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Author Topic: Idea on a new carbine  (Read 1315 times)

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Offline Sourdough

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Idea on a new carbine
« on: July 18, 2010, 11:35:52 AM »
I'm not complaining mind you.  I love my .45 pistol and am awaiting the release of the .45 Carbine.

The one question I have is:  Has Hi-Point looked at the possiability of making a carbine in .223?  The .223 is a low pressure cartridge, like the pistol cartridges they are currently using.  I do believe it would make a good seller for Hi-Point.  It would give us a little bit more range for coyotes and varmits.  Plus the ammo is cheaper and easier to find than some pistol cartridges.
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Offline briannmilewis

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 05:27:03 PM »
Quote from: Sourdough on July 18, 2010, 11:35:52 AM
The .223 is a low pressure cartridge, like the pistol cartridges they are currently using.

I went to bed last night comforted by the widely held view by people way smarter than me, that the 223 Rem is a high pressure load, and if shot in a Handi, I need a SB2 receiver...what happened? :-\
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 08:33:08 PM »
SB-2 frames are required to shoot anything but shotguns.  The hole in the SB.1 frames is too big to accept rifle or pistol cartridges.  It could cause blow back from blown primers.  TC makes contender barrels for the .223, 30-30, 45-70, and loads of pistol cartridges.  But they do not make barrels for the .243, or the .308, or other high pressure cartridges. 

But my son pointed out this after noon that the case would be too long for the magazine encased in the grip. 

Maybe they could use the 5.7 FN round instead.
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Offline jdwolf

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 03:24:00 PM »
A Hi Point .223 carbine?  Yeah,  I love the idea.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline mrussel

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2010, 07:11:40 PM »
Quote from: Sourdough on July 19, 2010, 08:33:08 PM
SB-2 frames are required to shoot anything but shotguns.  The hole in the SB.1 frames is too big to accept rifle or pistol cartridges.  It could cause blow back from blown primers.  TC makes contender barrels for the .223, 30-30, 45-70, and loads of pistol cartridges.  But they do not make barrels for the .243, or the .308, or other high pressure cartridges. 

But my son pointed out this after noon that the case would be too long for the magazine encased in the grip. 

Maybe they could use the 5.7 FN round instead.

 My reloading manuals list pressures in a 223 around 55000psi. Thats hardly "low pressure" 45ACP is listed as being around 20,000. For comparison, the old standby of "One heck of a round",30-06,has maximum pressure around 60,000 and one of my favorites,8mm Mauser (CIP specs,not the anemic SAMMI specs),which "kinda like a 30-06",is 57000. Even something very robust in a handgun,like 44 magnum is about 40,000. 454 Casull,which is barely a handgun round,is around 55000!
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 09:30:36 PM »
Back in the day when NEF was owned by NEF( the mid 90s), they would only put what they called low pressure barrels on SB-2 recievers.  You could buy a 30-06, or a .308, or .243.  But they would only put .22 Hornet, .223, 30-30, or 45-70, barrels on your redciever with the barrel accessory program.  So appearantly the .223 falls with certain paramators to get it classified as low pressure.

But the idea may be mute anyway since the .223 round is too long to fit in a magazine that would fit in the grip of the gun.  My son recommended the new 5.7 round, it's a lot shorter, but I don't know what the pressures are on that round.  My son has a friend that has one.  A semi auto pistol that holds 20 rounds, in a magazine that fits in the pistol grip.
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 09:51:03 PM »
The Hi-Point carbine is a weak blow back action, and would have to be totally redesigned to be able to handle a high pressure rifle round.  The issue with guns like the Contender isn't just pressure, its also "bolt thrust".
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2010, 09:36:34 AM »
Don't really expect to see it.  But I did send an e-mail to Hi-Point, and got a response.  They said they would look into it.  I just thought the .223 or the 5.7 FN would be neat in a carbine that size.
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Offline Merle

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 08:39:24 AM »
Quote from: Sourdough on July 19, 2010, 08:33:08 PM
SB-2 frames are required to shoot anything but shotguns.  The hole in the SB.1 frames is too big to accept rifle or pistol cartridges.  It could cause blow back from blown primers.  TC makes contender barrels for the .223, 30-30, 45-70, and loads of pistol cartridges.  But they do not make barrels for the .243, or the .308, or other high pressure cartridges. 

But my son pointed out this after noon that the case would be too long for the magazine encased in the grip. 

Maybe they could use the 5.7 FN round instead.



Rest assured the 223 is a high pressure cartridge. Check some reloading manuals.

The reason TC Contenders can handle it is related to the case head size, which determines the total amount of back-thrust.

Multiply the pressure, which is in pounds per square inch, times the actual square inch head surface of a 223 case. Now compare that number to the square inch value of a case the size of a 243 & you'll see the difference. BIG increase in the back-thrust values.

I have seen Contenders chambered for 243 Winchester in the early days of IHMSA competition; they didn't blow up, but they didn't last very long either before wearing out the locking surface on the frame.

 :o :o :o
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Offline Chip Monk

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Re: Idea on a new carbine
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2010, 12:06:30 AM »
Keltec offers both 9mm and .223 carbines.  They both fold too, which is fairly cool.  I have a Hi Point 995, but consider the Keltec Sub2000 to be a step up from it. :)
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