Single Action or Semi-Auto?

[mrussel]

It doesn't make sense to me to blame any gun for unsafe handling. Know your firearm. Never draw with your finger going directly into the trigger guard untill ready to fire, unless you enjoy shooting yourself in the leg. I like my Kel Tecs, basicly  double actions, no safety to fuss with and won't go off unless the trigger is pulled, and I don't feel like I'm carrying a lead brick around. A good holster keeps anything from catching the trigger. I like the fact that I don't have to think about, nor take that split second, clicking the safety off to fire. As for running through brush and getting an acidental trigger pull, if you are dumb enough to run through brush with a pistol in your hand you deserve what you get and need to be removed from the gene pool. If in a holster, you need a better holster!

 I agree with what your saying in its spirit,but not in its details. I fully agree with the sentiments about a good holster though. I disagree with your statement about "taking a spit second clicking the safety off" Thats something thats going to happen AS the gun is being aimed at the target. It honestly just seems like the kind of stuff people say who dont LIKE guns with safetys and want to find some reason to justify it. There are plenty of reasons NOT to want one but that's not one of them. Really it comes down to training. People suggest that in a crisis you might forget to take the safety off. Thats a good point and if you haven't trained yourself to do it without thinking,then yes,that's a very good point. Its one of the reasons why double action revolvers still have a place in self defense. (The other is reliability,but even thats a small one. If it were a BIG deal,there would not be such an argument about whether a revolver or semi auto was the best choice) I think it really comes down to training and maintenance. For instance,do you really trust that magazine spring that has been sitting there in the closet for 10 years with a full magazine? Do you trust the recoil spring after you have fired 2000 shots through the gun? The solution of course is to maintain your weapon. Still,if someone broke in and there was a revolver and a 1911 that had been sitting in the closet,loaded and "ready" since 1990,Id reach for the revolver. On the other hand,when I put on my gun to go around town,its a 1911.

 As for running through brush,with a pistol in your hand (I agree,if its in a holster,this should not be an issue with most any gun) I agree with the sentiments about being shot it. I can imagine there might be a situation where you pull your pistol deciding the best option is to fight,but things dont develop as you planned and you decide your best option is now to get the heck out of there or try to get a better position and that brush is the best place to go. Maybe the other options are down the trail toward your attackers,up a steep mountain side, strait back behind you for 100 yards being completely exposed,or down the mountainside through brush and trees. I imagine your not going to wait to holster your gun before you move. Before someone pipes up about how they wouldn't run,imagine the guy you were in a gun fight with (maybe you even shot him) has three armed buddies come around the corner (maybe they heard the gun shots) to his aid. Its all speculation and what ifs,but I dont think its fair to say "You should never have to do that" as you dont know what could be the circumstances that might make you want to do that. I would not be too worried about a tree limb catching on the trigger on that case though. Its possible,but unlikely. You cant live your life worrying about every tiny chance of something bad happening. You tackle the big risks and then go about your life.

[mrussel]

For sure unless you are a one in a million shooter, the single action trigger is easier to shoot small groups with than a DAO trigger or a trigger like a Glock, M&P or XD has.  But realistically, some practice and dry firing and you should be more than capable of making combat accurate hits with the harder system.  I have found that a Glock trigger is much more forgiving of me 'snatching' it than a 1911 trigger it due to the extra travel.  Shooting slow, deliberate, unstressed groups yes the 1911 wins for sure.

Why put your finger on the trigger until you at least clear leather and are on target ? I draw in a controled fashion not snatch the gun like grabing the last slice of pie at a family reunion .

 Someone told me (and I have no reason to doubt him as its plausible,but also have no information on his credibility) that one of the most common "stupid Glock" accidents is to put your finger in the trigger as you pull it out of the holster and shoot yourself in the leg. Dont get me wrong,I dont mean to say that the Glock is unsafe and your going to shoot yourself in the leg. Simply that,if you want to have a stupid accident where you shoot yourself with a Glock,that's a good  way to do it. If you want to have a stupid accident where you shoot yourself with a 1911,your best bet is to probably to sit down in a chair, take the magazine out,then flip the safety off and pull the trigger while having it pointed at your foot,not realizing that its both pointed at your foot and that there was a live round in the chamber you forgot to clear when you took the magazine out.

