Lincoln the Tyrant

[Gary G]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3uPX5I6hUc&feature=player_embedded

[Dee]

Gary, that and the other videos connected to associated with your topic are excellent examples of REAL HISTORY, rather than conjecture. Thanks,

[Ga.windbreak]

Two thumbs up Gary, Also enjoyed Ron Paul's take on this matter!

[Swampman]

http://www.historynet.com/abraham-lincoln-tyrant-hypocrite-or-consummate-statesman.htm

[Ga.windbreak]

http://www.historynet.com/abraham-lincoln-tyrant-hypocrite-or-consummate-statesman.htm

It seems your lacky has placed Lincoln second only to our creator and far above George Washington and our founding fathers. WADR I find that not only laughable but repugnant in its dishonesty to the rule of law.

I would suggest you read the following:

 James Buchanan and his 1860 State of the Union Address

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=946

The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force.

As the President Lincoln had no right to declare war which is at the sole discreation of Congress, as Ron Paul rightly points out I might add!

If one is willing to elevate a president to such glory because of war then Truman's use of the Atom bomb should place him longside Lincoln if not above him for that act saved the world not just the Union!

[Gary G]

If one is willing to elevate a president to such glory because of war then Truman's use of the Atom bomb should place him longside Lincoln if not above him for that act saved the world  not just the Union!

I like that GaW. I may want to use it.

I like Ron Paul. Unlike other politicians, I don't think he knows how to tell a lie even when he gets grief for for saying what he believes.
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Swamp, did Lincoln save the Union?

Before Lincoln's war we were truly a union of states. After his war it seems that we became one country ruled by one powerful central government, making us just like all the other countries of the world. So perhaps Lincoln, rather than saving the union, actually destroyed the union, and with it our liberty.

[teamnelson]

Lincoln preserved The State ... not the States.

I think TM7s passing comment was interesting in that Lincoln may have felt it was worth abandoning the republic to build a stronger union in the face of external forces. Sort of a lesser of two evils decision ... that would be charitable on Lincoln's behalf, and begs the question, would we have been better off if the Confederation had been successful in protecting their independence? Are we would now be much like a fragmented Europe, and worse for it? All that said, we can definitely see the erosion of liberties accelerating in earnest in the wake of his term in office, so perhaps Lincoln himself would regret his decision in hindsight.

A modern analogy might be Saddam Hussein, a tyrant who has been the only person to keep warring internal factions at bay, protect his homeland from 2 possibly 3 foreign incursions, all the while creating wealth for his nation and preserving religious freedom for all, 5th largest army, high education levels ... A tyrant, absolutely, and ruthless, personally shooting his opposition and worse. Yet when we withdraw (some day), individual Iraqis will have less freedoms, less wealth, and be far more susceptible to external influence in our wake (this is concurred by all parties). Not saying Saddam was THE answer, just AN answer that worked ... and that'll be discussed for generations to come. So Lincoln may have been a tyrant, and undeniably repressed the liberties of many for a time, and set the stage for future infringement of all, but one wonders what the alternative might have been. Personally, I would've like to have seen it just on the principle of state sovereignty but I am one who is unafraid of the risks involved with right choices. Our society is not.

[Ga.windbreak]

I think TM7s passing comment was interesting in that Lincoln may have felt it was worth abandoning the republic to build a stronger union in the face of external forces. Sort of a lesser of two evils decision ... that would be charitable on Lincoln's behalf, and begs the question, would we have been better off if the Confederation had been successful in protecting their independence?

You may be right but the point is Lincoln had no authority to make such a move in the first place. Your second question begs to be followed by this question. Was the Confederation really unsuccessful or was the excuse of weakness used by a few wanting to have a more central government, George Washington included? I think the later is true and a true republic (which was tried twice) was never given a proper chance to fulfill its dream of freedom. We were hoodwinked by our leaders who even with their beautiful sounding words were still, in their core, afraid of us "the Citizens"!

[Gary G]

I think TM7s passing comment was interesting in that Lincoln may have felt it was worth abandoning the republic to build a stronger union in the face of external forces. Sort of a lesser of two evils decision ... that would be charitable on Lincoln's behalf, and begs the question, would we have been better off if the Confederation had been successful in protecting their independence? Are we would now be much like a fragmented Europe, and worse for it?

