Handgun For Hunting In Grizzly Country

[temmi]

Not sure I'm up to hunting one with JUST a handgun... but the one I would carry is my 480R super redhawk

[Curtis]

mrussel your sense of humor is right up my alley.  I read your post to my son and he liked it too!  Thanks for the laugh.

Curtis

[Drilling Man]

  I've shot a few big bears, and i spent many years hunting them, and hunting other big game in bear country.  I'm also an above average pistol shot, having taken moose and other big game with my 44 magnum.  BUT, if i was you i'd forget about carrying a pistol for bear portection, and carry a short bbled shotgun loaded with slugs!

  DM

[mrussel]

  I've shot a few big bears, and i spent many years hunting them, and hunting other big game in bear country.  I'm also an above average pistol shot, having taken moose and other big game with my 44 magnum.  BUT, if i was you i'd forget about carrying a pistol for bear portection, and carry a short bbled shotgun loaded with slugs!

  DM

 

I just read the Utah codes. I was under the impression that the laws applied to handguns but they just say "firearms" so I guess I COULD carry a shotgun in addition to a muzzle loader or archery equipment. Some states do not allow this however. In fact,according to what I read,(and no,I dont have the stones to try it!) I could strap on a bandoleer of shells,take my 12ga pump action,sling it over my shoulder and go to the mall. Thats pretty sweet. Since Utah exempts any weapon carried in compliance with the laws on "concealed carry" which really just makes certain laws on open or concealed carry not apply to you,I guess I CAN carry a shotgun with me. In some states this is not the case. Most shall issue states however do exempt whatever the concealed carry permit allows you to carry.

 (I can just see getting stopped by a officer.  "Just so you know,Im carry some concealed weapons,I have a 44 magnum revolver in a cross draw on my left side and a 1911 on the other..." "Do you have any other weap.." "You didnt let me finish,I have a 32 semiauto in my boot,a 12 ga shotgun hanging under my coat, and a short rifle slung across my back...","Ok,is that (Laughs a little nervously)" "Let me finish. I have a 38 special revolver in my coat pocket,one of those belt buckle guns on belt and one of those concealed wallet guns in my back pocket." "Just keep your hands on the steering wheel,Ill finish writing the ticket as soon as backup arrives"

[Oldshooter]

Biggest thing I have ever shot was a big assed Axis buck at 220 yards with a 308. He ran 30 yards and jumped a fence with a 30 caliber bullet hole all the way thru his body and heart and shoulder! Now if I was unlucky enough to get real close to a Big brown bear I'd likely wet my pants or dirty em fer sure!  And having seen that buck run that far with that big hole all the way thru him I might not think of my hand gun till way after the whole thing was over.     

[Cheesehead]

One or more hits from a hand gun may deter a bear from attacking, not cut him in half.

Cheese

[v-man]

I just read my latest American Rifleman and it tells all about one of the "greatest"" PH's in Africa and all the elephants and buffalo he killed with only a 7X57. Seems like a little ole' Griz would be easy with just about any kind of handgun or pellet rifle based on that.

[Oldshooter]

I just read my latest American Rifleman and it tells all about one of the "greatest"" PH's in Africa and all the elephants and buffalo he killed with only a 7X57. Seems like a little ole' Griz would be easy with just about any kind of handgun or pellet rifle based on that.

TROLL ALERT !!!         

[mrussel]

I just read my latest American Rifleman and it tells all about one of the "greatest"" PH's in Africa and all the elephants and buffalo he killed with only a 7X57. Seems like a little ole' Griz would be easy with just about any kind of handgun or pellet rifle based on that.

Sure,if it had a 24" barrel on it. :-)

[Drilling Man]

  What ---------> "PH" used a 7x57???  Are you talking about Bell??  Taylor?

  DM

[mcwoodduck]

 What ---------> "PH" used a 7x57???  Are you talking about Bell??  Taylor?

