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Offline gatersb

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Paper patching 45/70
« on: July 19, 2010, 11:53:23 AM »
Hey guys just got thru reading paul matthews book "the paper jacket" and was wondering if any of you have tried paper patching with a handi or the 45/70.  Thinking about getting started and wondering if i need to throat the barrel or not.  I'm not sure if its just alot of work for very little gain or would it be fun to do.  Oh well any info is welcome
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Offline petemi

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 12:01:19 PM »
Paul Matthews is among my heros.  "40 Years with the .45-70."  I never tried paper patching, but I'm just beginning reloading.  I may well try it.

Pete
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Offline gatersb

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 12:38:49 PM »
same here about mr. matthews i also have just started reloading as well. 
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Offline rhbrink

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 01:16:16 PM »
I have done a bit of paper patching mostly for a old over bore Russian got it to work pretty good after a lot of work and help from the guys over on castboolits.gunloads.com. I would think the 45-70 would be a natural and should be able to use the existing chamber just fine. I know that a lot of guys use a .451 - .452 pistol bullet patch that up to your groove size  load her up and blast away. Don't know what you are trying to acheive but would give the castboolits a serious look they have two forums devoted to the paperpatch.
Good luck
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Offline gendoc

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 01:33:24 PM »
i've patched a few in my sharps... and its has nice results. never dida handi before.
i like the way mine shoots with my jacketed handloads.
one day, when i grow up......i'm gunna try patch'n my 120 !!! :o  ;)
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 05:52:47 PM »
I've tried them quite a few times. You can use the stock throat, but it's easier to extend it about .200

I sized to .452 and used Seth Cole 8 lb tracing paper. It's good and strong:

http://www.modernss.com/shopping/family_sale_0_familyid_3585_cat_226

Lube the patched bullet with a light wipe (a little on your finger) of SPG lube or Rooster Jacket.

Paul Matthew's book is a great source.



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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 06:09:54 PM »
Just a question, not a bash...

Are you wanting this for the novelty of trying it?  What's to be gained with the extra processing time and complexity over Liquid Alox or modern jackets or gas checks?  I had heard of this, but only thought it was being done for reproduction groups.  That's why I'm curious.  8)
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Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline Nobade

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 02:56:59 AM »
45-70 works incredibly well with paper patch and smokeless powder. How about 300gr. bullets cast from nearly pure lead at 2000 fps, no leading, and 3 inch groups at 200M? Besides, you can even get the right size dies with no effort. Size bullets to .452 in a Lee push through sizer, patch with 10# drafting vellum, size with .459 push through sizer, load and shoot. No gas checks needed, no bullet lube, and as soft an alloy as you feel like. I'm a convert!
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Offline gatersb

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 05:24:03 AM »
You are correct i'm thinking of doing this for the novelty of it and the history behind paper patching.  No bashing on your part i understand your logic that is what is keeping me from trying it( more work for same results)  Also when i go to the range i was looking for a little wow factor not to mention i love to tinker and this doesnt involve me having to get someone to fix what i have broken :)  I will check out the guys at castboolits and possibly try it out.  Thanks for the input.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 07:34:37 AM »
Also, check the guys at Shiloh and BPCR:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

http://www.bpcr.net/forum/


There's a ton of paper patchers over there.


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Offline OSOK

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 08:52:47 AM »
Give Montana Bullet Works a look. Lot's of good info there, and you can buy bullets already patched to see if you like them.
I want to try a 500 gr. PP going as fast as I can before I start to flinch.
As to the questions of why, I like the idea of being to shoot pure soft lead at jacketed bullet velocities...and the reports of silver-dollar sized expansion and complete lengthwise pass-through's don't hurt either!
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2010, 02:49:18 PM »
Quote from: gatersb on July 20, 2010, 05:24:03 AM
You are correct i'm thinking of doing this for the novelty of it and the history behind paper patching.  No bashing on your part i understand your logic that is what is keeping me from trying it( more work for same results)  Also when i go to the range i was looking for a little wow factor not to mention i love to tinker and this doesnt involve me having to get someone to fix what i have broken :)  I will check out the guys at castboolits and possibly try it out.  Thanks for the input.

Ah, ok.  I had seen that several manufacturer's still made the molds, just didn't know why they were used.  I am getting 2400+ fps from my $16 a box Hornady Interlock Jacketed HP's and shooting .75" (best single group to date) up to 1.25" groups at 100 yards, but I haven't played with too many different leads yet.  The couple I have tried were poor on performance, so I am ordering some gas checked and if it was better I might try this for lead only.  Will have to do some more research.  8)

***edit*** hmm might let me use the same leads in my .45 Colt and .45-70 also!  Now that could be worthwhile.  ;)
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Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline gatersb

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2010, 04:07:38 PM »
wow .75" group hell i know i cant shoot well enough to ever get a group like that.  My hat is off to you sir.  Yeah i've been thinking that jacketed bullets with 3031 for all of them might be easier and more cost effective.  Oh well still might try to develop some cast bullet loads.
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2010, 04:59:58 PM »
Quote from: gatersb on July 20, 2010, 04:07:38 PM
wow .75" group hell i know i cant shoot well enough to ever get a group like that.  My hat is off to you sir.  Yeah i've been thinking that jacketed bullets with 3031 for all of them might be easier and more cost effective.  Oh well still might try to develop some cast bullet loads.

