Author Topic: Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article  (Read 1097 times)

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Offline Gatofeo

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« on: November 29, 2003, 07:51:11 AM »
Taken from the article, "Accuracy of the Muzzleloading Rifle" by Walter M. Cline and published in the July 1935 issue of the American Rifleman.
This is an extremely interesting article.
The author used 10 original muzzleloading rifles which were designed for target shooting. The lightest rifle weighed 11 pounds! Some neared 20 pounds. These were very finely made rifles, presumably dating from the 1870s or before and made to wring the absolute best accuracy from a patched, round ball.
There's a lot of fodder for argument and concurrence in his statements. Anyone care to offer their own comments?
Here's what Mr. Cline has to say:

"The powder residue is continually changing the shape of the powder chamber, and unless the rifle is wiped out carefully, this has an effect upon accuracy.
"We wiped the bore carefully after each shot, being sure that the wiping rag reached to the bottom of all the grooves. In wiping, the rag is moistened with either saliva or water, and care taken to see that is follows the grooves.
"The rag should be pushed down very slowly, so that the fouling will be moistened. After reaching the breech it is allowed to remain a minute or more, so that the powder residue in the chamber will be absorbed by the rag., after which it is carefully removed.
"The powder fouling in the grooves that was moistened as the rag was pushed down, comes out very readily as the wiping rod is removed. The fouling on the rag is wiped off and the rag then used to wipe the bore clean.
It is important that one be careful to wipe the barrel the same each time; in fact this is one of the most important points in using a muzzle-loader."

Other points of interest:

A. "We tried seating the bullet with the neck or sprue down, as well as up, but could see no difference in accuracy."

B. "Now as to bullet size, the old rule still holds, and a bullet that will slide down the barrel under the weight of the ramrod is not far from being right. The tightness of the (round) bullet with patch should be such as to require from 18 to 20 pounds pressure to seat the bullet on the powder."

C. "The patch should fill the grooves, and we checked this by unbreeching the barrel and then pushing patched bullets through, varying the thickness of patch until the imprint of the grooves showed that the patch was filling them to the bottom."

D. Apparently, Mr. Cline used nothing but saliva as a patch lubricant. I found no reference to other lubricants. His patch material was linen, .015 inches thick.

E. "In this test, we used both peep sights and telescopes and found that there was very little difference between the two at 50 yards, the peep sight giving just as good groups as the telescope."

F. "… a  very slightly tapered or choked bore gave the best accuracy. However, the bore should be but .001 (inch) or less larger at the breech than at the muzzle. For if too large it will cause the patch to slip, which is one of the principal causes of off shots, and is caused by the fouling which sometimes accumulates at the breech."

G. "The great question as to whether modern tools and machinery can build a better muzzle-loading rifle than be the old methods, has been settled in our minds; the answer being most emphatically No! Modern machinery, gas welding and electric furnaces can fashion the old tools more easily, and perhaps better, than can the old hand methods. But the old tools, handled in the old way, are still supreme … "
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline RandyWakeman

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Re: Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2003, 12:32:54 PM »
Quote from: Gatofeo
There's a lot of fodder for argument and concurrence in his statements. Anyone care to offer their own comments?


Since the title of the article was "accuracy," what was it?

Offline crow_feather

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2003, 05:56:51 AM »
From what I understand Randy, They put 10 balls in a 1/2 inch hole at 400 yards.

C F
IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline RandyWakeman

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2003, 06:23:13 AM »
No doubt.

I was referring to actually shooting the guns.

Offline Gatofeo

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2003, 04:27:39 PM »
Of the 10 rifles used, five sere selected for their outstanding accuracy.
Those five were each fired 10 shots. Then, Mr. Cline made a composite of all 50 shots from the five rifles.
All 50 shots, at 50 yards, went into under one inch. The article includes a photo of this composite.
Even with modern muzzleloaders, that's amazing accuracy.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline Omega

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2003, 04:57:16 AM »
Quote from: Gatofeo
Even with modern muzzleloaders, that's amazing accuracy.


Do you think so? I mean really? If 1 inch groups was the best my ml's could do at 50 yards I'd be looking to change something.  :D
Rich
"Beware all undertakings that require new clothes."

