Author Topic: 35 Remington/35 Whelen (Read 1923 times)

trotterlg · « **on:** July 19, 2010, 07:48:01 PM »

I have chambered a few Handi barrels in 35 Remington and have never heard of a FTF in this chambering. Why would the 35 Whelen have this problem when the 35 Remington doesn't? The 35 Remington has an even smaler sholder thant the Whelan has, (I think), so why would there be so much troble with one and not the other? Larry

Sourdough · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2010, 08:22:26 PM »

I have often wondered that very same question. Expecially since the Whelen is using the 30-06 case necked up to .35 cal. Seems like if the Whelen is having so much problems the 30-06 should be having the same problem. My 30-06s work perfectly and have never failed to fire.

Nobade · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2010, 02:51:10 AM »

Could be the way the reloading dies or factory ammo are made. If either is short that could cause the problem. I agree if everything fits properly it will work fine.

Swampman · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2010, 04:16:57 AM »

The .35 Remington does give a lot of trouble in the T/C Contender. I don't fool with the rimless cartridges in single shots.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2010, 04:49:47 AM »

If the firing pin is proper length, and the hammer has the proper weight spring; if the chamber and loads / reloads are within spec., then it will fire. No black magic involved. Some say lack of shoulder is the cause, but how does that explain the thousands of 35 whelens that do work, or the 375 Whelen, with even less shoulder? My money is on bad reloads, as I have seen it to often to discount. Amazing how many problems go away when shooters use factory ammo in a "problem" gun.

Larry

Ten Ring · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2010, 05:13:54 AM »

It's the factory cartridges that are the problem. My old Whelen will fire Remmington rounds about 30% of the time but will fire Federals 100% of the time. My new Whelen purchased last year will shoot anything I put in it. Fired from either gun re-loads work in either gun using Remmington primers.
Jim

bill439 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2010, 05:52:16 AM »

bigeasy got it right, if you maintain the correct headspace you should not have any problem. when reloading always make sure you're keeping the headspace correct, it is very easy to set the sholder back with some dies. Bill439

Sourdough · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:21:20 AM »

My Whelen shoots anything I put in it. Now I will admit when I first got it back in the mid 90s it had problems with Remington factory ammo. Sent it back to NEF and they fixed it. No problems since.

NFG · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:26:27 AM »

I think the blame is being put on the cartridge when the actual problem is something else or many somethings else. I've had FTF in my 45-120, 6mmBR and 17 FB but those were primer seating, scope contacting the hammer and sizer set too short...and Alzheimers

Hahahahahahahbummer.

Plus sometimes it is just not knowing or quite understanding how to solve some of the "normal" problems with single shot rifles and pistols...it takes time to learn the ideosyncrasies of the Handi platform.

Luck

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2010, 10:00:41 AM »

I have to agree, my latest bout with FTFs has been caused by off center pin strikes on CCI BR4 primers in the 6x45, center strikes on the same ammo using a different frame work fine, pin projection isn't relative since they both have ~.060" static, I did a little frame swap at the range yesterday to confirm this, all the ammo that wouldn't fire on the original frame even after multiple hits and rotating the round in the chamber, fired on the first hammer fall on the other frame. Did the same thing with CCI 250s on the 260 Rem, I think they're just too hard as I had several that wouldn't go even with center pins strikes of the replacement frame, those loads will be replicated with Rem 9½ mag primers because the loads that fired were very accurate.

Tim

Ten Ring · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2010, 12:21:19 PM »

It's not just a H&R problem, ask the many people in Mississippi who have purchased other brands.
Jim

NFG · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2010, 03:03:15 PM »

Some of the problem is in the inertia firing pin system...it isn't a positive strike...and how the hammer gets it's impetus or energy. Doesn't take much in the way of hard primers or hammer slowdown to cause a FTF. When you lighten the trigger pull you lighten the hammer fall. Maybe a heavier firing pin or lighter hammer, or a combination of the two, would increase the inertia on one and speed on the other and overcome the FTF's....or maybe a re-engineering of the whole system.

The inertia firing pin system is one way to keep people from shearing off firing pins...possibly increasing the length of the firing pin to make it positive system and a rebounding hammer ala T/C. The OEM system is about the cheapest method of doing it.