[Spirithawk]

It's not that I don't like safeties it's simply like this. Say I always keep two loaded handguns by my bed. The one has a safety and the other is double action semi auto. In a hurry guess which one I'd grab first. Yes you can practice taking off the safety as you draw or aim but in a hairy situation it's easy to make a mistake. The kind you never ever get the chance to repeat. I just like knowing it's one less thing to worry about. As to running through brush with a gun in your hand, yep in an extreme situation that could happen but moving through the brush cautiously will get you farther faster and safer most every time. Plus the noise you make running just advertises where you're at and running blindly into briars and trees don't get you very far very fast. Neither tend to move worth a darn and they hurt like heck when you run into them.   You could easily do to yourself what your trying to keep the bad guy, or guys, from doing to you.  Mechanical safeties have their place. I wouldn't own a hunting, or target fiream without one. I just don't care for them on self defense weapons. I much prefer the double action with the hammer block safety. When I draw from a holster I always keep my trigger finger stiff along side the holster. When the weapon clears it's alongside the trigger yet not inside the trigger guard. Simply bending my finger as I come on target, if intending to fire, puts it where it needs to be. It's a good habit with any handgun regardless of type of safety. All in all it's really what you feel most comfortable with that works best for you when it hits the fan. I'll tell you all truly. I'd much rather discuss the finer points of firearms with you guys than pollitics with the guys in the pot bellied stove forum. We may not always agree but a lot of good info is shared. So many thanks to each of you. 

[45-70.gov]

after  its  all  over...........

will  you remember to re-engage the safety?
or  is an  accident  waiting to happen?

[SHOOTALL]

If you learn the manual of arms for the weapon and follow it each and every time you fire/handle it then you will. If you go to the gun shop buy what ever the sales counter comando says buy and never pratice then who knows .
 What I get from all this is the plastic autos with DA hard to pull triggers is an effort to arm stupid people that are to lazy to learn or pratice .

[Spirithawk]

If you learn the manual of arms for the weapon and follow it each and every time you fire/handle it then you will. If you go to the gun shop buy what ever the sales counter comando says buy and never pratice then who knows .
 What I get from all this is the plastic autos with DA hard to pull triggers is an effort to arm stupid people that are to lazy to learn or pratice .

Being stupid or too lazy to practice is far from limited to those who own plastic guns. The type you buy is a matter of personal choice and one should not down another simply because he doesn't choose the same.

[SHOOTALL]

I was following the thread . I agree stupidity knows no bounds . Anyone can have a AD but thinking that a safety or heavy trigger is the cure is bad planning . Muzzle control is the ansewer. Safties work best when the hand is not on the gun 

[mrussel]

If you learn the manual of arms for the weapon and follow it each and every time you fire/handle it then you will. If you go to the gun shop buy what ever the sales counter comando says buy and never pratice then who knows .
 What I get from all this is the plastic autos with DA hard to pull triggers is an effort to arm stupid people that are to lazy to learn or pratice .

I disagree that its an effort to arm stupid people (by that logic,maybe those double action autos should be banned. After all,no one wants "stupid people" to wandering around armed,right?). There are different people that can put in different amounts of practice. Its good to have guns marketed to different kinds of people. Its best to put in the practice,but plenty of lives have been saved by someones gun that they bought and stuck on a shelf and never thought about until that time they heard someone crashing through the front door. Yes,it would be better for them to practice regularly,but are you really going to tell that person that they shouldn't have that gun on the shelf. The basics of gun safety dont take much time to master. So long as they do that,how much they practice is up to them.

[Spirithawk]

There's something I've been told since I can remember. Know who the most dangerous person with a gun is? The one most likely to shoot, AND HIT, you? A woman who's never shot a gun before or at least not much. Why? Because they just point like pointing their finger and pull the trigger. They never learned to get technical, pure instinct. Not saying that's a good thing but it still is a fact. Practice can be valuable no doubt, but differant people learn at differant rates and, as said, some are able to practice more than others.

[SHOOTALL]

If you learn the manual of arms for the weapon and follow it each and every time you fire/handle it then you will. If you go to the gun shop buy what ever the sales counter comando says buy and never pratice then who knows .
 What I get from all this is the plastic autos with DA hard to pull triggers is an effort to arm stupid people that are to lazy to learn or pratice .

I disagree that its an effort to arm stupid people (by that logic,maybe those double action autos should be banned. After all,no one wants "stupid people" to wandering around armed,right?). There are different people that can put in different amounts of practice. Its good to have guns marketed to different kinds of people. Its best to put in the practice,but plenty of lives have been saved by someones gun that they bought and stuck on a shelf and never thought about until that time they heard someone crashing through the front door. Yes,it would be better for them to practice regularly,but are you really going to tell that person that they shouldn't have that gun on the shelf. The basics of gun safety dont take much time to master. So long as they do that,how much they practice is up to them.