  DM

Bell used a 7X57 for Ivory.
He like that the ammo was cheap, the FMJ rounds got far enough in to kill the elephants and it was not the devistating brain shot that is practiced today for a fast kill.  Bell was after the Ivory and a round in the lungs was good enough to have the elephant trot off and die an hour or day later.  his gun bearer was never far off with a large bore rifle to stop any charge.
Much as guys here will talk about deer hunting with 22LR, 22mag, or some of the mild 223 center fire rifles like 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, and up intio the ealy 25-20, 32-20 and others it will do the job.  Maybe not as well as 308 or 30-06 but the end result is still a dead deer.  
The 7X57,8X57, and 303 brit have taken every type of game all over the world.  Especally in Africa where the British Empire, the German Empire, and the South African Boers have used the three rounds extensivly.
The Cape Buffalo was shot for food and he did not pick out the big bulls.
There is a large difference between culling Elephant and shooting a Small Cow or bull for food and defending your life.
On that same note a 7X57 produces about the same muzzle energy of the 500 S&W.  and even the much malined 30-30 carbine has way more energy than the 44mag.
Wiht that said.  I would much rather have my 44 mag on my hip when doing camp chores or looking for a bush to water then have my rifle, shotgun, or camp cannon 5 feet away.  When in Griz country I usually keep a Marlin 95 loaded with hot rounds in camp we call the camp cannon.

[v-man]

The article was about a guy named Shelby who apparantly got this famous old rifle from the lengendary PH O'Rourke. He used some of the old Nycad (sp?) solids on almost everything back when the smaller calibers were still legal. And who is the clown calling me a troll. That may be the most mis-informed comment I've ever seen on this site. How can using a bit of sarcasm to make a point that actually agrees with the majority of posts in this thread be indicative of a troll?
Some of you guys really make it hard to enjoy these discussions.

[Oldshooter]

The article was about a guy named Shelby who apparantly got this famous old rifle from the lengendary PH O'Rourke. He used some of the old Nycad (sp?) solids on almost everything back when the smaller calibers were still legal. And who is the clown calling me a troll. That may be the most mis-informed comment I've ever seen on this site. How can using a bit of sarcasm to make a point that actually agrees with the majority of posts in this thread be indicative of a troll?
Some of you guys really make it hard to enjoy these discussions.

Seems like a little ole' Griz would be easy with just about any kind of handgun or pellet rifle based on that.

I'M THE ONE WHO SAID TROLL ALERT, CLOWN! After all wasnt it a tongue in cheek response?  It was a joke, you could tell because of the smiley face after it, after all the post was "out there" ya think! Learn to understand what you read and maybe ya wont be so offended!

[Drilling Man]

  First of all, Bell was a poacher, just like Taylor ect...  They did what they wanted because there was no one to control them.  They shot big game and some they never recovered, some they recovered days or weeks later.  There were so mant ele around, they believed it was impossible to run out of them.

  As for Shelby, just like above it was in a time when folks did what they wanted, and the animals were completely different then.  The ele would stand around and let the hunters get 20 feet away...

  A woman killed a BIG brown bear in Alaska with one head shot from her 22lr, but i bet no one would go bear hunting with a 22 today.

  I've hunted and killed big game with a 7x57, in it's place it's a great round.  I've also spend huge amounts of time hunting brown bears, i've shot a few too, but when i hunt them i want something bigger in my hands.

  DM

[SHOOTALL]

 What ---------> "PH" used a 7x57???  Are you talking about Bell??  Taylor?

  DM

Bell used a 7X57 for Ivory.
He like that the ammo was cheap, the FMJ rounds got far enough in to kill the elephants and it was not the devistating brain shot that is practiced today for a fast kill.  Bell was after the Ivory and a round in the lungs was good enough to have the elephant trot off and die an hour or day later.  his gun bearer was never far off with a large bore rifle to stop any charge.
Much as guys here will talk about deer hunting with 22LR, 22mag, or some of the mild 223 center fire rifles like 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, and up intio the ealy 25-20, 32-20 and others it will do the job.  Maybe not as well as 308 or 30-06 but the end result is still a dead deer.  
The 7X57,8X57, and 303 brit have taken every type of game all over the world.  Especally in Africa where the British Empire, the German Empire, and the South African Boers have used the three rounds extensivly.
The Cape Buffalo was shot for food and he did not pick out the big bulls.
There is a large difference between culling Elephant and shooting a Small Cow or bull for food and defending your life.
On that same note a 7X57 produces about the same muzzle energy of the 500 S&W.  and even the much malined 30-30 carbine has way more energy than the 44mag.
Wiht that said.  I would much rather have my 44 mag on my hip when doing camp chores or looking for a bush to water then have my rifle, shotgun, or camp cannon 5 feet away.  When in Griz country I usually keep a Marlin 95 loaded with hot rounds in camp we call the camp cannon.

