Single Action or Semi-Auto?

[mrussel]

Single action offer safety whe riding a hores somewhat like a folding knife .

An empty chamber is an empty chamber.
If you ride with an empty chamber under the hammer of a single action or double action revolver or carry the auto in condition 3 to the same effect.
But most Doule action revolvers (modern ones) and the double action autos have a disconnect from the hammer and need to have the trigger pulled for the gun to go off.

and taking a spill in brush or running thru. it in a wild azz fashion or a tangle with other equipment could cause a trigger to get pulled . A single action even a Ruger with 6 in would be safer . Remember a double action places another round in line when trigger is pulled . Keep in mind also the 1911 has all the safties because it was for calvery use  ;

 There you go then. Once again,another reason to carry a 1911! =) As for trigger safeties,if plastic guns with trigger safeties were a good idea,JMB would have made the 1911 with a trigger safety and a plastic frame. 

[SHOOTALL]

 

[williamlayton]

 
Blessings

[StrawHat]

Good arguement here Shootall.
The first were as you argue---however---if the concept was flawed why do the still make them? I will stand by my original thought---the DA was the beginning of the end for the SA in terms of being more desirable and quicker.
Blessings

I misunderstood your origianl post, I thopught you meant the Lightning in particular not DA revovlers in general.  And I almost agree with you.  I feel it wasn't until the DA in large bore was perfected (S&W) that the SA started to fall off in popularity.  My daily carry is a 4" DA revolver in 45 ACP so you can tell what I prefer.

[NickSS]

Personally I like them all (autos, DA and SA revolvers and throw in a couple of single shots.  I do not even stop at cartridge breach loaders as I like a good C&B revolver as well.  As for what I would pick for a fight it would be a good 12 ga shotgun stoked with 00 buckshot if it was close quarters or a good rifle if further away.  As for a carry gun in case someone causes me problems I would pick them in this order only because very few people will practice enough to do otherwise.  DA revolver (could be DA/SA or DA only). DA semi auto (could be DA/SA or DAO).  SA Semi auto, SA revolver ( could be a cartridge or C&B one as there is no real practical difference between them except loading speed) and last but not least single and double shot pistols (also could be cartridge or percussion lock)

I realise that everyone has there favorites but I think we can all agree that a DA revolver takes a whole lot less practice and training to use than say a 1911 Colt.  Me personally I carry either a DA revolver or a DA semi auto.  In an emergency either will work by just pulling the trigger there is nothing to remember to do Like cock a hammer or turn off the safety etc.  Just point and shoot.  Anything else leaves room for human error under pressure just when you do not need any.

[williamlayton]

Nick
What is five minutes difference in terms of training?
Old wives tale.
I carry a nunmber of different format and have no problems.
Blessings

[LocnLod]

I think it takes longer than 5 minutes to train yourself to do something subconsciously.  The KISS principle also applies well to carrying a firearm for personal protection.  The easier it is for you to do something complex when 10X the normal amount of adrenaline has just been dumped into your body the more likely you are to come out OK.  Of course, there are some individuals, the proverbial 'cool cucumbers', that can pretty much handle anything at anytime but I don't think that applies to most folks that carry a piece. 

Anyway, back to single action revolvers.  There was a gentlemen locally that open carried a single action, I guess he liked making an impact on people.  Anyway, he's in a grocery store when some thug comes in and starts shooting.  Gentlemen starts shooting it out with the bad guy and ultimately wins after hitting the bad guy twice and the bad guy runs out of bullets.  In the process he smacked his single action on the floor when he dropped for cover and an internal spring broke.  He had to fan the gun for the last couple of shots - not sure about this part, but a spring did break and he had to modify his shooting style.  I don't believe that he reloaded. 

Still, I wouldn't carry a single action revolver for protection unless I didn't have any other choice. 

[SHOOTALL]

I have heard in training classes that 800 or more repetitions are needed to make an action second nature. I believe it might be true.