What external forces should we consider?
How would killing 600,000 Americans be the lesser of two evils? No external force could do that.

The Eurozone are different countries with different peoples with a common currency, but no common interests. A better comparison would be Switzerland, a nation of states and economically one of the strongest countries in Europe with AAA ratings.

Perhaps Lincoln did, as some researchers have stated, convey to those power elites who put him in office that he would uphold the repressive Morill Tariff against all opposition. A loss of the taxes from the southern ports would have ruined him politically. IMO, most all politicians are motivated by power and staying in power.

[teamnelson]

TM7, I confess my own grasp of world history for the period in question is not well formed, so for the sake of discussion I am willing to accept at face value what you're saying until shown otherwise. It makes sense to me that the various heads of state in Europe were very much interested in expanding their colonies in North America, just as they were doing in Asia & Africa at the same time.

That said, how sad it is that in the interest of protecting us from Marxism & Imperialism, Lincoln neutered the Republic, neutered the States, centralized power on the Federal government, engaged in disinformation & deception, and actually paved the way for Marxism's return. Its either a cautionary tale to whit, the ends do not justify the means. Or Lincoln had a plan (or a hope) to get us back on track, which died with him.

As for today, regardless of motive, Lincoln bears much responsibility for clearing the field in which others planted.

[Gary G]

If such were the case, it seems Lincoln would have had a stronger position if he had avoided the war. That was within his power. War would certainly weaken both the CSA and USA to external forces.

I have read that some of the Russian fleet was parked for the winter on both coasts of the US. Some thought that Russia was here to help Lincoln. That was not the case. The Czar feared a war with England and did not want to winter it's fleet in frozen ports at home.

[Swampman]

The late Shelby Foote said there were to great geniuses of the Civil War.  One was Lincoln and the other was Forrest.  I have to agree.

[Dee]

Lincoln was financed by the industrialized north, to carry out the wishes of the industrialized north. Their wishes? CONTROL THE SOUTHERN TEXTILE INDUSTRY, i.e., cotton and so fourth. The south paid over 70% of all taxes paid by the American populace, and they were gaining strength. Intentionally starting an internal war was nothing more than forcibly bringing the South into line, by genocide, and destruction, and human suffering. Lincoln was a SOB of the lowest order, and that is being as gentle in his description, as I am capable of.
Lincoln was, and is CONSTANTLY touted by the black man as his saviour. The black man along with all in sympathy there of, need to read their REAL history. Their REAL SAVIOUR was John Wilkes Booth. Had Booth not been in such a hurry to put Lincoln out of OUR MISERY, we would not have many of the problems we have today, nor a large population of certain malcontents for that matter. Instead of a Lincoln Memorial  , the government should have erected a "Shrine Of Human Suffering, and Predation" led by the queer president Lincoln. Ahhh! History diluted, and rearranged.

[Dee]

Also, unfortunate is blaming a dead man for what was to follow in the wake of this giant deception[/i].

..TM7
.

Then why are your here? The discussion is about Lincoln and his traitorous deeds and intentions.

[Dee]

Less than 5% of the population owned slaves in the South, so why indeed was so large a portion of the population willing to rise up to fight the NORTHERN AGRESSION. The answer lies in a simple explanation. FREEDOM AND "STATES RIGHTS" concerning that freedom.
Lincoln is not solely responsible for our current situation in this country. He is however, a MAJOR actor, or paving stone on the road that brought us to this point. He TOOK UPON HIMSELF to use the power ENTRUSTED to him, to act not as a REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PEOPLE, but instead as a DICTATOR TO THE PEOPLE, in order to get not what THEY believed good for the people but, what HE believed good for them. He was as said in the title, a TYRANT, and a self righteous ass, that got a bullet for his trouble. A little too early, but a bullet just the same.

[Swampman]

If it weren't for Lincoln the entire world would be speaking German.  He was a good man.

[Dee]

If it weren't for Lincoln the entire world would be speaking German.  He was a good man.