Luck

billy_56081 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2010, 03:28:56 PM »

Bad reloads? Wouldn't it be bad dies? The only bad reloads I have ever had were to long to chamber where I did not fully size them. If you are reloading ammo that has the shoulder pushed back to far to cause headspacing issues it is either a die problem or chamber problem. If I had a whelen that was misfiring I would try to stop the problem by using a progressivly thicker feeler gauge beween the full length die and she holder until I discovered the true headspace.

carbineman · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2010, 03:48:01 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on July 20, 2010, 10:00:41 AM

I have to agree, my latest bout with FTFs has been caused by off center pin strikes on CCI BR4 primers in the 6x45, center strikes on the same ammo using a different frame work fine, pin projection isn't relative since they both have ~.060" static, I did a little frame swap at the range yesterday to confirm this, all the ammo that wouldn't fire on the original frame even after multiple hits and rotating the round in the chamber, fired on the first hammer fall on the other frame. Did the same thing with CCI 250s on the 260 Rem, I think they're just too hard as I had several that wouldn't go even with center pins strikes of the replacement frame, those loads will be replicated with Rem 9½ mag primers because the loads that fired were very accurate.

Tim

Tim, The Rem 9 1/2M primer was the answer for me with the handi/topper platform and it is now all that I use. When I first had my .308, the rifle had many FTF problems with reloads using CCI 250's. I now use just Rem 9 1/2M's and have many of the same lot # in stock after seeing how well they worked in all my H&R/NEF rifles. BTW I use all ball type powders.

I have some CCI 250's left that get used in Savage and Browning rifle reloading with no problems.

Ten Ring · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2010, 04:03:38 PM »

I agree the ftf's can be corrected for each type of problem by handloading which I do. But when you buy a rifle that want fire factory ammunition made by the parent company and they have no clue how to remedy this it just isn't right.
Jim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2010, 04:28:38 PM »

Quote from: carbineman on July 20, 2010, 03:48:01 PM

Tim, The Rem 9 1/2M primer was the answer for me with the handi/topper platform and it is now all that I use. When I first had my .308, the rifle had many FTF problems with reloads using CCI 250's. I now use just Rem 9 1/2M's and have many of the same lot # in stock after seeing how well they worked in all my H&R/NEF rifles. BTW I use all ball type powders.

I have some CCI 250's left that get used in Savage and Browning rifle reloading with no problems.

Thanks, that's good to know, wish I had more or em, I only have a couple hundred and no one here has any, same with the Rem 7½ that I'd like to use in the 6x45. $:-\$

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2010, 04:30:06 PM »

Quote from: Ten Ring on July 20, 2010, 04:03:38 PM

I agree the ftf's can be corrected for each type of problem by handloading which I do. But when you buy a rifle that want fire factory ammunition made by the parent company and they have no clue how to remedy this it just isn't right.
Jim

It's a double whammy when the mfr of the rifle makes the ammo too, and they can't make it work.

Tim

mauser98us · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2010, 05:22:30 PM »

If one handloads, it's really a non-issue. One could seat the bullet into the lands.neck size,partial size,experiment with primers, so on and so forth. I think on the NEF rifle the only solution other than not produce them maybe to hold the chambers to a SAMMI minimum dimension. This is probably not a viable solution either due to the fact that reamer life would be short.

yooper77 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2010, 05:27:30 PM »

I have for many years smoked the case neck and shoulder areas in order to not push the shoulder back too far when sizing.

I feel this is a exclusive NEF Handi problem, because I have loaded rimless cartridges for the T/C Encore and have had zero headspace issues to include the 338-06 and 35 Whelen. I make both of these from 30-06 Springfield brass and I have never needed to adjust my dies any different than the normal instructions.

I do this with 223 Remington, 243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington and I use 308 Winchester brass for the later. I use Redding, RCBS and Hornady rifle dies.

I also hand load using the same techniques for my Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight in 338-06 A-Square.

yooper77

nicholst55 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2010, 05:56:14 PM »

I don't have a dog in this fight; my only NEF/H&Rs are a Tracker II, a Sportster, and a Buffalo Classic; all work just fine (so far). My one .35 Whelen is a bolt gun - a rebarreled Mark X Whitworth Mauser. I'm wondering if Remington may have cut the chambers too deep in their Whelen barrels. By 'too deep,' I mean on the generous side of the 'Go' dimension.

That, combined with some of the other issues mentioned - sizing die adjustment, poorly seated primers, inertia firing pin, poorly fitted transfer bars, marginal firing pin protrusion, tolerance stacking, off-center hits, etc., could well be combining to cause these problems.