I have read many books abot Bell and only on sites like this is the idea that he shot game in the lungs suggested. The 7X57 and 6.5 were used because ammo was aval. when other ammo was not . Also Bell had a larger rifle but seldom used it.

[SHOOTALL]

I just read my latest American Rifleman and it tells all about one of the "greatest"" PH's in Africa and all the elephants and buffalo he killed with only a 7X57. Seems like a little ole' Griz would be easy with just about any kind of handgun or pellet rifle based on that.

TROLL ALERT !!!         

I would suggest if the shooter was well versed in the atnaomy of the bear and could place a perfect shot on a non arroused bear the 7X57 would work well. There was a native American girl who killed one of the largest grizz's taken with a 22 long rifle. The use of larger rounds is insurance needed to stop an enraged bear.

[SHOOTALL]

  What ---------> "PH" used a 7x57???  Are you talking about Bell??  Taylor?

  DM

The authors daughter killed the dumbo with it in the 60's befor a min. was set on cal.

[Drilling Man]

 What ---------> "PH" used a 7x57???  Are you talking about Bell??  Taylor?

  DM

Bell used a 7X57 for Ivory.
He like that the ammo was cheap, the FMJ rounds got far enough in to kill the elephants and it was not the devistating brain shot that is practiced today for a fast kill.  Bell was after the Ivory and a round in the lungs was good enough to have the elephant trot off and die an hour or day later.  his gun bearer was never far off with a large bore rifle to stop any charge.
Much as guys here will talk about deer hunting with 22LR, 22mag, or some of the mild 223 center fire rifles like 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, and up intio the ealy 25-20, 32-20 and others it will do the job.  Maybe not as well as 308 or 30-06 but the end result is still a dead deer.  
The 7X57,8X57, and 303 brit have taken every type of game all over the world.  Especally in Africa where the British Empire, the German Empire, and the South African Boers have used the three rounds extensivly.
The Cape Buffalo was shot for food and he did not pick out the big bulls.
There is a large difference between culling Elephant and shooting a Small Cow or bull for food and defending your life.
On that same note a 7X57 produces about the same muzzle energy of the 500 S&W.  and even the much malined 30-30 carbine has way more energy than the 44mag.
Wiht that said.  I would much rather have my 44 mag on my hip when doing camp chores or looking for a bush to water then have my rifle, shotgun, or camp cannon 5 feet away.  When in Griz country I usually keep a Marlin 95 loaded with hot rounds in camp we call the camp cannon.

I have read many books abot Bell and only on sites like this is the idea that he shot game in the lungs suggested. The 7X57 and 6.5 were used because ammo was aval. when other ammo was not . Also Bell had a larger rifle but seldom used it.

  If you read much on Bell, then you MUST of read that he kept detailed records of his cost, and it irritated him that the ammo for the bigger gun cost him a lot more than for the little gun.

  On another site, there's a writer doing detailed research on Bell.  He has been in contact with the family, and has MUCH info on Bell.  He is writeing Bells story, and has posted much of what he has found out.  I haven't seen a post from him in a while, but some time ago there was a LONG post about Bell and his hunting.

  Bell was a poacher, and it was all about money.  He was also one of the finest game shots there has ever been, so it has much more to do about "that", than what rifle he carried.

  DM

[bilmac]

I saw a fairly new model pickup the other day. The guy had used about half of his endgate to write out in big block letters" Better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it." Man I love the place I live. Anyhow, this applies to handguns for bear protection doesn't it?

[mrussel]

I saw a fairly new model pickup the other day. The guy had used about half of his endgate to write out in big block letters" Better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it." Man I love the place I live. Anyhow, this applies to handguns for bear protection doesn't it?