Offline rollingb

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2003, 05:21:01 AM »
Omega,.... Read it "AGIN",..... "50 shots", from "5 different rifles", one hole group "UNDER one inch"!! (let's see ya, "pull thet'n off" with yore inlines!!) :-D  :-D
"Modern inline" is an old mountain-man phrase,... fer "butt-ugly club"!!

Offline Omega

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2003, 06:04:19 AM »
Quote from: rollingb
Omega,.... Read it "AGIN",..... "50 shots", from "5 different rifles", one hole group "UNDER one inch"!! (let's see ya, "pull thet'n off" with yore inlines!!) :-D  :-D


I read it right the first time, and remain very unimpressed. "Thet" thar "aint" SHOOTN "whar" I coms from. :D
"Beware all undertakings that require new clothes."

Offline rollingb

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2003, 07:10:43 AM »
Omega,..... Is ther a "way" you can verify yore "claim"?? (remember to use inlines of 5 "different MAKES")

OK!!.... let's make it easy for you, 'cause I know thet yore an "honest" man,..... please post a 10-shot targit, shot at a range of 50 yards, with "roundball" (sprue up or down), and measured with calipers,..... all with the same inline.

"RULES" can be sticklers sometimes, when we all have to play by the same "ground rules"!!
 
Nowhere in Gatofeo's post,... did he make any "accuracy" comments in regards to the modern "inline" or "conical bullets"!!

Please post a pitcher of yore targit,..... "at yore earlyest convenience"!!  :D
"Modern inline" is an old mountain-man phrase,... fer "butt-ugly club"!!

Offline HWooldridge

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2003, 08:49:48 AM »
Gato,

Walter Cline had a gunshop in San Antonio, Texas for many years and did some fine gunsmithing work on older guns.  It was still open when I was a young whippersnapper but I think he has now passed on to the happy hunting grounds.  Most of his comments echo the more recent work of Dutch Schoultz, with the exception being the recommendation for a fairly loose fitting ball.

Offline spitpatch

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2003, 02:11:12 PM »
I don't know if I agree with the loose ball theory, I shoot .535 (Hornady) balls with pillow ticking patches TC-.54 Mountain hawken..20-25 year old gun and I can cut 1" groups all day at 50 yards with open sights. Would put it against ANY in-line......open sights. Rollingb, your an hornry cuss askin' him shoot in-lines like that.
Quality will be remembered long after price is forgotten

Offline rollingb

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2003, 04:02:15 PM »
Spitpatch,.... :)  :D
"Modern inline" is an old mountain-man phrase,... fer "butt-ugly club"!!

Offline KING

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2003, 03:28:16 PM »
:D      I have several of the old books and most are in referance to the accuracy of these rb rifles.  There was quite a ritual in both cleaning and loading of each individual rifle.  When I started a little over 40 yrs ago I remember my dad telling me about slowley putting the wet patch into the bore,and a slow retrieve after bottoming out.  I just wish I could shoot as good as those old rifles can.  Stay safe..........King
THE ONLY FEMALE THAT I TRUST IS A LABRADOR.......AND SHE DONT SNOORE,AND DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT MY COOKING...THE ONLY GODS THAT EXIST ARE THOSE THAT HAVE ONE IN THE CHAMBER,AND 19 IN THE MAG.......

Offline spitpatch

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2003, 05:31:22 PM »
King
 It is a ritual...everything from loading to cleaning. My gun is...I'm guessing around 30 years old, has been shot more times than I can count, and still has a mirror bore. I've taken extreme care with it and it has taken extreme care of me. Caring for this gun is a labor of love. It has never let me down in the woods. I've had this gun before I was old enough to own a centerfire and have a fondness for it like no other, and I sometimes worry about who to give it to when the time comes. I currently own 37 rifles and a dozen pistols and this BP rifle gives me the most pleasure......and memories.
Quality will be remembered long after price is forgotten

Offline crow_feather

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2003, 05:36:28 PM »
37 rifles huh?


Er.....................................................will you adopt?

C F
IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline spitpatch

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Muzzleloder accuracy, 1935 article
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2003, 01:28:38 AM »
Sorry Crow- Feather
  Have a pretty big tribe now. One more would push me off the edge of the envelope. :)
Quality will be remembered long after price is forgotten