Author Topic: 45ACP for bear?? (Read 4966 times)

1911crazy · « **on:** November 29, 2003, 05:18:55 PM »

A friend of mine keeps on asking me if a 45acp is a good handgun for bear??? I told him no because of the lower energy when compared to the 44mag and larger calibers. I steered him more towards the 480 ruger.
BigBill

Robert · « **Reply #1 on:** November 29, 2003, 05:24:40 PM »

I am sure it has been done, but it is kinda like playing chicken with Tractor Trailors on the freeway.

TimWieneke · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2003, 03:21:55 AM »

OK Robert - we told you before. You gotta stop watching "Footloose".

Anyway, you didn't mention which species of bear. Was it black or griz? Not that the .45 is a great choice for either, but I was curious.

Tim

Mikey · « **Reply #3 on:** December 01, 2003, 03:55:28 AM »

BigBill: Buddy, you gave your friend good advice. A buncha years ago there was an article in one of the gun rags about using the 45 auto for black bear and even though the bear finally got killed it was one of the most unethical articles I've ever read.

You are right about the energy levels and penetrative capability of the 45 auto - it's fine for what it was designed for but it wasn't designed for bear, even smaller black bears. Maybe in a pinch for a defense and with the proper loads, but he would have to roll his own to get those and even then I wouldn't recommend it. My thoughts are that if you are going to hunt something, make sure you have the power levels to do it properly, whether handgun, rifle or shotgun.

BTW and off the topic, I logged into the Cosmic web-site and got some good pictures of Dudleyville. Man, sounds of the Twilight Zone, huh?.. Mikey.

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 01, 2003, 03:22:35 PM »

unquestionable under gunned, but in a defensive situation it beats the hell out of fingernails. alot of times the bang is enough to put them in their place. but it is what i carry when out and about when hunting season is closed. after seeing what it did to my rottwieler, i have alot more confidence in the 45 auto.

grendel · « **Reply #5 on:** December 01, 2003, 06:24:57 PM »

I would say it is better then a knife or finger nails against black bear. I will not speak for Griz though. Years ago before I bought my S&W 629 Mountain Gun or the BH 45LC. A Colt Gov model in 45 was what I carried most of the time when in the woods. I had Veral make up a 225g FP mold for me and loaded it hot = 950FPS. I felt pretty good with that.

Course I feel better with a 240-255g slug at 1300FPS now.

Grendel

eroyd · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2003, 12:07:47 PM »

I know of a fellow who shot a treed Black Bear with his 1911. He had to race home to get more ammo after emptying his 7 shot mag. It was apparently a bloody mess.

1911crazy · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2003, 03:51:24 AM »

I have to admit I carry my 45acp to ther outdoor plumbing at night we have had coyotes comeby. But I never thought of a bear coming by at night too? I always have my 357mag or my 44mag with me most of the time now. I'm even leaning towards a new Ruger Redhawk in 480 ruger too now for handgun hunting. Its not exactly the most powerful but its more controllable. You just never know what can pop up in the wilds? BigBill

BamBams · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2004, 06:47:25 AM »

I've hunted bear for an long time. I wouldn't even consider using a .45ACP. The only thing I can think of that is worse than a pissed off bear, is being stalked by a Mountain Lion. Let me give you a brief example of how tough a bear is:

One late night, a stupid neighbor of mine walked right into a bear on her front porch. She shot it in the hind quarters with a 12ga. Leaving a trail of blood everywhere, this bear then went on the look for more food on another neighbor's property - where it dined on Italian, Chinese, and baby food for 20 minutes.

Then it came over to my place, and not finding anymore food, but still leaving a nice blood trail, it meandered to parts unknown. The next morning, yet another neighbor, found it lying dead in a ditch near the highway. That neighbor lived about a mile from me.

My point is: Bears will ignore an awful lot of pain for a nice lunch!

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2004, 08:29:22 AM »

Been there done that,got bears hibernating here and a disturbed or wounded bear out there now,Scat about 3/4 inch and female.I have ONCE run into a charging bear with only a 1911 and I fired all 7 that were not necessary but the bear was down for the count.That is why I use the Marlin 450 ported M,afoot or ahorse,they usually drop with one.The bears that come through from Yo Semite are tagged as Bad Bears and they are use to humans ,I have no choice.

BamBams · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2004, 08:43:11 AM »

Same story here Intrepid. My property was right at the boundary to a state park where people feed and taunt the bears. They really DO become experts at opening trash containers and experiencing fine cuisine.

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2004, 08:51:20 AM »

And Chickin houses

1911WB · « **Reply #12 on:** February 14, 2004, 02:39:41 PM »

Although I love the .45 acp, I must agree that it is an excellent man-stopper, but definitely not for bear. When you absolutely, positively must destroy a bear with a pistol before it destroys you- .44 mag is the minimum I'd like to have. Of course, in such circumstances you go with what you've got!

tubbythetuba · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2004, 01:56:36 PM »

Not sayin', just thinking out loud: Since I do carry my Glock 45acp in the woods (well, I have the .41mag now, too) a fellow would be better off with the 230fmj because of the penetration, wouldn't he?

dla · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2004, 06:02:06 PM »

The problem with all handguns is that you have to learn how to shoot them. A black bear is a hard target to hit squarely. I don't think the .45acp is any more inferior than any other traditional "manstopper".