No one has pointed out yet that the da gun be it revolver or self loader is a pull and shoot gun . a Single action auto loader has a safety . They claim its easier to train for safety with a DAO gun. But is it ? or just easier not safer ? The 1911 has 2 safties that must be over ridden to fire thumb and grip. If you ever get in a tight situation bet your finger will be close if not on the trigger . When you face death there ain't no such thing as cheating .  is it not safer in such a situation to have that thumb safety ? I remember a couple stressful times when my thumb was on the safety ready to wipe it off as the trigger was pulled . Note there was a definate block not a long pull that a jerk could over come and a trigger pull still 2 actions . I feel it safer

[LocnLod]

Shootall, for guns with light trigger I agree with you that a manual safety is desirable.  But it is easier to train someone who is new to guns on a DAO design with no safeties to remember when to take off and when to put on.  Usually they have a heavier trigger pull - or at least a longer trigger pull - than a single action auto, so your brain is more able to judge that your finger is applying pressure.  They are trained finger off the trigger until they're ready to shoot.  In general I think that's one reason why so many law enforcement agencies don't issue single action semi autos - and why SOP for the military was loaded magazine, empty chamber.  I have seen some uniformed officers in states like Texas with 1911s of some flavor though.
If the argument for a single action auto is that it's safer for when you put your finger on the trigger when you shouldn't have done so, I'm not sure if that's a good argument.  It's a valid one from the safety standpoint but you know what I mean...

[bilmac]

If you have your finger on a trigger and you are using other parts of your body like your left arm, it is a kind of involuntary response to clench your gun hand. People have been accidentally killed that way.

[SHOOTALL]

I agree with both of ya'll but in the real world .... The DOA was much harder for me to shoot small groups with until i found the hybrid - the LDA has a safty and is very light DA.

[LocnLod]

For sure unless you are a one in a million shooter, the single action trigger is easier to shoot small groups with than a DAO trigger or a trigger like a Glock, M&P or XD has.  But realistically, some practice and dry firing and you should be more than capable of making combat accurate hits with the harder system.  I have found that a Glock trigger is much more forgiving of me 'snatching' it than a 1911 trigger it due to the extra travel.  Shooting slow, deliberate, unstressed groups yes the 1911 wins for sure.

[S.S.]

Be proficient with all is my thinking.
The only reason I carry a semi-auto now is
weight. It has nothing to do with how it functions.

[mrussel]

I have heard in training classes that 800 or more repetitions are needed to make an action second nature. I believe it might be true.

No one has pointed out yet that the da gun be it revolver or self loader is a pull and shoot gun . a Single action auto loader has a safety . They claim its easier to train for safety with a DAO gun. But is it ? or just easier not safer ? The 1911 has 2 safties that must be over ridden to fire thumb and grip. If you ever get in a tight situation bet your finger will be close if not on the trigger . When you face death there ain't no such thing as cheating .  is it not safer in such a situation to have that thumb safety ? I remember a couple stressful times when my thumb was on the safety ready to wipe it off as the trigger was pulled . Note there was a definate block not a long pull that a jerk could over come and a trigger pull still 2 actions . I feel it safer

 I doubt that I would have my finger on the trigger. Its just second nature to NOT have that on the trigger. Even if Im not thinking about it,when I grab a gun,my finger is not on the trigger but beside it. While I do have ot say,Ive thankfully not been in the situation to find out,I think that the MORE stressful the situation,the more likely my brain is going to turn off and the only things that will happen are those things that Ive practice to the point they are reflex. I would worry more about forgetting to take the safety off than accidentally having my finger on the trigger. (For the record,I carry a 1911 or a Browning Hi Power) I do really like the grip safety on the 1911. Im a little paranoid on my 1911 of the safety coming off,since when I got it I found the extended ambidextrous safety could get knocked into the off position. It only happened easily with one particular kind of holster,but once I noticed it I played around with it and found that there were other situations,somewhat contrived and perhaps difficult to get to happen,but possible,that could cause it. I ended up going to a GI style safety and that solved the problem (Once again,JMB knew exactly what he was doing when he designed it that way) The grip safety though gave and gives me an extra level of comfort. I know that if somehow the safety came off,and the trigger snagged on a branch or something,that it would not go off.

[SHOOTALL]

when you hear a bump in the dark its one thing when you see the bad guy up close its a different story . At that point i would guess most will give themselves every advantage .
When you shoot start every string by wiping off the safety . Do it every time and you won't need to worry about it .

[mrussel]

when you hear a bump in the dark its one thing when you see the bad guy up close its a different story . At that point i would guess most will give themselves every advantage .
When you shoot start every string by wiping off the safety . Do it every time and you won't need to worry about it .

