Author Topic: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle  (Read 3212 times)

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Offline matthew_h

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first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« on: July 10, 2010, 04:04:15 PM »
hey guys i bought a 1939 tula 91/30 off of a classified here in MI . its in ok shape  , paid $80 for it and 60 rounds of new ammo (40 Olympic and 20wolf) . it shoots but i can hardly keep in on a piece of paper from 40 yards benched . from 15 yards knelling best i can do is keep it in two inches .

after shooting and a good cleaning i examined the crown . its is extremely worn . its not been counter bored  . the bore is great up until the last inch or two . what should i do ? i wanted to build a clone PU sniper but now i don't think i want to due to the bore . if i can get it counter bored would it shoot any better ? i will get some pictures up in a few minutes .  

edit here are the pictures .



edit got better pics ,  i think it may not be as bad as i thought , it may just need the crown touched up  .




what is a good solvent to clean it up a bit better with ? it looks like it may still need some more cleaning .


Offline torpedoman

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2010, 07:17:10 PM »
take a round and insert it into the muzzle see were it stops thats a good indication of wear. yours looks better than most. try a recrown.
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Offline matthew_h

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2010, 08:54:16 PM »



how is that ? not sure how far the bullet should go but thats as far as it fits without force .

Offline S.S.

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 06:41:28 PM »
Don't take 5 minutes to recrown the muzzle,
try it and see what it does for accuracy.
Over sized round head slotted bolt, power drill and
some polishing compound and you are good to go. ;)
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2010, 06:55:41 PM »



how is that ? not sure how far the bullet should go but thats as far as it fits without force .

You are good to go thats a fine muzzle-- in m1's you mark in 1/16's from the case ,and the case is wore out and every mark equals a wear gauge number.
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Offline mrussel

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 08:46:01 PM »
hey guys i bought a 1939 tula 91/30 off of a classified here in MI . its in ok shape  , paid $80 for it and 60 rounds of new ammo (40 Olympic and 20wolf) . it shoots but i can hardly keep in on a piece of paper from 40 yards benched . from 15 yards knelling best i can do is keep it in two inches .

after shooting and a good cleaning i examined the crown . its is extremely worn . its not been counter bored  . the bore is great up until the last inch or two . what should i do ? i wanted to build a clone PU sniper but now i don't think i want to due to the bore . if i can get it counter bored would it shoot any better ? i will get some pictures up in a few minutes .  

edit here are the pictures .


edit got better pics ,  i think it may not be as bad as i thought , it may just need the crown touched up  .



what is a good solvent to clean it up a bit better with ? it looks like it may still need some more cleaning .



 The first thing you should do of course is give it a thorough cleaning. I start with Hoppes #9. I then use a product called Butches Bore Shine,which removes among other things copper. I then run Shooters Choice copper remover,then Shooters Choice lead remover,then JB bore polish,then finish up again with Hoppes #9,repeating the cycle except for the JB Bore Polish until it gets clean. You want to do the polish sparingly. On one of mine I spent 6 hours on it and I'm still getting blue patches from the copper removers and black patches from the others. Do not let many of these soak in your barrel for more than a 10 or 15 minutes,they are very aggressive.  Once I have the whole thing clean,I run a patch lightly moistened with Shooters Choice FP10 oil down the bore to protect it.
  Many of these things have layers of crud built up. I noticed that I would think I have all the crud out because a Hoppes patch is coming out clean,then I run a patch soaked with copper cleaner down it and it comes out blue. I keep going until those patches come out clean and go back to Hopes and it comes out black. When that one finally comes out clean,the copper cleaners come out blue again.
  One thing to keep in mind is its a crap shoot what you find underneath. Ive found some nice,and some not so nice. I have a Mauser that came out in between. The rifling is strong and sharp,but the bore has a frosted look. It shoots just fine though.

 The second thing to do is to slug the bore. First,do NOT use a cleaning rod,especially the steel cleaning rod. Get a 1/4" wooden dowel and use that. Get yourself a piece of 00 unplated lead buckshot and a good micrometer or set of calipers as well as a length of 5/16" dowel a few inches long as well as a small block of wood,like a 6" section of a 2x4. Take the piece of buckshot and start it down the front of the bore using the 5/16" dowel. I find that the 5/16" works better to start it than the 1/4 because its stiffer,but don't insert it more than 1/4" or so or you wont be able to get it out. You just want to use it to get the buck shot fully in the bore. Now take the  1/4" dowel and use it to drive the buck shot through the bore. If you need to tap it through,use the block of wood,not a metal hammer. Its nice soft pine. Once the buckshot falls out the other end,you will see the rifling engraved into it. Measure across the high spots,and that's your bore diameter. Mine range from 311-312. That is typical. Some are smaller,some are larger. Finnish ones are often 308.