Thank you.  If I breath right I can do it.  This was my best group on my 2nd to last outing using the Interlock HP from Hornady.  The flier was called and I re-shot the 3 are touching edge to edge.  It might be a mite over 3/4", but pretty close.  I had a good showing like this from 46.7 gr. RL7 with the Hornady FTX bullets for the .45-70 also.  They are about 12 dollars more a box though and a little harder to load straight, because they have a sharp bottom flat.  I'm loading using the Lee Hand Press Kit, so if I wiggle at all, they tend to cant as they go into the press.  Hopefully, by the end of the year, I'll have a Breechlock with quick interchange collets.  My friend is using this and with his .22-250, .25-06 and .270 is down to .375" group at 100 and only 1.25" at 300.  He was banging the 500m 9 times outta 10 last trip to the range, but he uses big fancy scopes on expensive bolt actions on sand bags and I'm using my buffalo classic with the factory sights and leaning on my elbows.  I'm hoping to get a tang sight mounted soon though or a barrel mounted ladder sight.  I also saw my groups tighten up with I started weighing my bullets and placing them into groups of +/- .5 gr.  I also clean out the insides of the case with a used up bore brush that still works good for this and I length size every case every time.  I weigh every powder charge and then weigh all the loaded rounds and shoot them in groups based on weight.  I shot ladders from 43gr. RL7 to 52gr. RL7 and then re-laddered in .1 gr increments above and below .5gr of the best groups.  I also try to shoot groups in light wind and with the wind to my back.  With the lead rounds I have tried the best group I have attained was 3" at 100 yards.  This is ok, but my long term goal is to do some longer range shooting and this doesn't cut it at 4-500 yards.  I reload for my New Model Blackhawk Convertible in .45 Colt/.45 ACP also and have been improving.  I use many of the same rounds in my .45 Colt BC too, but some of the ones in the BC are reloaded specifically for the carbine with RL7.


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Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline nicholst55

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2010, 05:47:11 PM »
I don't know if you're planning to load smokeless or black powder with your paper patched bullets.  Smokeless you patch to groove diameter; black you patch to BORE diameter (or maybe a little over), so you need to start with a bullet about .446-.448" diameter, depending on what paper you're using.  The reason for the difference is that there has to be room for the BP fouling to go.  If you patch to groove diameter for black powder, you'll likely only get 1-2 shots before the next round won't chamber.

BPCR loading is a separate subject in its own right, and I'm just getting started.

BTW, I recently corresponded with Buffalo Arms Company about paper patching for a Buffalo Classic, and they advised me that I won't get the best accuracy with the factory chamber, as it's cut with a 45 degree throat angle; ideally a chamber cut for PP bullets will have an angle of about 12 degrees.  Some folks are getting excellent accuracy with a standard chamber, some aren't.
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2010, 06:00:07 PM »
Quote
I don't know if you're planning to load smokeless or black powder with your paper patched bullets.  Smokeless you patch to groove diameter; black you patch to BORE diameter (or maybe a little over), so you need to start with a bullet about .446-.448" diameter, depending on what paper you're using.  The reason for the difference is that there has to be room for the BP fouling to go.  If you patch to groove diameter for black powder, you'll likely only get 1-2 shots before the next round won't chamber.

BPCR loading is a separate subject in its own right, and I'm just getting started.

BTW, I recently corresponded with Buffalo Arms Company about paper patching for a Buffalo Classic, and they advised me that I won't get the best accuracy with the factory chamber, as it's cut with a 45 degree throat angle; ideally a chamber cut for PP bullets will have an angle of about 12 degrees.  Some folks are getting excellent accuracy with a standard chamber, some aren't.

Good info, thanks 8)  I guess if I cannot share the bullets wouldn't gain me much. ;)
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Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2010, 04:22:11 AM »
Tacklebury - go over to Westernbullet.com and look at the SAECO 21A. It's a 410 gr gas checked bullet. I get great results out of it with Varget in my BC.
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2010, 05:01:32 PM »
Quote from: kevinsmith5 on July 21, 2010, 04:22:11 AM
Tacklebury - go over to Westernbullet.com and look at the SAECO 21A. It's a 410 gr gas checked bullet. I get great results out of it with Varget in my BC.

Thanks, Kevin.  Will check it out.  8)

So with gas check it's the 21AG right?

Sorry one more edit...  Have you reamed the throat on your BC?  I intend to do so, but haven't as of yet.  I am still having to be really careful to check bullet seating depth very carefully and often seating out past the crimp groove.  I got a Lee Factory Crimp die, so it hasn't been too bad, but I just wondered if you had issues seating this bullet to avoid touching the rifling?
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Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2010, 05:56:23 PM »
Yes, 21AG.  Love it, wish I could find a mould myself. Live in fear of Western no longer having it when I run low....
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Offline gatersb

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Re: Paper patching 45/70
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2010, 03:21:11 AM »
planning on using smokeless powder easier to come by around here and one less variable to deal with for the moment
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