 I suspect that under extreme stress,and of course the time constraints of having to react in a matter of seconds,or fractions of seconds,Im not going to remember to give my self any extra advantage. Unless its something Ive practiced and practiced until Ive built up muscle memory, and do it automatically,Its a good bet I'm just not going to do it. Since I have shot by keeping my finger next the trigger until I actually fire,then keeping my finger on the trigger for every shot until I'm ready to stop firing,I think that's what I would end up doing.

 Im pretty much betting on the fact that,should I be faced with having to use a gun in self defense,the only thing that Im going to be able to "think" about is,"I have to shoot" and the better come automatically or I'm pretty much done for. I guess with enough practice even that could be automatic,but I suspect that could be a very dangerous thing,leading to situation where you identify the threat,without thinking draw your weapon flip off the safety,and put three shots center of mass,only to realize that at best you just shot your girl friends cat (don't get me wrong,I like cats,in fact I own a cat and am rarely tempted to shoot him),at worst you just shot HER getting up to get a drink of water. It just doesn't seem like something I would want to get so hardwired into me that I could just "switch off" and let it happen without thinking.

[Bart Solo]

Single action or semi-auto?  I like both, but I shoot SA all the time.  Because I shoot the SA so often I would imagine that under stress my muscle memory would allow me to shoot the single action with more accuracy faster than a semi-auto.  If I spent as much time shooting a semi-auto I would imagine the semi-auto would be my choice.

My belief is that if you are going to own a gun you owe it to yourself, your spouse, your children and the rest of us to practice shooting it on a regular basis.  I don't want to be around anybody holding a gun who only shoots his handgun on alternate blue moons, if ever.

I do know one thing, if at all humanly possible I prefer not to be in the position where I have to settle a problem with a weapon.  If I find myself in a situation where I need a firearm for personal protection I have either made a serious mistake or trouble has come to me.  If trouble has come to me, I prefer a shotgun. 

[SHOOTALL]

For sure unless you are a one in a million shooter, the single action trigger is easier to shoot small groups with than a DAO trigger or a trigger like a Glock, M&P or XD has.  But realistically, some practice and dry firing and you should be more than capable of making combat accurate hits with the harder system.  I have found that a Glock trigger is much more forgiving of me 'snatching' it than a 1911 trigger it due to the extra travel.  Shooting slow, deliberate, unstressed groups yes the 1911 wins for sure.

Why put your finger on the trigger until you at least clear leather and are on target ? I draw in a controled fashion not snatch the gun like grabing the last slice of pie at a family reunion .

[SHOOTALL]

If we keep making a gun more safe in an effort to reduce learning safety soon our guns won't shoot at all.

[LocnLod]

Snatching the trigger is the same thing as jerking the trigger, I wasn't talking about snatching the gun out of the holster.  And I agree with you it's like all the safety things they're putting on cars so you don't even need to bother checking your mirrors or looking behind you.  When that backup monitor fails and you run over your neighbor's kid, time to sue the car manufacturer!  My defense guns don't have manual safeties.

[jimster]

If we keep making a gun more safe in an effort to reduce learning safety soon our guns won't shoot at all.

Agreed. The main safety is between our ears anyway.

If you have your finger on a trigger and you are using other parts of your body like your left arm, it is a kind of involuntary response to clench your gun hand. People have been accidentally killed that way.

If you have your finger on the trigger of a 1911 it will go off. If it goes off and something gets shot they did not want to shoot, they broke another big rule, they had it pointing at something they did not intend to shoot. No matter how many safeties are on a gun, your booger picker on the trigger is the only thing that makes it shoot. The bullet can only go where you pointed it. I can't really think of anything else I need to know, what makes it shoot, and where will it go if it shoots.  

Hey shootall, if they did manage to put enough safeties on guns to make them idiot proof, they would be too heavy to carry.  

[mrussel]

If we keep making a gun more safe in an effort to reduce learning safety soon our guns won't shoot at all.

Agreed. The main safety is between our ears anyway.

If you have your finger on a trigger and you are using other parts of your body like your left arm, it is a kind of involuntary response to clench your gun hand. People have been accidentally killed that way.

If you have your finger on the trigger of a 1911 it will go off. If it goes off and something gets shot they did not want to shoot, they broke another big rule, they had it pointing at something they did not intend to shoot. No matter how many safeties are on a gun, your booger picker on the trigger is the only thing that makes it shoot. The bullet can only go where you pointed it. I can't really think of anything else I need to know, what makes it shoot, and where will it go if it shoots.  