  ::)LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ga.windbreak]

If it weren't for Lincoln the entire world would be speaking German.  He was a good man.

I thought we covered that SM, the guy's name was Truman. Lincoln died 80 years earlier, remember?

BTW, tangentially....I often wondered how the rank and file citizens of the South, essentially 99% good God fearing people, farmers and what not; could be mustered to defend the 1% of the plantation political class. How did they do that...? The answer supports my theory on the 'forces' at work on this war.

Its called love of country, you need to remember loyalty to one's state (in the south) was the mainstay in those days. The northern fanatics only stirred that pot even more and Lincoln was seen as the interloper attacking our home and harth.

If your theory held any water at all Fort Sumter would have never happened. As Virginia (and 4 others) joined the cause only after Lincoln was seen in the light I painted. He wasn't worried about external forces nearly as much as he was the thought that all the border states would pull out and leave Washington totally surrounded and in the enemy camp.

I could repeat and back up what Dee has stated as true (because it is) with chapter and verse but the links are listed in this forum and have been quoted many times with the facts for all to see. One can lead a horse to water but some still die from thirst. Believe what you will; the facts are indisputeable.

[Ga.windbreak]

The late Shelby Foote said there were to great geniuses of the Civil War.  One was Lincoln and the other was Forrest.  I have to agree.

You realize, of course Shelby Foote was a fiction writer. He loved a good story. Being from the South I give him his due regard but allow for his lack of historical facts as fiction writers tin to romanize the truth as they see it. All you have to do is read his triligy to see that and his slant towards all things northern. He down played Lee, Jackson, Davis, and many others plus he left out all facts detrimentle to the Northern army and its sweep thru our land burning and raping as they did. 

[ironglow]

    POBODY'S NERFECT !

[Gary G]

Just posted today on LRC:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo191.html

More proof that Dee is correct!

[Dee]

In his own words, Lincoln declared war and violated states rights, and the Constitution. In his own words, Lincoln declared all races other than whites inferior. And in his own words, Lincoln SAID that America was for white men only. AND, Lincoln without the help of England or France, stated that all blacks would be expelled out of America to Liberia. It is no longer amazing, but rather EXPECTED, that some will ignore a subject's own words, and deeds (in this case Lincoln) in favor of a CONSPIRIACY. I suppose this is why someone such as myself, whom speaks what I think, without subliminal meaning, is often credited with thoughts I never thought.
As far as England and France interfering? If it weren't for the FRENCH, you might be speaking Cherokee, or with a thick BRITISH accent. Did they make money on the war? Just like Lincoln's side, they made a killing, and still are making a killing with war.

[Dee]

Neatly spun Tm. Another conspiracy installed in place of the truth. If you happy with ignoring facts and opt for theory, I'm happy. I gotta go to Washington State.

[Ga.windbreak]

Lincoln understood American traditions, understood Washington's final address, which may also give us some unusual insights into the "principalities and powers" of Ephesians Chapter 6...Lincoln calling it the Ancient Conspiracy
  
Abraham Lincoln worked valiantly to prevent the Internationalist attempts to involve themselves in financing the Civil War.  
  
Interestingly, it was the Czar of Russia who provided the needed assistance against the British and French, who were among the driving forces behind the secession of the South and her subsequent financing. Russia intervened by providing naval forces for the Union blockade of the South in European waters, and by letting both countries know that if they attempted to join the Confederacy with military forces, they would also have to go to war with Russia. Unfortunately for Birtish, French and financiers (and of course Americans), the idea of a quick profitable war was negated by this Russian 'balance of power' play.
  
International financial interests DID succeed, through their agent Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase, to force a bill (the National Banking Act, forerunner of Wilson's FED Act) through Congress creating a federally chartered central bank that had the power to issue U.S. Bank Notes. Afterward, Lincoln warned the American people:
"The money power preys upon the nation in time of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me, and causes me to tremble for the safety of our country. Corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. "
Lincoln continued to fight against the central bank, and some now believe that it was his anticipated success in influencing Congress to limit the life of the Bank of the United States to just the war years that was the motivating factor behind his assassination. I believe this to be the exact case given the facts of other presidential assassinations, AND the facts that the very faults you credit Lincoln indeed happened after his death and are worse today...he became the convenient scapegoat and thusly channeling any other patriotic enterprize to perserve the Republic as unworthy, unwise, un-Constitutional....a neat little trick thusly roadblocking any future attempts at perserving the Republic or getting in the way of the protagionist that would do us in....such is the very case today.