 Ive read some of the reasoning behind the suggestion that bear spray is a better idea than a big gun for defense against bears. It strikes me as biased based on an anti-gun agenda. Pepper spray has a lot of advantages for self defense. Still,police carry pepper spray,tasers AND handguns,and keep a shotgun in the car. Whenever I look up information on bear spray I see all sorts of strained reasoning about how a gun is only going to make things worse and how bear spray will smite the shaggy beast like the hand of God. I have to agree with the poster that suggested that your not going to be able to "trigger the flee response" in a bear that's protecting its young for instance.

 I used to have a cat and she had kittens one time. We left her with our neighbors,who we later discovered was abusive to animals (had I known,I would have never left her and the kittens with them,later they got a dog,a larger breed and locked it in a 4x6" cage in the back yard and beat it when it would not behave) We came back and the grandmother had deep bites and 1/4" deep scratches all over her leg. We could not find one of the kittens,and they were very defensive about it,until we insisted. We found it cowering under a dresser,claws dug into the floor ,and refusing to come out. Its pretty clear what happened. They did something to the kitten. Maybe it hissed or bit when it wanted to be put down or something. The mother was not happy about it and probably came over to help and the old lady probably tried to kick the mother cat,and the cat apparently decided to jump,dig in the claws and start biting and scratching.

 The moral of that story is,this was a very friendly house cat,and most cats have an instinct that when attacked or threatened by something big,they run and hide. Throw kittens into the mix,and she tried to take the old woman's leg off.  You would not think a 6Lb (yes,she only weight SIX pounds,she was very small) house cat could do very much damage,but it was quite severe and required a trip to the ER. Just the amount of blood was rather shocking. (They chased her into a room and called animal control who came out after we had her back,and when she saw the friendly little purring six pound tabby cat,she asked "What did they do to her?" She did say it was the first cat bite call she had ever responded too. Cat bite wasn't really a good description though. It was more like a cat mauling)

  Now think of a 500Lb predator defender her young. No amount of pepper spray is going to trigger a flee response. The more dangerous you seem,the more shes going to try to kill you. She KNOWS how this works. You driver her off,then you eat her children. Shes not going to stop until one of you is dead.

 My opinion is,bear spray is great. Everyone should have it. Just like the police officer that carries multiple options to use on a BG however,you should have another option in case the bear spray does not work,or if the situation is such that it just wont work. Suppose you stumble across one and the rain is being driven by gail force winds right into your face. I seem to remember some sage advice I heard somewhere about streams of liquid being sprayed directly into the oncoming wind.

[SHOOTALL]

 What ---------> "PH" used a 7x57???  Are you talking about Bell??  Taylor?

  DM

Bell used a 7X57 for Ivory.
He like that the ammo was cheap, the FMJ rounds got far enough in to kill the elephants and it was not the devistating brain shot that is practiced today for a fast kill.  Bell was after the Ivory and a round in the lungs was good enough to have the elephant trot off and die an hour or day later.  his gun bearer was never far off with a large bore rifle to stop any charge.
Much as guys here will talk about deer hunting with 22LR, 22mag, or some of the mild 223 center fire rifles like 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, and up intio the ealy 25-20, 32-20 and others it will do the job.  Maybe not as well as 308 or 30-06 but the end result is still a dead deer.  
The 7X57,8X57, and 303 brit have taken every type of game all over the world.  Especally in Africa where the British Empire, the German Empire, and the South African Boers have used the three rounds extensivly.
The Cape Buffalo was shot for food and he did not pick out the big bulls.
There is a large difference between culling Elephant and shooting a Small Cow or bull for food and defending your life.
On that same note a 7X57 produces about the same muzzle energy of the 500 S&W.  and even the much malined 30-30 carbine has way more energy than the 44mag.
Wiht that said.  I would much rather have my 44 mag on my hip when doing camp chores or looking for a bush to water then have my rifle, shotgun, or camp cannon 5 feet away.  When in Griz country I usually keep a Marlin 95 loaded with hot rounds in camp we call the camp cannon.