Go back and read what most have written , that is what they are saying . No safety to deal with -no easy light trigger to deal with etc. No that's not why they are made but to read about them it sure sounds like peoplr believe then idoit proof.

[Spirithawk]

As long as idiots exist nothing will ever be idiot proof. Safeties will never change that. That aside, it has been proven time and again in some very rigorous tests, military and private, that the only way a Kel Tec will fire is by pulling the trigger. Keeping your finger off the trigger untill ready to fire is basic gun safety 101. Fail to do that and Ron White's quote jumps into play, " You can't fix stupid!" I don't care what kind of safety that any weapon has. It's only as safe as the person holding it.

[SHOOTALL]

As long as idiots exist nothing will ever be idiot proof. Safeties will never change that. That aside, it has been proven time and again in some very rigorous tests, military and private, that the only way a Kel Tec will fire is by pulling the trigger. Keeping your finger off the trigger untill ready to fire is basic gun safety 101. Fail to do that and Ron White's quote jumps into play, " You can't fix stupid!" I don't care what kind of safety that any weapon has. It's only as safe as the person holding it.

I disagree with that one in pratice . Many things can "pull" a trigger. I feel the holster for a gun with only a trigger safety is also part of the safety package. A gun with a trigger safety must have its trigger protected at all times other than when being fired.
 Someone could put the gun in a pocket and also drop in their keys . It would not be a long streach to see a key working its way across the triger and safety fireing the gun when the keys were pulled from the pocket or they shifted in the pocket.

[Spirithawk]

As long as idiots exist nothing will ever be idiot proof. Safeties will never change that. That aside, it has been proven time and again in some very rigorous tests, military and private, that the only way a Kel Tec will fire is by pulling the trigger. Keeping your finger off the trigger untill ready to fire is basic gun safety 101. Fail to do that and Ron White's quote jumps into play, " You can't fix stupid!" I don't care what kind of safety that any weapon has. It's only as safe as the person holding it.

I disagree with that one in pratice . Many things can "pull" a trigger. I feel the holster for a gun with only a trigger safety is also part of the safety package. A gun with a trigger safety must have its trigger protected at all times other than when being fired.
 Someone could put the gun in a pocket and also drop in their keys . It would not be a long streach to see a key working its way across the triger and safety fireing the gun when the keys were pulled from the pocket or they shifted in the pocket.

I agree a proper holster is a must but I feel that's the case with any weapon. As to stupid people, doing stupid things, like putting keys, or anything else, in the same pocket with a loaded firearm, blame the doofus that did so, not the firearm. If talking foolish people, doing foolish things, just how useful is a manual safety to the fool that neglects to put it on?

[SHOOTALL]

That's kinda my point first blame the type gun for the accident then praise other guns for fixing a problem that still exist . But be it far from me to cloud the issue with facts

[Spirithawk]

My point is simply that NO firearm is foolproof. No matter what type of saftey it's only as safe as the person using it and type of safety is personal choice same as choice of firearm. As such that choice should be respected not criticized.

[SHOOTALL]

Respecting ones choice is different than pointing out faults of a firearm . If one makes a choice then wants to stick their head in the sand and whistle that's their choice but if others are not told the good and bad they may make a choice based on bad info.

[Spirithawk]

Hammer block safeties have been around a very long time. The majority of double action revolvers have them. No differance in them or a handgun like a Kel Tec. So are all double actions, with hammer block safeties unsafe, of poor design, foolish to buy or the choice of someone stupid and lazy? Yes triggers can get accidentaly pulled, so can mechanical safeties accidentaly get switched off or forgotten to be engaged in the first place. Why not point out that as failures in design as well? Since pocket carry seems to be an issue, I'd much rather have a handgun with a hammer block safety in my pocket, knowing there is the possibility the trigger could get pulled if something engages it, than a loaded handgun with one in the chamber and the only safety, a mechanical one, accidently switched off. Two differant kinds of safeties, differant weapons, differant choices, differant responsabilities of the owner to keep the firearm safe. Saying that people who choose a weapon with a hammer block safety are stupid and lazy would be no diiferant than my saying people that buy weapons with mechanical safeties can't be trusted to handle a firearm safely, and thus can't be trusted with a double action, so therefore mechanical safeties are of poor design and promote stupidity and lazyness. If your object was just to point out the good and bad of one type safety then why not the other as well? Couldn't I just as fairly say that people who own firearms with mechanical safeties, and thus think they are fool proof, are sticking THEIR heads in the sand? Heck, take a look at the Remington model 700. Look just how safe their mechanical safety turned out to be! Yes, I made the statement that I like the fact that, when it hit's the fan, I can grab and fire without fumbling for a mechanical safety. Did I buy my Kel Tec for that reason? No, but yes I do see that as a benifit in a self defense situation and I bought my Kel Tec for self defense. I stand by that firmly.