Something to think about, anyway.

wreckhog · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2010, 06:21:46 PM »

Quote from: yooper77 on July 20, 2010, 05:27:30 PM

I have for many years smoked the case neck and shoulder areas in order to not push the shoulder back too far when sizing.

I feel this is a exclusive NEF Handi problem, because I have loaded rimless cartridges for the T/C Encore and have had zero headspace issues to include the 338-06 and 35 Whelen. I make both of these from 30-06 Springfield brass and I have never needed to adjust my dies any different than the normal instructions.

I do this with 223 Remington, 243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington and I use 308 Winchester brass for the later. I use Redding, RCBS and Hornady rifle dies.

I also hand load using the same techniques for my Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight in 338-06 A-Square.

yooper77

Most of those calibers work fine in the Handi. TC and CVA also made Whelens last year with mucho problems. Ruger did this year and is taking back all of them.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,208728.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,211282.msg1099129372.html#msg1099129372

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,197769.0.html

trotterlg · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2010, 06:47:16 PM »

We should probably clarify that the NEF does not have an inertia fireing pin. When the transfer bar is up and the hammer down, the fireing pin is positively displaced in it's forward position and only rectracts when the transfer bar falls when the trigger is released. With an intertia type pin, the pin is struck and driven forward and then "coasts" into the primer, then retracts. With the hammer down on an inertia pin, it does not protrude past the breach or bolt face. I think a good example of this is a Colt 1911. Larry

Mac11700 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2010, 07:36:14 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on July 19, 2010, 07:48:01 PM

I have chambered a few Handi barrels in 35 Remington and have never heard of a FTF in this chambering. Why would the 35 Whelen have this problem when the 35 Remington doesn't? The 35 Remington has an even smaler sholder thant the Whelan has, (I think), so why would there be so much troble with one and not the other? Larry

I have owned a few of the Whelens and can tell you that it isn't a 2 fold problem but indeed a 3 fold problem.

First..Remington has never produced any 35 Whelen factory ammo or brass that has been consistant in it's case diemensions. I went through almost 20 boxes of their loaded ammo and 10 bags of their brass before and all of it was out of spec.Some of the brass had such a degree of slope on the shoulder it produced nothing but FTF and the same when I tried neck sizing it for my 30-06 and 338-06. Same for any of their loaded ammo..one has only to look closely with a good magnifying glass comparing a good 30-06 case to see this.

Second darn few H&R's in this caliber ever had a decent chamber in it,almost every one was cut deeper than need be.

I suggest finding some federal factory ammo..I have found Federal doesn't have a case diemension issue and usually will work better than any of the Remington fodder. This won't help if the chamber is too deep..but you can hand load for it provided you know how too and you can find the ammo..people grab it up quickly when it hits dealers shelves and for good reason.

All of this is moot unlesss you actually know how the chamber is cut,and anyone who is having these types of issues should do a chamber cast and see exactyly what they are dealing with.

Third is some of the reloading dies are indeed pushing the shoulder back even when folks think they are set up correctly while using Remington brass. I have found if the Remington brass is reloaded and it's case shoulder/body junction is sized as in using a full length die,it will almost always change the shoulder angle enough to cause these same problems. So if you are going to neck size only then you need a true neck sizing die to use so this doesn't happen. Then use a bump die when you need to bump the shoulder back.

Some has been discussed on doing true neck sizing,when in fact that hasn't been the case at all..While smoking the necks is always a good idea..smoking the body where it meets the shoulder is also needed in this case.If the dies are sizing the brass at this junction any then the shoulder angle is most likely moved.Also.. If a Handi has .00150" frame barrel gap,then one needs to set the loading dies up to give this much for the case head to protrude.. this will ensure complete support against the breech face,provided the shoulder angle has not changed by resizing it incorrectly.This way you do not need to jam the bullet into the lands when loading target or hunting loads.Closing it is certainly harder,but in all my years of reloading for these rifles I have found that shutting these rifles hard is actually better than normally closing them or lightly closing them.If you have a weak latch spring or a rifle that isn't fitted good on the latch,this type of reloading is a real PITA since you have to do this every time,but it cqan be very rewarding if you take the time to do it.

Other than that..the Whelen is a great round and if the brass and chamber are correct will not normally give these bad of results,no matter who makes the rifle,Remingtons ammo or brass is a totally different story IMHO.

Mac

yooper77 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2010, 07:44:45 PM »

Quote from: wreckhog on July 20, 2010, 06:21:46 PM

Quote from: yooper77 on July 20, 2010, 05:27:30 PM
I have for many years smoked the case neck and shoulder areas in order to not push the shoulder back too far when sizing.