I have read many books abot Bell and only on sites like this is the idea that he shot game in the lungs suggested. The 7X57 and 6.5 were used because ammo was aval. when other ammo was not . Also Bell had a larger rifle but seldom used it.

  If you read much on Bell, then you MUST of read that he kept detailed records of his cost, and it irritated him that the ammo for the bigger gun cost him a lot more than for the little gun.

  On another site, there's a writer doing detailed research on Bell.  He has been in contact with the family, and has MUCH info on Bell.  He is writeing Bells story, and has posted much of what he has found out.  I haven't seen a post from him in a while, but some time ago there was a LONG post about Bell and his hunting.

  Bell was a poacher, and it was all about money.  He was also one of the finest game shots there has ever been, so it has much more to do about "that", than what rifle he carried.

  DM

Robin hood was both a poacher and good shot also. In Africa at the time he hunted he was one of few who had been able to work with the locals. As much from fear as respect . Can you compare the term poaching as used today to his world ? I see it as nothing bigger that the bever trapping or buff slaughter . Please post on the guy doing the work on Bell I would like to read it.

[mcwoodduck]

 What ---------> "PH" used a 7x57???  Are you talking about Bell??  Taylor?

  DM

Bell used a 7X57 for Ivory.
He like that the ammo was cheap, the FMJ rounds got far enough in to kill the elephants and it was not the devistating brain shot that is practiced today for a fast kill.  Bell was after the Ivory and a round in the lungs was good enough to have the elephant trot off and die an hour or day later.  his gun bearer was never far off with a large bore rifle to stop any charge.
Much as guys here will talk about deer hunting with 22LR, 22mag, or some of the mild 223 center fire rifles like 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, and up intio the ealy 25-20, 32-20 and others it will do the job.  Maybe not as well as 308 or 30-06 but the end result is still a dead deer.  
The 7X57,8X57, and 303 brit have taken every type of game all over the world.  Especally in Africa where the British Empire, the German Empire, and the South African Boers have used the three rounds extensivly.
The Cape Buffalo was shot for food and he did not pick out the big bulls.
There is a large difference between culling Elephant and shooting a Small Cow or bull for food and defending your life.
On that same note a 7X57 produces about the same muzzle energy of the 500 S&W.  and even the much malined 30-30 carbine has way more energy than the 44mag.
Wiht that said.  I would much rather have my 44 mag on my hip when doing camp chores or looking for a bush to water then have my rifle, shotgun, or camp cannon 5 feet away.  When in Griz country I usually keep a Marlin 95 loaded with hot rounds in camp we call the camp cannon.

I have read many books abot Bell and only on sites like this is the idea that he shot game in the lungs suggested. The 7X57 and 6.5 were used because ammo was aval. when other ammo was not . Also Bell had a larger rifle but seldom used it.

I went through an African Phase for a while and read Capstick, Taylor, Bunny Allen, Ruarke, and Boddington.  For some reason I took away that Taylor and Bell both used as small of a rifle as possible to take Ivory and for food.  They kept the big bore close in case of a charge.  Maybe it was Taylor that was shooting Elephants in the lungs and recovering them later and Bell was the Mafia Don of Killing elephants with a small caliber behind the ear.  Using the smaller calibers may be a reason Taylor wanted a KO factor in a CTG.  Gave him some time to get the big bore onto the elephant and being able to stop them quickly if they turned from the small caliber.  Not sure.  But Bell and Taylor were the buffalo hunters of Africa.  Shoot as many as possible and claim what was worth anything on the body and move on using as few resources as possible.  7X57 is a great round and there was pleanty of it around when Bell was Hunting.  Had it been 303 Brit, 8X57, 30-06, or 6.5X54 Manlicher that was cheaper he would have used it as long as it did the job.  I know we would all like to hear of him using a SXS rifle in a classic British or European round but with the price of Ivory and the time needed he never would have made any money and that was the end game.  Get as many Elephants with Ivory on the ground as easily and cheaply as possible.

[SHOOTALL]

It is written he in fact used a 6.5 manlincher for alot of them.