[mrussel]

I think there is too much hyperbole flying around here. I very much doubt that I'm going to be fumbling for my safety like someone on a bad infomercial showing how the "other products" work. I also dont think that guns without them are either fool proof or made for people who are stupid and/or lazy. Furthermore,I would argue that having ANY gun,no matter what kind bouncing around in a pocket,perhaps with a  pen and a set of keys,is asking to get a nickname like "uniball" or "short rod". The KelTec most certainly will fire without a finger on the trigger. Anything that fits in that trigger that pulls it will shoot it. Guns with thumb safetys can also easily fire in that situation. Its perfectly possible,even likely that the safety could get knocked off and then,like the ones with the trigger safety,anything pulling the trigger will make it fire. I dont beleive that simply having a very heavy trigger pull is enough protection as something like a car key or pen is going to have enough lever effect to pull that trigger.

 Anyone who things either a thumb safety or a trigger safety or a heavy trigger pull (for instance double action revolver) makes it OK to toss a gun in their pocket is the problem,not the gun itself. There are different guns all with their strengths and weaknesses and target markets,but none of them should be shoved naked into a pocket or stuffed in a waste band. There are pocket holsters made just for that.

[45-70.gov]

If you learn the manual of arms for the weapon and follow it each and every time you fire/handle it then you will. If you go to the gun shop buy what ever the sales counter comando says buy and never pratice then who knows .
 What I get from all this is the plastic autos with DA hard to pull triggers is an effort to arm stupid people that are to lazy to learn or pratice .

i  think  98%  of the people  here  will get STUPID  in the heat of a gunfight

once the adrenaline  starts  to pump

myself  included....in  the STUPID.....so  don't cry  i called you a name
thats why  i carry  a DAO only revolver

[mrussel]

If you learn the manual of arms for the weapon and follow it each and every time you fire/handle it then you will. If you go to the gun shop buy what ever the sales counter comando says buy and never pratice then who knows .
 What I get from all this is the plastic autos with DA hard to pull triggers is an effort to arm stupid people that are to lazy to learn or pratice .

i  think  98%  of the people  here  will get STUPID  in the heat of a gunfight

once the adrenaline  starts  to pump

myself  included....in  the STUPID.....so  don't cry  i called you a name
thats why  i carry  a DAO only revolver

 I think you can overcome the stupidity by practicing until it becomes automatic,but thats a good point.

[Spirithawk]

I didn't say the trigger on a Kel Tec couldn't get pulled. I said that's the only way it would go off and a suitable holster, along with proper drawing of the weapon, solves that. When I mention someone fumbling for the safety on a weapon, I don't mean when you have time to pick up, or draw, your weapon when you hear a noise. I mean when the threat is there staring at you and you've only got a split second to react. When the slightest hesitation or fumble could get you killed. Call it getting stupid or just nervous but the result is the same. When fractions of a second count, the less you have to think about or perform, the better your chances of surviving the situation. I think it's personal choice which type of weapon, and safety, you choose. I just don't think your choice gives you the right to call those that choose differantly lazy nor stupid. I trust double actions over most mechanical safeties and have stated why. But if you choose the mechanical safety then good for you and I hope it works for you. Personaly, in over 37 years of handling firearms, and being around others handling firearms, I've seen mechanical safeties fail. I've yet to have a double action fire accidentaly. I feel safe with a double action and that's all that matters to me.