I feel this is a exclusive NEF Handi problem, because I have loaded rimless cartridges for the T/C Encore and have had zero headspace issues to include the 338-06 and 35 Whelen. I make both of these from 30-06 Springfield brass and I have never needed to adjust my dies any different than the normal instructions.

I do this with 223 Remington, 243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington and I use 308 Winchester brass for the later. I use Redding, RCBS and Hornady rifle dies.

I also hand load using the same techniques for my Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight in 338-06 A-Square.

yooper77

Most of those calibers work fine in the Handi. TC and CVA also made Whelens last year with mucho problems. Ruger did this year and is taking back all of them.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,208728.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,211282.msg1099129372.html#msg1099129372

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,197769.0.html

The T/C Encore I have seen was a flawless factory 35 Whelen barrel.

yooper77

briannmilewis · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:34:52 PM »

I would certainly like to know if anyone has had Whelen issues after using an RCBS X-Die as their only FL & neck resize die according to instructions?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:04:02 PM »

Quote from: briannmilewis on July 20, 2010, 08:34:52 PM

I would certainly like to know if anyone has had Whelen issues after using an RCBS X-Die as their only FL & neck resize die according to instructions?

Just a quick search on them

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4133543/1

Again these full length resize or you can adjust them to neck size,but how much they touch the body/shoulder area I don't know.

Mac

Sourdough · « **Reply #26 on:** July 20, 2010, 10:05:08 PM »

I use a set of Lee Dies for my Whelens. I full length resize everything. I use Winchester or CCI primers only. Have never had a Whelen reload round fail to fire.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 21, 2010, 12:27:07 AM »

Quote from: Sourdough on July 20, 2010, 10:05:08 PM

I use a set of Lee Dies for my Whelens. I full length resize everything. I use Winchester or CCI primers only. Have never had a Whelen reload round fail to fire.

You must have one of the few good chambers Rog..I've owned several and have yet to have a good one

Mac

yooper77 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:40:47 AM »

Quote from: briannmilewis on July 20, 2010, 08:34:52 PM

I would certainly like to know if anyone has had Whelen issues after using an RCBS X-Die as their only FL & neck resize die according to instructions?

I don’t mind trimming it’s an important part of hand loading, so the RCBS X-Die is not on my reloading bench. All my rifle cartridges are trimmed to approx .005” - .010” below maximum case length and I hardly find the need to re-trim every time I full length size. Yes, I do check each and every case after sizing, but then again that is hand loading.

By the way, the RCBS X-Die can be used for partial neck sizing but only without the X feature. I don’t believe RCBS has a dedicated neck sizing X-Die.

Additionally I don’t see the availability of the RCBS X-Die for the 35 Whelen.

Below is the instruction from the RCBS X-Die.
http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/XDieProductInstructions.pdf

PREPARING YOUR CASES
All cases must be sized and trimmed to the same overall length. For the best results, full-length resize each case and trim to .020” under maximum case length. This is a “one-time only” preparation of any and all cases to be used in the X-Sizer die.

yooper77

wreckhog · « **Reply #29 on:** July 21, 2010, 08:26:36 AM »

Quote from: yooper77 on July 20, 2010, 07:44:45 PM

Quote from: wreckhog on July 20, 2010, 06:21:46 PM
Quote from: yooper77 on July 20, 2010, 05:27:30 PM
I have for many years smoked the case neck and shoulder areas in order to not push the shoulder back too far when sizing.

I feel this is a exclusive NEF Handi problem, because I have loaded rimless cartridges for the T/C Encore and have had zero headspace issues to include the 338-06 and 35 Whelen. I make both of these from 30-06 Springfield brass and I have never needed to adjust my dies any different than the normal instructions.

I do this with 223 Remington, 243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington and I use 308 Winchester brass for the later. I use Redding, RCBS and Hornady rifle dies.

I also hand load using the same techniques for my Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight in 338-06 A-Square.

yooper77

Most of those calibers work fine in the Handi. TC and CVA also made Whelens last year with mucho problems. Ruger did this year and is taking back all of them.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,208728.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,211282.msg1099129372.html#msg1099129372

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,197769.0.html

The T/C Encore I have seen was a flawless factory 35 Whelen barrel.

yooper77

As the saying goes, one gotcha wipes out a thousand attaboys. These FTF's seem common to the cartridge even with factory loads. And not unique to H&R. Congrats on shooting a good one.