[bilmac]

Back to the original question, whether or not to carry a handgun when hunting in grizz country, I just got back from a moose hunt where the Forest Service says the grizzlies are found. I didn't take a handgun. We were sleeping in a tent and I was using one of the new style mummy bags that has draw strings to close the top down to shut out drafts. The first night I took my 45-70 in the tent and laid it beside my bed and then I got to thinking. Bears do attack people in tents and they don't unzip the door and go inside. Instead they jump on the tent and then I presume they start slapping and biting anything that moves. So how much good would my 45-70 do me in an environment under a collapsed tent with a grizz on top, and tent poles mixed up in the mess, with me in a sleeping bag that normally takes 3 or 4 minutes of fiddling before I can even get an arm free.

My buddy is one of those guys that figures that nothing bad ever happens so he hadn't brought a gun in the tent, but he had brought a 45 Colts on the trip and was leaving it in the truck. The next night I harassed him into bringing his 6 shooter into the tent and putting it where he could find it in the dark.

[Drilling Man]

Bears do attack people in tents and they don't unzip the door and go inside. Instead they jump on the tent and then I presume they start slapping and biting anything that moves.

  That's not what i've experienced.  From what i see, they claw a hole in the tent and come through the hole.  I've also had them walk so close they brushed on the tent, but not try and get in.

  It's really all about where the food they want/smell, is at.  (or has been)

  DM

[ole 5 hole group]

I've watched 2 videos that were made specifically to see what happens when brown bears stumble into a camp.  On each video the big bears pounced on the tent and seemed to smash every “lump” down with their front paws.  They bite into most items and seemed to try to get into everything within camp.    

My experience with black bears is they will rip a tent up pretty good and will also rip up a pop-up camper getting into it.  They make a mess of everything.  If you have a full gas can in camp when they come calling – you won’t have a full one when they leave, as they also bite and put a claw or two into everything if they can’t get it open.  

Never had any trouble with them trying to get into the tent at night with us in it.  Unless you have food in the tent, I would think the snoring would keep them at arm’s length.  We now use a bear fence and I’ve never heard of a black bear walking through one.

If one would ever find themselves under an attack while in a tent, I think it would be beneficial to have the firearm tied to your sleeping bag, so you could pull on the cord and retrieve your weapon.  Getting it into action might take a little doing as well.  Having a plan is a must but being able to adapt to the situation when everything goes to hell in a hand basket is what will carry the day providing Lady Luck doesn’t take a hike on ya.        

[mrussel]

I've watched 2 videos that were made specifically to see what happens when brown bears stumble into a camp.  On each video the big bears pounced on the tent and seemed to smash every “lump” down with their front paws.  They bite into most items and seemed to try to get into everything within camp.    

My experience with black bears is they will rip a tent up pretty good and will also rip up a pop-up camper getting into it.  They make a mess of everything.  If you have a full gas can in camp when they come calling – you won’t have a full one when they leave, as they also bite and put a claw or two into everything if they can’t get it open.  

Never had any trouble with them trying to get into the tent at night with us in it.  Unless you have food in the tent, I would think the snoring would keep them at arm’s length.  We now use a bear fence and I’ve never heard of a black bear walking through one.

If one would ever find themselves under an attack while in a tent, I think it would be beneficial to have the firearm tied to your sleeping bag, so you could pull on the cord and retrieve your weapon.  Getting it into action might take a little doing as well.  Having a plan is a must but being able to adapt to the situation when everything goes to hell in a hand basket is what will carry the day providing Lady Luck doesn’t take a hike on ya.        

So what your saying is,if my girl and I go camping, we shouldn't rub each other down with bacon grease before bed?

[ole 5 hole group]

So what your saying is,if my girl and I go camping, we shouldn't rub each other down with bacon grease before bed?

I didn't go so far as to say that - sounds like maybe you've found the "breakfast for champions".

[SHOOTALL]

Tell me we are still talking guns 

[mrussel]

So what your saying is,if my girl and I go camping, we shouldn't rub each other down with bacon grease before bed?

I didn't go so far as to say that - sounds like maybe you've found the "breakfast for champions".

 That and a little oregano will certainly give the phrase "Well seasoned outdoors-man" a new meaning.