[SHOOTALL]

You will do what you pratice under stress , that has proven out many times . I have proven it to myself a couple times. So if you shoot a gun with a safety and every time you pratice you disengage it you will under pressure. If you don't ya might not know why your weapon isn't making loud noises .
 I don't think people get stupid , I think they get scared and will do what they trained to do. They are stupid if they never train .
 I tote a revolver not because it has no safety but because it works and fits my pocket 

[Spirithawk]

Bottom line, a person...at least a wise one, carries what works best for them and what they have the most faith in. Yes, practice and reparatition makes for natural reaction. Buttttt, things can and do go wrong, manual safeties can and do fail, sweaty or dirty fingers do slip. If something like that happens you could, and most likely, will pay with your life. The less that can go wrong the less that will go wrong! Nor does everyone have the oportunity to put in the kind of practice you are talking about and practice under safe ideal conditions just don't count. Your key word is STRESS! The ONLY way you can truly practice for that situation is with someone coming at you with a weapon, or shooting at you and with a mutitude of disturbing things going on around you, in rain, sleet or snow, with less than clean dry hands,  PERIOD! Even then the only way, and I mean the ONLY way, you'll know if you have presence of mind to flick that safety off is when you are faced with a situation where you have to.  I simply prefer not to worry about a potential problem that I can completely remove before hand. Call it lazy, call it stupid if you wish, I call it the smart thing to do!

 

[SHOOTALL]

Don't think DAO guns are trouble free , I had a Glock 23 that the factory had to rebuild / replace . Pratice is easy dry fire , most can do it if not all. Drawing can be done at home , drawing is very important to master . Pratice under any conditiond counts . No matter where you shoot - in a range setting , in combat or what ever getting a sight picture and trigger control will still need to be correct to hit the target. The more trigger time the better. I was an IDPA safety officer and it was amazing the number of people who could not reholster their weapon after shooting. The IWB holster closed up and they had not trained at home and didn't know it would do that . Mind set is a big part if not the biggest . You can think thru. what might happen . You can read what happened to others then decide what you will do. Then when and if you find yourself in a bad situation you have a plan of action.
 Stress is in different levels . Want stress bet with friends when you shoot , miss lose money . Want more shoot a match with folks watching . In a match you will find out what works in your equipment etc. You might pick up some moves that will save your life. Matches are not the only way but they offer some stress and feed back. Is a match the best way to get defensive training , nope but it is a good place to try what you think will work. You would learn which way to turn when an attacker is behind you so you can get your gun on the target fastest. Or if by chance you get the drop on an attacker which way is the most dangerous for you if he turns to face you. You say a wise man uses what works for them . I say to be wise you must know what works in the first place along with what your equipment will need to do by using the tools under conditions you may face. Even the guy who buys a police trade in revolver loads it and puts it in the night stand drawer can dry fire it and look down the bbl learning what the sights look like . Better than the first time he needs it is the first time he looks down the bbl .

[Spirithawk]

Nope, I totally agree. Nothing is perfect but some things are less likely to malfunction than others. I agree too, that practice does help. But I strongly believe that if you rely on that alone you are asking for seriouse trouble.  Yes, there are differant levels of stress. Betting money on a shooting match, at least where I'm concerned, comes nowhere near having a split second to make a decision and put it into action in the process of trying to save your life and I have personally been there more than just a few times. Where safeties are concerned it all comes down to a few things one must answer to him or herself. 1) Is the safety as reliable as you personaly need it to be? 2) when things go crazy and turn to s*** can I be sure I'll be able to work the safety, each and every time, without mechanical or human foul up, in all types of situations and with cold or dirty hands? Answer those questions before deciding if you're betting your life on it. Personally, and I said personally, I believe a hammer block safety, while not 100% foolproof, is a lot less likely to fail you under those types of situations, than a manualy operated one and if that gives me, even the minutest of edges, you'd best bet I'll take it. Just an added thought, since this topic started I've talked to a lot of gun owners and you know the one thing I keep hearing about manual safeties? "I know, beyond any doubt, that I put it on safe but when I checked it wasn't, and that's happened more than once!" THAT, is enough to convince me as I've been there myself. I'll give everyone another piece of advice, from personal exsperience. Most think that if you simply go along with an agressor that you'll be ok. I once thought that too. As a young man I worked at a service station and was robbed. I had a sawed off 12ga. jammed under my chin and a .38 pressed to the back of my head. I cooperated, stayed cool. They took the money and left and I patted myself on the back for handling things corectly. Two weeks later the station was robbed again. The attendant stayed cool, cooperated, gave them the money and they promptly shot him right between the eyes just for kicks! I believe that the very instant you percieve a threat you should act imediately and decisively.

