shot killed the deer. 3rd shot? Well he reloaded and left the gun against a tree. Boom. That what 35 more years of hunting experience than me gets ya. Anyway, we are dressing the thing and I am looking for a hole. He shot it in the ass. Still died. Yup .270 kills em everytime.

[Sourdough]

OK Let's look at a few things here.  Maximum Effective Range.  Most bullets are designed to perform at speeds of no less than 2000 fps.  The distance it takes for the bullet reach 2000 fps is it's Effective Velocity Range.  Energy needed to effectively bring down a deer sized animal is around 1000 FT Pounds, to do sufficient damage to make an immediate kill.  The distance the it takes the bullet to reach 1000fps is it's Effective Energy Range.        I'm a long distance shooter so this is an important issue with me.  Below you will find the result of my search on these two and the comparison.  I looked at all the differant bullet weights for each and selected the Maximum Effective Bullet for each.

25-06, 110gr bullet, 525 yards, 2023 fps, and 1000 ft lb.  Sighted in for 200 yard zero, this bullet is 18.5" low at 400 yards.

7mm-08, 140gr bullet, 400 yards, 2000 fps, and 1243 ft lb.  Sighted in for 200 yard zero, this bullet is 23.2" low at 400 yards.

As you can see, the 25-06 has the higher Maximum Effective Range, even thou it is shooting a lighter bullet.  That extra 125 yards can make a big differance to someone like me.  The 25-06 also has the flatter trejectory.

I have and would again opt for the 25-06 over the 7mm-08.

[Spanky]

There's that 1000 pounds of energy rule again. What happens at 800 pounds of energy? Do the bullets bounce off?



Spanky

[yooper77]

Aren’t ballistic charts fun?

Under actual field conditions the 45 Colt with 255 Keith at approx 900 FPS is approx 370 FT LBS at 50 yards, but still cuts through deer like butter.

yooper77

[Spanky]

I'm bettin' my 18" 44mag would probably work too. We'll see this fall.



Spanky

[Mac11700]

There's that 1000 pounds of energy rule again. What happens at 800 pounds of energy? Do the bullets bounce off?



Spanky

If the manufacture says a hunting bullet of theirs operates between a set of velocities..then it is usually best to use that bullet at those velocities..not because they will bounce off..but because they will fail to perform as the manufacture has intended them to do.many..(not all  BTW ) fall into the 1000 ft.lb. of energy with their velocity or close to it. All of this doesn't mean a great deal to those using hard cast bullets or monolithic solids..but to those using many of todays tipped jacketed bt designs.They need that energy(ie velocity) to expand as designed to do, and as such fall into their classification for penatration and weight retention. It's a rule of thumb folks have gone by for a very long time,and there will always be exceptions to it,because of the various types of bullets and the differences in ranges people shoot..and also because of the various opinions on the subject.

Mac

[quickdtoo]

Here's Nosler's velocity requirements for reliable expansion with their bullets.

Tim

http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1347

Partition:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1800 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- N/A


Ballistic Tip:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1600 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 3000 fps


AccuBond:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1800 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- N/A

[Sourdough]

OK, the question was asked what happens at 800 ft pds of energy.  Bullet performance is down and sufficient damage is not done to drop the animal on the spot.  Many animals are lost due to poor performance of the bullet.   

Lets take my 30-06, I shoot a Sierra 165gr HPBT at over 2800 fps.  At 400 Yards it has slowed down to 2000fps and 1465 ft pds.  From personal experience I can continue to shoot out to 500 yards with good results, by then the energy should be approching that 1000 ft pd mark.  But beyond 500 yards the animals I hit have to be run down or tracked for long distances.  Oh yea every once in a while one would drop dead on the spot, but that was not the rule.  Usually they ran for quite a distance, sometimes for miles.  Therefore I limit my shots to 500 yards or less with the 30-06.

Yes I can hit them out to 700 yards, but can not make a humane kill beyond 500.  I hate Wolves, but no need to make them suffer.

[Mac11700]

Here's Nosler's velocity requirements for reliable expansion with their bullets.

Tim

http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1347

Partition:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1800 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- N/A


Ballistic Tip:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1600 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 3000 fps


AccuBond:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1800 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- N/A

Even though Nosler's velocities are stated at a higher rate..manufactures like them always figure in a "fudge factor" when discussing things like that..They have to plan for the worse case scenario and be able to say without liability where their bullets will perform at the optimum speed for good expansion on a clean pass through, and from my conversations with them,this is double the bullet diameter.Most folks who use them already know the partitions will open up pretty easy when bone is hit, and even if it doesn't open to double the diameter will work beautifully and penetrate adequately.  Also when you factor in their ballistic tips in the 30 cal and under..they open up way under their posted velocities..( sometimes too much )... so these work way beyond the scope of what's posted. Bottom line the 1000 ft.lb energy rule is a very good rule of thumb to adhere to in many cases for those who don't know all the particulars of the bullet they are using.It isn't written in stone..but a guideline.

Mac

[Sourdough]

Mac:  Want to relate a story about the 30 cal, 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.  Nosler says it is for big game, OK so I loaded up a box.  I took them out Caribou hunting.  I shot a small Caribou, I do mean small, about the size of a Whitetail Buck.  Using my NEF, 30-06, I made a 40 yard neck shot, thinking I would drop it instantly.  The bullet blew a hole about the size of a softball in the neck.  Very shallow, little Caribou just wandered off.  Never fell or even staggered.  At 80 yards I made a second shot in the middle of the hole in it's neck.  This time the little guy fell instantly.  Still there was no damage beyond the spine.  I won't use Nosler Ballistic Tips on anything bigger than a Coyote.  Rog