 Now measure the ammo your shooting. An example of the issues with bore diameter is that many reloading manuals specify .308 bullets for 7.62x54R. (perhaps because it will work in the Finnish one without creating too much pressure) Some commercial ammo may be like this as well,but I don't really know because Ive gone to hand loads.  I use 303 caliber bullets for mine. I know that some companies (Hornady for instance) makes a 7.62 caliber bullet,but those are .310. 303 comes out to .311 (there are some available in .312 too).

Offline matthew_h

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 08:59:58 PM »
wow thats a big list of stuff i need , is their one product that will help a lot ?  i need a cleaning rod and accessories as well . not really sure what to get as far as rods go .

Offline 30-30man

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 04:22:16 PM »
You don't need to buy all that expensive stuff. You can get it cleaner than all that stuff for about $3 worth of stuff that you probably have around the house.  I treated all my Mosins with this procedure. It saved me lots of time scrubbing.  You won't believe the stuff this will remove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S32C4SJ-NrQ

Offline anweis

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2010, 05:39:50 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S32C4SJ-NrQ

Your bore is fine. Clean with the electric cleaner and polish the muzzle with the round head bolt. Caution though, round head bolts often have lettering in them, you will need to file and polish those off. Keep the bolt and drill in line with the barrel.

Offline mrussel

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 08:45:02 PM »
wow thats a big list of stuff i need , is their one product that will help a lot ?  i need a cleaning rod and accessories as well . not really sure what to get as far as rods go .

 I don't think you need that list. Thats what I use,because I tried different things until I found things that work. I would suggest of course Hoppes #9,and most importantly something to cut copper. Just alternate. If you hit a wall,and then look for something else. That was basically what was available to me locally. Some people use household ammonia for copper,it takes longer,but works. There are tons of things that people use,and we all think our list is the "only way" but really,that usually what was available to us at the time.

 As for cleaning,plastic coated rods or graphite rods are the way to go. Dont use the one that comes with the rifle. (Im making a graphite one to replace mine actually,and an adapter to put a standard brass jag on it.) I prefer the graphite but its more expensive than the plastic coated steel ones. The multipiece ones in the kits from Walmart are really not that much of a bargain because they break easily and the jags are plastic and wear out fast as well. You need a 30 caliber jag,a cleaning rod,a nylon bore brush (the brass or bronze ones will be eaten away by the copper solvents) and a big bag of patches (THESE,I get from Walmart).

Offline 1911crazy

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2010, 04:25:28 AM »
The bore looks great in the pic's.  I would do as suggested in the posts above.  Clean it good and take her out and benchrest it with some surplus ammo.  Put some moly or gun grease on the trigger sear were the bottom of the bolt and sear mate.  This will lessen the trigger let off a tad plus make it smoother so you won't "jerk" the trigger.  Calm down and take your time when you shoot her don't rush your shots. If it does better at 40 or 50yds then go out to 100yds.

If it still doesn't shoot tighter groups then recrown it.

Offline matthew_h

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2010, 05:56:31 AM »
yeah i think i am blaming the gun for my shooting trouble  ::). I had never owned a center fire before , or even shot one so i was a bit nervous at first . maybe thats why when i tried it kneeling , i had relaxed .

Offline Mikey

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 10:23:37 AM »
matthew:  first, clean it up.  Your bore looks good and I don't see that loaded cartridge dropping to the case shoulder down the bore so it would seem pretty good right up to the muzzle.  Lots of old mil-surps are shot out at the muzzle end and it doesn't seem to affect their accuracy any, so I would advise not going crazy on the cleaning. 

I would always start with Hoppe's #9 - just about the best stuff around and has done the job for a long time.  Then, after cleaning and drying the bore, soak the bore with Windex with Ammonia and let it sit for a few minutes and then brush out the crud.  Repeat that step a few more times until you're happy with what you see. 

Cleaning equipment:  just a plain jane cleaning kit will do.  30 caliber and larger.  Get a big box full of patches, any 30 caliber will do.  Lots of folk advise against steel cleaning rods ass they can ding the muzzle but if steel is all you have then one wrap of electrician's tape at the end of the rod will take care of that for you.  Bore brushes - nylon or brass will do, you don't have to go crazy. 

Shooting:  first, get to know your action and how it handles.  Learn trigger control and proper breathing (like don't hold your breath for any more than 3 seconds before you pull the trigger) and when the trigger breaks it should be a surprise to you as you should gently squeeze the trigger until it breaks - if you are flinching because of the recoil or perceived recoil, then wear heavy clothing or wrap a towel around your shoulder. The 7.62x54R round is nobody's wuzzi and in centerfire bolt guns almost all the recoil is directed rearward and this is a 30-06 class round - you picked a big boy for your first centerfire.

Understand how to use the sights:  rest the rifle on a steady support, take the bolt out and look down the barrel at a target; when the target is centered in the bore look at your sights and then should be right on the target - they could be off, or high.  I don't think your post indicated where the bullets may have hit.  But when you shoot it next you will know where your sights are and you should then be better able to track your point of impact.