[DC]

I used to carry a Ruger SS Blackhawk 44Mag with a 4 5/8 barrel.  I have a ccw permit and found that if postioned right is was fairly
concealable.  I carry a semi auto now because it is thinner and lighter even with twice as many rounds.  Comfort is important to me.  Since I am not a Peace Officer, I carry because I can here in Idaho.  When I first moved here and after the required amount of time I
applied for and got my CCW card.  I quickly found out that a heavy, thick weapon is not very comfortable, not to mention being hard to keep your pants up. LOL.
I now carry either a Taurus PT 908 or a new FN FNX 9 in belt slide holsters or in a fanny pack both of which work well.  Both are DA/SA which I felt was the best of both worlds. As far as reliability, DA/SA's are as reliable as any weapon that is well maintained.  I have owned a Para LDA as well that never had a hicup as long as I owned it. For me however the second round being SA or having the option to go SA on the first round was what made me feel the most comfortable.

I have carried Colt 1911's, high cap clones like the Para, in 440 S&W and 45. Icarried a Bersa 380 for a time which was a great little gun and I carried the 44 Mag.  I ended up with the two that I have not only for comfort but feeling that they were a good compramize between capacity and horse power.  

In the end it comes down to what you are comfortable with and can handle and shoot well.  For me the 9mm met all of that and is the least expensive to practice with.

[Spirithawk]

I used to carry a Ruger SS Blackhawk 44Mag with a 4 5/8 barrel.  I have a ccw permit and found that if postioned right is was fairly
concealable.  I carry a semi auto now because it is thinner and lighter even with twice as many rounds.  Comfort is important to me.  Since I am not a Peace Officer, I carry because I can here in Idaho.  When I first moved here and after the required amount of time I
applied for and got my CCW card.  I quickly found out that a heavy, thick weapon is not very comfortable, not to mention being hard to keep your pants up. LOL.
I now carry either a Taurus PT 908 or a new FN FNX 9 in belt slide holsters or in a fanny pack both of which work well.  Both are DA/SA which I felt was the best of both worlds. As far as reliability, DA/SA's are as reliable as any weapon that is well maintained.  I have owned a Para LDA as well that never had a hicup as long as I owned it. For me however the second round being SA or having the option to go SA on the first round was what made me feel the most comfortable.

I have carried Colt 1911's, high cap clones like the Para, in 440 S&W and 45. Icarried a Bersa 380 for a time which was a great little gun and I carried the 44 Mag.  I ended up with the two that I have not only for comfort but feeling that they were a good compramize between capacity and horse power.  

In the end it comes down to what you are comfortable with and can handle and shoot well.  For me the 9mm met all of that and is the least expensive to practice with.

 I agree and ease of concealment was very important in my choices too. The PF-9 is only a hair over 3/4" thick. I also had the same problem as you in that a heavy weapon kept trying to pull my britches down. My PF-9 weighs 18oz loaded. I chose it because it had the features I liked and needed. Looks were last on the list of my demands but I like it's looks too.

[mrussel]

Bottom line, a person...at least a wise one, carries what works best for them and what they have the most faith in. Yes, practice and reparatition makes for natural reaction. Buttttt, things can and do go wrong, manual safeties can and do fail, sweaty or dirty fingers do slip. If something like that happens you could, and most likely, will pay with your life. The less that can go wrong the less that will go wrong! Nor does everyone have the oportunity to put in the kind of practice you are talking about and practice under safe ideal conditions just don't count. Your key word is STRESS! The ONLY way you can truly practice for that situation is with someone coming at you with a weapon, or shooting at you and with a mutitude of disturbing things going on around you, in rain, sleet or snow, with less than clean dry hands,  PERIOD! Even then the only way, and I mean the ONLY way, you'll know if you have presence of mind to flick that safety off is when you are faced with a situation where you have to.  I simply prefer not to worry about a potential problem that I can completely remove before hand. Call it lazy, call it stupid if you wish, I call it the smart thing to do!