Hey shootall, if they did manage to put enough safeties on guns to make them idiot proof, they would be too heavy to carry.  

 While I agree that you dont want to overdo it,that shouldn't be an excuse for not improving things where you can. I certainly do like the grip safety on my 1911. I'm a little paranoid about making sure the safety is on and stays on (even more so becuase the extended safety on my 1911 would catch on certain holsters under rare and somewhat contrived conditions (still,as I said,I'm a little paranoid about that) and come off until I went to a GI style safety. (My Browning Hi Power never did that,and I still wonder why I got rid of it) The first time it happened I thought it was my fault and felt like a total idiot. The second time I got out of the car,I realized what was going on because I REMEMBERED putting it back on. Still,there was another safety between an me and an accidental discharge. I of course wouldn't want to count on that,but still,its comforting to know. (That holster is in the trash as well)

 Still,you dont want so many safetys that you cant actually shoot it when you need too. Trigger locks are in this category usually. There ARE times when they are appropriate,but usually its better just to lock it up in a safe or cabinet. Some ideas are better than others. The grip safety on the 1911 and the trigger safety on the Glock are pretty good ideas. Ive NEVER had a 1911 fail to fire becuase the grip safety was not properly engaged and Ive never heard of a a Glock failing to fire becuase someone improperly activated the trigger safety. (I'm a little concerned about the trigger safetys on some other guns though,becuase they are actually hinged and the end of the trigger and I worry about them breaking off,but Ive never heard of them doing it)

[slim rem 7]

sa revolver is not my choice as a self defence handgun..i will have to add though that
my first rnd fired in practice is most time the most accurate... i do prefer thumb cocking as its the most accurate way of hitting my point of aim..
but if lead is flying .. i want to mess up his concentration,so id probably go with da..
 this of course while im digging for some sort of cover .slim
 may we all find after all our practice ,,that we never needed to use it ..
 

[sixgun_symphony]

 One had better get in alot of practice with a single action revolver as one will have to make their 5 to 6 shots count in a gunfight.

 I know some fellows that can do it, they normally shoot 400rds a week at the local range and they are very, very good with their weapons.

[SHOOTALL]

We all have a favorite but when we are faced with a fight its our will to fight that will make us survive more than the weapon .

[Spirithawk]

It doesn't make sense to me to blame any gun for unsafe handling. Know your firearm. Never draw with your finger going directly into the trigger guard untill ready to fire, unless you enjoy shooting yourself in the leg. I like my Kel Tecs, basicly  double actions, no safety to fuss with and won't go off unless the trigger is pulled, and I don't feel like I'm carrying a lead brick around. A good holster keeps anything from catching the trigger. I like the fact that I don't have to think about, nor take that split second, clicking the safety off to fire. As for running through brush and getting an acidental trigger pull, if you are dumb enough to run through brush with a pistol in your hand you deserve what you get and need to be removed from the gene pool. If in a holster, you need a better holster!

[SHOOTALL]

Run thru. brush with gun hum . You get what you deserve well. I won't mention getting shot at  or chasing down wounded game 

[Spirithawk]

Run thru. brush with gun hum . You get what you deserve well. I won't mention getting shot at  or chasing down wounded game 

Personaly, I've never ran to track down wounded game. Don't know any hunters who have.  All you'll do is push it and likely lose it. Better to wait for it to lay down and expire and track it slow. If I'm getting shot at I'll stand my ground, or manuever for a better shot,  and shoot back and I'm a very very good shot!

[45-70.gov]

Single Action or Semi-Auto?

single action
44  0r  357  magnum

one  single powerful projectile through the middle

follow  up shots??
double  taps?............why

seems  like  folks are wasting  range time  not staying focused on perforating vitals

i  carry a  five shooter,,......357DAO...and  no spare ammo  right  now
my  alternative carry guns  are  629 smith 44 mags...or 7 shooter 357 smith 619

[SHOOTALL]

Run thru. brush with gun hum . You get what you deserve well. I won't mention getting shot at  or chasing down wounded game 

Personaly, I've never ran to track down wounded game. Don't know any hunters who have.  All you'll do is push it and likely lose it. Better to wait for it to lay down and expire and track it slow. If I'm getting shot at I'll stand my ground, or manuever for a better shot,  and shoot back and I'm a very very good shot!

If its close and posted land is near you do what you have to .