How large was your target, 8x11??  Use a smaller target but a larger backing so you can see where the bullets impact.  Have a friend shoot with you to see if you both get the same results.  And, above all else, good luck and let us know how it goes.

Offline KY Nabob

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2010, 05:43:17 PM »
The 91/30 has sights you can trust.  Check the front sight index mark to make sure it is centered and trust the settings on the rear sight.

After you clean it up buy a slip on recoil pad and some ear plugs.  Those two things will help accuracy more than anything you can do.

The trigger pull on mosins is usually horrid.  That does not help.

Offline mrussel

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2010, 07:46:16 PM »


Cleaning equipment:  just a plain jane cleaning kit will do.  30 caliber and larger.  Get a big box full of patches, any 30 caliber will do.  Lots of folk advise against steel cleaning rods ass they can ding the muzzle but if steel is all you have then one wrap of electrician's tape at the end of the rod will take care of that for you.  Bore brushes - nylon or brass will do, you don't have to go crazy. 



 There is also a little cap that should have come with your cleaning kit. If you DO use the steel rod (which I still recommend against) you should make sure the little cap is on the rod. The cap goes over the muzzle and keeps the rod from hitting the bore. (apparently Russian peasant conscripts never used it)

 One thought comes to mind is to buy a 36" length of heat shrink tubing. Slip it over the steel rod,and shrink it in place. You should now have a plastic coated cleaning rod. In fact,that sounds like such a great idea,I think I will try it. It costs a few dollars from most decently stocked electronics stores. You can get it from harbor freight too,but I don't know if they sell it in pieces that are long enough.

Offline matthew_h

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2010, 09:32:18 AM »
recoil is not a problem i am a big guy (6-7)and this gun is tame compared to a 12 gauge slug gun .recoil has never really bothered me much .  thanks for all the good info i use windex with ammonia to clean my muzzle loaders never thought to try it on my mosin . will let you know how the clean up goes once i get a rod and supplies .

edit : forgot to mention that i do not have any of the accessories that usually  come with the rifle . i would like to get a sling and the tool kit but i don't have cash for it right now . when i do have cash i will find a place and order the accessory kit and a good cleaning rod and supplies .

what is a good web sight to get that stuff from ?

Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2010, 06:40:37 PM »
Bear in mind that it can take multiple sessions to get the copper fouling out . I usually use windex w/ammonia at the range while the barrels warm. After a quick down and dirty range cleaning, I use hoppe's #9. Most of the time that is all I use, it IS formulated for corrosive ammo. +1 on the steel cleaning rods. Keep 'em with the rifle. Use a synthetic rod, aluminum or other non ferrous metal like brass. As this is your first Mosin, the front sight should sit centered in the rear sight and the top of the front sight even with the top of the rear sight. Also, the 91/30 was designed to be shot with the bayonet fixed.Not having the bayonet deployed may or may not affect the point of impact, the round may hit to the right or left. Not all Mosins are affected. Some shoot very well without the bayonet. Also about copper fouling, if you plan on getting real aggressive with it be sure to use nylon bristled brushes. Have fun!

Offline 84Jim

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2010, 06:45:54 AM »
Another thing that you might want to try is checking the tightness of the action screws.  A good rule of thumb is to make the front screw tight, and the back one snug.

Jim

Offline Mikey

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2010, 02:51:27 AM »
Pat/Rick, 84Jim:  thanks guys, you pointed out a few things I had forgotten about.  You are correct about the multiple session copper removal, it will take a couple of tries but the amount of crud you see in the barrel after the windex treatment is amazing.

84Jim:  one other aspect to look at is whether the barrel rides square in the barrel channel.  I have seen some Mosin stocks fit so poorly that the barrel rode flush against one side of the barrel channel on rifles that have been restocked. 

Matthew:  if the action and barrel do not sit squarely in the stock you may need to bed the action to get it all to fit properly so there is no untoward pressure on the barrel - when barrels get hot and expand (ever so slightly) if the barrel presses against the stock it will only throw your point of impact off as the barrel gets warmer.  Good luck with this.  The Mosin is a rock solid rifle and cartridge combination - when you get one that shoots good it is a real keeper.  Let us know how this project goes.....

Offline matthew_h

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Re: first mosin nagant , bore is badly worn at muzzle
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2010, 02:14:24 PM »
a bit of an update . i got it cleaned up using what i had (breakfree CLP) and carefully used a mosin cleaning kit and a crown protector .it looks better , accutally i think it looks great for a gun of this age  ;D.heck i have seen  much newer guns with worse bores .  very sharp rifling . its bright too . its not counter bored either .

the metal finish is a bit of a mystery though ,it looks parkerzied to me not blued as they normally are . has pitted finish but has it were it counts and will make a fine shooter and will probably see some hunting time too if i ever get up to the rifle zone . although i could coyote hunt with it .

what weight of projectile are these typically sighted for ? i think i was shooting hight and thats why i couldn't keep it on paper at 40 yards .

thanks for your help guys . now i just need to find a mosin nagant carbine , and a nagant revolver and .... ::)