 

 The point is that you CAN ,and many of us DO practice to the point where the intent to fire the gun instantly translates into taking the safety off and pulling the trigger. If you get to that point, then it just happens. You dont even think about it. Its like driving a car. Last year I was crossing an intersection that was right before a hill. Someone came through the red light and was about to broadside me. I downshifted,floored the accelerator,came to the top of the hill,realized there was a truck stopped just over it,hit the brakes,let off the brakes because I could feel the brakes about to lock up,judged the distance to the oncoming cars ,threw the car into the oncoming lane,steered out of the spin it was trying to go into from that fast of lane change on an icy road, decided whether i needed to put it in the ditch or or could get back to my lane before a head on collision,downshifted again,hit the accelerator looked in front of the truck to make sure it was clear,slid back into my lane and again steered out of the spin it tried to go into on the icy road. just in front of the truck,all in fraction of a second while my girlfriend was screaming and grabbing my left arm in terror. (makes it much harder to shift that way)

 I didn't even realize what I had done until it was over. I was able to do that becuase when I was young and stupid and fearless I used to drive like a maniac,push my car to its limits and practice neat little tricks driving tricks. (A bootlegger reverse is fun to pull off on a deserted street,if you dont screw it up,hit the curb and roll your car,which I never did,but came damn close a few times,making for a "fun" afternoon of replacing suspension components) While I would not recommend it (In fact,I stopped because at one point I nearly ended up either dead by head on collision with a semi truck at 100mph or going airborne at 100mph into a ravine) my point is that practice makes even complex tasks under stress completely automatic. While I dont think I'm to that point with a gun,and I would not recommend the kind of dumb and reckless practice I got driving when I was younger and stupider,my point is that if you do it enough,you will get to the point where your dont think about it,like driving,it gets to the point where the intent to do something,like avoid a collision,is enough to make a complex series of actions happen.

 Thats why I started reloading actually. I thought about it and realized that it took about 3000 rounds of 22 to become what I felt was reasonably proficient. If I wanted to actually get good,I would need even more. 22 is about 3 cents a round so that's about 90 dollars which is fine. For something like my 1911, that's 1000 dollars,just for what I considered a reasonable degree of proficiency.(actually,I realized it takes more than that,the 1911 is harder to use than a scoped 22,or maybe my 22 is easier to use) Another option might be to get a similar semi auto in 22 (that's on my list of guns I want actually)

 I think its all a matter of what your used to and how much practice you have. I think if your dad put a 1911 or Browning High Power in your hand at 10 years old and you have been shooting just about every weekend for the next 40 years after that,your going to think "I need to take this guy down" and the rest is just going to happen. I also think its a good possibility that if you buy a 1911 and a box of ammo,and take it to the range in the back of the store,and shoot that one box of ammo,you may pull the trigger and be left thinking "Ok,nothing happened,lets see,magazine in,try the slide to chamber a new round,no it wont move,wait,safetys on" and as people have mentioned,by that time,you may be dead.

 If your not going to practice,your probably better off with something without that safety. In that case,you better be aware of the other shortcomings of it.

[mrussel]

Nope, I totally agree. Nothing is perfect but some things are less likely to malfunction than others. I agree too, that practice does help. But I strongly believe that if you rely on that alone you are asking for seriouse trouble.  Yes, there are differant levels of stress. Betting money on a shooting match, at least where I'm concerned, comes nowhere near having a split second to make a decision and put it into action in the process of trying to save your life and I have personally been there more than just a few times. Where safeties are concerned it all comes down to a few things one must answer to him or herself. 1) Is the safety as reliable as you personaly need it to be? 2) when things go crazy and turn to s*** can I be sure I'll be able to work the safety, each and every time, without mechanical or human foul up, in all types of situations and with cold or dirty hands? Answer those questions before deciding if you're betting your life on it. Personally, and I said personally, I believe a hammer block safety, while not 100% foolproof, is a lot less likely to fail you under those types of situations, than a manualy operated one and if that gives me, even the minutest of edges, you'd best bet I'll take it. Just an added thought, since this topic started I've talked to a lot of gun owners and you know the one thing I keep hearing about manual safeties? "I know, beyond any doubt, that I put it on safe but when I checked it wasn't, and that's happened more than once!" THAT, is enough to convince me as I've been there myself. I'll give everyone another piece of advice, from personal exsperience. Most think that if you simply go along with an agressor that you'll be ok. I once thought that too. As a young man I worked at a service station and was robbed. I had a sawed off 12ga. jammed under my chin and a .38 pressed to the back of my head. I cooperated, stayed cool. They took the money and left and I patted myself on the back for handling things corectly. Two weeks later the station was robbed again. The attendant stayed cool, cooperated, gave them the money and they promptly shot him right between the eyes just for kicks! I believe that the very instant you percieve a threat you should act imediately and decisively.

 I disagree. Its about managing risks. Nothing is certain,not a manual safety. Not cooperating with an attacker. Not acting immediately and decisively. What do you do if one guy distracts you while the other points a gun at you while your back is turned,or in some other way gets the drop on you. Cooperating because you dont want to act,or cooperating because you are afraid to act are not good courses of action. Still,you need to decide whats best in each individual situation.

