The value of education...

[Victor3]

 I was reading job postings at my work the other day for a couple of engineering and management positions. I thought it was a shame that my company recently dropped the "....or equivalent education and experience" note on their postings and will now only consider applicants with an advanced degree for certain positions. Even if a candidate were to have a Bachelor's degree and 25 years of experience actually doing the job, a kid fresh out of college with a Master's would be hired instead.

 I recall what a mentor of mine told me back when I fancied myself a wonderboy...

 "Knowledge is a good start but experience is how you learn to apply it correctly. If everyone under 50 were removed from the planet there wouldn't be enough wisdom left to run it."

 Sad state of affairs when being able to pay tuition, put in your time and pass tests is valued more highly than solid, documented performance.

[magooch]

Experience without a foundation of formal education can be limiting just as education without experience is incomplete.  Business, or any enterprise should value both equally.

[Curtis]

Victor3 I agree, but maybe I'm biased.  I work in industrial automation (packaging) including robotics, also instrumentation and process automation.  Other than a four year IBEW apprenticeship ('82 to '86) giving me a good foundation in the electrical field, I have no formal training other than a one week siminar here and there.  I can excel at what I do because it interests and fascinates me.  I also learn a lot from most educated "engineers" about how NOT to put a project together.  I was fortunate enough years ago to work under an engineer who recognized that my abilities far outstripped his.  Like the elephant in the room, we never talked about it, but he let me handle several projects from top to bottom including all of the electrical drawings, specifiying the instrumentation and hardware and hand picking the crew to help put it in.  I did all of the programming, integration and handled the startup of production, which was more in line with my job title.  The fact that I designed and built the system with that in mind really made for a smooth start up.

In defense of many good engineers, they are pressured to turn out lots of work and move on to the next job.  Sometimes that forces them to make compromises.  I usually am the one who ends up having to deal with those compromises, hense some of my bias I think.

My best friend and a former co-worker is now doing engineering and design of automated control systems with nothing but a 10th grade education.  Like me, he started in the 80s getting experience in an industrial maintenance setting, and being the cream he just rose to the top over the years.  Some of the things he comes up with are brilliant.  He has a feel for the work that cannot come from any amount of education.  The only drawback I see is that he cannot work for a company who has strict prerequisites.  Also, many times he has to get in through the back door via folks who know of him and his work.  If he tried to go through the personel department, he'd never get on the premesis the first time.

Education is great when paired with experience, but many times experience can stand alone with no help at all.

Just my not so humble opinion,
Curtis

[Spirithawk]

What iritates me is that I see so many with high scool diplomas and even college degrees that can't do simple math, nor spell and who have trouble reading. They aren't even knowlegable in simple grammar. It's shamefull! Kids are passed just to make room for the next bunch.

[powderman]

Even if a candidate were to have a Bachelor's degree and 25 years of experience actually doing the job, a kid fresh out of college with a Master's would be hired instead.




YEP. And for a lot less money, the real reason. POWDERMAN. 

[Hooker]

I worked for a company that hung up on college degrees
I have a GED and they would not let rise above supervisor. I built and maintained a irrigation SCADA system for them . They would not let me do the job with out a Electronics Engineer to over see the work. He showed up once to look at my blue prints and schematics and said you don't need my help. I never saw him again but he still calls me for advice. After a basic education I'll take experience and common sense over a sheep skin every time.

Pat

[Pat/Rick]

Sure do know alot of guys who's years of experience are worth more than what somebody learned at a college. Anymore schools are an introductory course and not much else from my observations anyway. Sat as a fabrication dept liaison with the engineering dept in a global company to let the train drivers know what would work and what would not and in many cases modify designs to ease manufacturing problems. I have always thought that architectural and engineering students should have to work their summers "in the trades" as a requirement to graduation. Not as designers or overseers, but getting their hands dirty so they know what works and what doesn't. Same with business management students. Alot of folks in college are learning from someone, who learned from someone, who learned from someone what they learned college. NO practical experience at all. And they think they should get payed more than a 25+ year experienced journeyman??

[Victor3]

Victor3 I agree, but maybe I'm biased.  I work in industrial automation (packaging) including robotics, also instrumentation and process automation. 

 Curtis,

 I know I'm biased.

 I worked in your field for 13 years (manufacturing bottling inspection and product coding systems). Fortunately it was at a private company where the owner didn't much care what your education was as long as you performed. About half of the people designing machines and managing the company had little formal education, but I've never worked with a group that was able to take a project from concept to market more efficiently.

 As it should be, an expert toolmaker who couldn't even turn on a computer was valued (and paid) just as highly as a mechanical engineer. There was no imaginary wall based on education or job classification to prevent them from sitting down together to hash out the best way to make something happen.

[Victor3]

Sat as a fabrication dept liaison with the engineering dept in a global company to let the train drivers know what would work and what would not and in many cases modify designs to ease manufacturing problems.

 That takes me back. 

 Years ago an old timer machinist asked me to come listen to his machine as he was taking a cut on a part. He asked...

 "Listen closely..... What do you think?"

 Puzzled, I asked "What? Sounds alright to me. Something wrong?"

 He replied "No, but since you're an 'engine-ear' and this is an engine lathe, I wanted you to put your ear next to it to make sure it's okay. Oh, wait. Did you say you used to work for Southern Pacific?"

[Conan The Librarian]

This sort of thing happens at every economic downturn. There have been times in my market where a PhD has been required to fill entry level positions. Now it's common to see ads requiring a BS with experience or a masters degree with no experience. It has the effect of giving companies somebody they can mold into their own culture rather than importing baggage from other companies. In other words, for many jobs and companies, previous experience is a bad thing.

[blind ear]

Powderman has it, money. The bottom line governs all. That is capitalism. The most return for the least investment.

Along with hireing the "young degree" at less money comes the loss of "loyalty" to company, another casualty of moderm management technique. That loss of loyalty transfers deep and wide. It isn't fought when companies are allowed to move manufactureing off shore "with" our governments assistance" in the disguise of helping to develope less advantaged countries.

The same lack of loyalty is exhibited and promoted by a "mobile society" where people freely and quickly pick up and move from here to there to suit the repuirements of the job and company. This mobile society helped bring about divorce laws that allowed quicker less demanding divorces, one more step in weakening home and family unity.

Few families have the luxury of staying local and connected. We scatter to the winds and lose the bonds.

"Previous experience" is a bad thing for the company when the experienced employee sees the negative result for the employees from the policies of the company.
Don't  p*$$  on my head and tell me it's raining.

eddiegjr