..TM7  

While there is some truth in what you say, conspiracy theorists need some truth to make their case plausable, you fail to address the fact that Lincoln HIMSELF, thru his Army male friend, came up with the Greenback idea to pay for his war. That surely is NOT the mark of a smart man and in point of fact shows just how dumb he was to allow himself to be drawn into that which you say he said "Causes me to tremble." Yeah right!!!

[ironglow]

Just posted today on LRC:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo191.html

More proof that Dee is correct!

     A contention, but not necessarily proof. Keep in mind there are many biographers of A. Lincoln; the one you mentioned plus Ron White, Fred Kaplan, Doris Kearns Goodwin, James Mcpherson, W H Herndon and others. One can find what one wants..hero or villian..and we can choose and quote just the one we want. doesn't necessarily mean he/she is better than any other biographer of Lincoln.

[Ga.windbreak]

How about this truth!

http://www.halexandria.org/dward282.htm

It must be noted that a Government’s tactic of fostering emergencies and stepping in as the hero to extricate the people from the “difficulty” by dramatically increasing state power is as old as governments themselves (and as new as the war on terrorism as begun on 9-11-2001!).  The U.S. bankruptcy occurring in 1861 placed the country under Emergency War Powers (12 Stat 319), which has never been repealed and exists in Title 50 United States Code (USC) §§212, 213, 215, Appendix 16, 26 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Chapter 1 § 303.1-6(a), and 31 CFR Chapter 5 § 500.701 Penalties. The Civil War was not fought over slavery, but over private bank control of America. On October 6, 1917, the United States passed the Trading With the Enemy Act (H.R. 4960, Public Law 91), granting itself extraordinary additional powers under the cover of WWI.   

On March 9, 1933, just after Franklin Roosevelt’s Inauguration, Congress passed the Amendatory Act (48 Stat. 1 ) to the Trading With the Enemy Act, at a time when the United States was not in a shooting war with any foreign foe. This was due to the Government having become an administration for the Creditors in Bankruptcy, The amended version provided legal justification for dramatic increases in the power, scope, and authority of the U.S. Government (now owned by, and an administrative agency of, the bankers).  Aspects of such increase are;

Lincoln rather than the appearance of warning the American people in reality whored for the very bankers he warned us about. FDR followed suit in 1933 and we see Obama doing the very same thing today. BTW Wilson said just about the same thing (as Lincoln) as he was leaving office after setting up the Fed and raping us with an income tax.

[ironglow]

Ga.windbreak;
   I checked  http://www.halexandria.org/dward282.htm  ..didn't find anything directly related to Lincoln, but as a "truth", I do question that site.
  To start with the article states flatly that "money is the root of all evil"...but according to most Christian scholars you left out the operative word. They should have said "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil". (1 Tim 6:10)
   According to the article, it claims that James Trafficant jr had something inserted into the congressional Record of ..March1, 1933, vol 33, page H-1303. now that could have been quite a feat !...being as james trafficant jr wasn'ty BORN until May 8, 1941 !
   I believe Trafficant is still in jail...or newly released. Not sure he was fairly convicted..may have been a railroading.

    ...Perhaps it's just that when I see a website filled with various conspiracies and the letterhead having a pyramid, right away my suspicions are  aroused !

[Swampman]

Truman was a joke, but he wouldn't have had a country to take to war against Germany if Lincoln hadn't created the United States of America.

[subdjoe]

Truman was a joke, but he wouldn't have had a country to take to war against Germany if Lincoln hadn't created the United States of America.

Of course, you are making the assumption that everything else in world history would have stayed exactly the same if the CS had either been allowed to leave the Union or had won the ACW.  False assumption, most likely.

[Swampman]

Everything happens exactly according to God's plan.  Nothing can change it.