 Imagine there are several people in the store,one man asks you something and as you turn to talk to him,the other man pulls a shotgun and points it at the back of your head,as you turn back and realize whats happened,the other guy pulls out a handgun and points it at you. Is the best course of action really to pull your gun? That sounds like a certain way to get shot. Your best bet is to assess the situation. If you think that they are certainly going to kill you after they get he money (for instance its happened at other stores in the area and the suspects match these guys description) then yes,of course its best to act. Id rather be shot in a random place as I'm making an attempt to defend myself than herded into a freezer and shot in the back of the head. On the other hand,if they get the drop on you,or there are multiple armed attackers, or maybe they grab a hostage, say your co-worker who was stocking the beer cooler,things become more complex. I really dont like blanket statements that people make about how you should always act a certain way in a situation becuase each is unique. I'm certainly not going to pull a gun if its clearly suicidal to do it. (and yes,I understand that its best not to get in that situation to begin with,but should and could of dont always work and you have to deal with the cards your dealt) I'm also not going to act with reckless disregard for someone elses life.

 What I think has to happen is you have to assess the risk of getting killed by doing nothing vs the risk of action and it has to be done very rapidly. A man pointing a gun in your face with his shaking hand on the trigger and desperately screaming at you that he wants the money and there better be more than 40 f%$#ing dollars in the register (especially when you know there is 23 dollars and change in there) is high risk of getting shot pulling your gun,but high risk of getting shot anyway. Maybe you might risk trying to get your gun out. A man who walks in grabs two six packs of beer,pushes his jacket aside,while still holding the beer to show you his gun and says put the money in a bag,when you have nearly 1000 dollars in the register,seems like less of a risk of shooting you,but also less of a risk when pulling your gun (its not in his hand,its under the jacket,his hands are actually full and you will probably surprise him) I might be inclined to feel that even though the risk is small of getting shot,its high enough as Spirithawk has suggested to act quickly and decisively. On the other hand,if as Ive mentioned above,they have the drop on you,you have to make the decision whether they are going to shoot you or let you go if you cooperate. Its all about risk,you have no way to know whats going to happen until its already happened. You have to decide which is most likely to get you through it safely and the advice "always pull out your gun" is as likely to get you killed as the advice "always cooperate"

 Just think of September 11th. When it was a terrorist demanding the plane fly to Cuba,maybe it made sense to cooperate until the pilots could get the plane on the ground to refuel for the trip and the hostage negotiators (for those who say you never negotiate with hostages,hostage negotiators are not there to give concessions to terrorists,they are there to lure them into a false sense of security, talk them into giving up hostages, and string them along until the snipers get a clear shot) ,snipers and other experts can do their jobs. When terrorists started demanding to be allowed to fly the planes themselves,that all changed.

[SHOOTALL]

First no one said a wager is the same as a life and death struggle but it makes one try harder.
 As far as course of action it is important to have run thru. several courses of action in your head at least before getting into trouble. Its easy really , if you park in the same spot everyday then it would be easy to come up with some of the "what ifs" that could happen . As far as the hostage sit. in a store . Thats where reading or classes help . In a store or resturant if the bad guy takes you to the cooler in over 90% of the time its to kill you. In a bank it you are being taken to the vault its likely you won't be harmed . This came from a class I took and were part of an FBI report on what happens in such situations . Knowing the above would have bearing on my decision if confronted with either case.
 Many feel a gun is the end all to personal safety when in reality it is an erasser for when you have screwed up in many cases. Its like the question - if you knew you would be in a gun fight if you go to such and so what gun would you take. Smart ansewer is I would not go ! To survive a gun fight is to win . Best way to survive is not be in a gun fight.
 Reality of a gun fight is most any gun will work if the shooter is willing to do what he has to do. Part of willing is to decide in advance if you are willing to live a lifestyle that educates you in self defense and are willing to live it. It often means not going to dangerous places , different clothes and staying alert at all times. Many won't do these things. BTW if safties were a problem then why do those who go into some of the most dangerous places carry 1911's Why is the Browning HP still used by many police and military units over the world ?
Part of the lifestyle is keeping your weapon clean , A friend of mine carried a Glock 19 for a summer in his bibs . When he decided to shoot it one day the slide would not retract. After using a hammer and block of wood it would move and the gun worked . It was full of dust , sweat and pocket trash.