I think either a truncated cone or a standard semi-wadcutter are better choices than ball ammo.

mjb · « **Reply #15 on:** December 30, 2004, 10:08:48 AM »

I have carried my Colt Officers model loaded with Cor-Bon 185 gr +P Penetrator rounds in it when being out in the woods. However, I agree with all of you that it isn't the best caliber for wild pig or bear. For them in a handgun I prefer a 10mm or a >44 Magnum solid bullets.

Vern Humphrey · « **Reply #16 on:** December 31, 2004, 02:42:16 PM »

I had a black bear knock over a bee hive behind my house. I had a Kimber loaded with 230-grain hydrashocks -- but decided against it.

Since then, a neighbor has seen two cubs on my place, about a quarter mile from the house.

I usually carry a .357 or a .45 Colt in the woods, but don't consider the bears a threat.

inluvwithsara · « **Reply #17 on:** January 03, 2005, 03:19:35 AM »

black bear...44mag 300grains is my minimum...
Griz...an airstrike would be nice...or a 50cal barret or browning, but really, I'd stick to 45-70 or 450 marlin rifles...
If I had to go pistol...475 Limbaugh...
45 acp is better then throwing rocks...but when its over 700lbs...no thanks...

But honest...when I see black bears its the south end of a northbound bear...I would be more concerned with mountain lions and scumbags, and pot growers here in the east...
for griz...its a real big physics problem...force=Mass times the volocity squared...
1000 pounds of griz, charging at 20+ MPH = a heck of alot of force...the main reason i don't like sprays...by the time he is in range...he is most likley to get to you before he knows what that peppery oder is...
Just my view...seen them griz close enough from a car...no thanks...

Gallahad · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2005, 07:24:22 AM »

Not tryin to be dumb, I wouldent bear hunt with a 1911 either, BUT

I did some experimenting with hard cast bullets, 41mag @1350 fps. 210 gr. Those babies went Thru 32 shingles. yep, tar, stone, and fiberglass.
jhp's wouldent come close. Looking at my reload manual, I can get a .45 auto to push a 230gr. hard cast bullet out of a 5" barrel at 980 fps. Add a 4" barrel extension to that and velocity would slightly increase.

Second point is BLACK bears do not have thick hides. Very thin skin compared to a deer. the fat under the skin is what makes penetration to the vitals difficult. a hollow point, or soft lead will mushroom quickly, and stop before it gets to them. I think hc bullets would be the only way to go. fmj's have a round head and wouldent do as much damage as a flat nosed hard cast.

third point is (as mentioned above) black bears can be a hard target to hit properly. a great mass of lumbering black fur.

Now if a fella hit a b bear in the vitals, with a hc flat nosed 230 gr. .45 cal. bullet, going around 1000 fps. within 10-20 yds. What would the outcome be?

Just some worthless thoughts for us to all argue over

God Bless!

Trickyasafox · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2005, 01:06:18 PM »

i'd carry a gp100 in 357 with a 4in barrel. i dont like the cocked and locked carry, and prefer da / hammerless guns for carry. to be sure though, ill take the 45 with seven over the p11 with 13 :lol:

44 Man · « **Reply #20 on:** January 07, 2005, 08:40:23 AM »

I agree with Gallahad. My woods carry load for my 1911 is 200 swc hard cast bullet over 7.3 gr of Unique. That clocks 975 fps out of a 5" bbl. and is not abusive on the gun. You could run a 230 gr flat nose hc over 7 gr of Unique if you would like. Not grizz medicine, but certainly adequate for anything else. Great accuracy, excellent penetration. It's like the old story, if you KNEW you were going to meet a bear, you'd have brought a rifle! 44 Man

BamBams · « **Reply #21 on:** January 12, 2005, 02:26:51 AM »

Wow...lot's of speculating going on. Here's what I think the deal is:

Forget about expansion. You don't want it. It's just gonna piss off the bear.

Forget about stopping power with a .45 on a Bear. You just don't got any on a "raging" bear - Black or otherwise.

What you're needing is sufficient penetration to create internal organ damage and lots of it. That takes an FMJ. A super hard cast lead bullet is just gonna shatter when it hits bone. In my opinion, this would work only on Black Bears anywho. You could probably dump 5 mags on a Grizzly and not notice anything more than his teeth showing a bit larger.

zoyter2 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2005, 07:55:55 AM »

I think its the perfect handgun for a bear. If the bear practices and is able to conceal the larger frame, why not.

Vern Humphrey · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2005, 09:37:47 AM »

Quote from: zoyter2

I think its the perfect handgun for a bear. If the bear practices and is able to conceal the larger frame, why not.

Do you know how many comedians are out of work? :-D

Where's a bear gonna get a decent covering garment?

ShadowMover · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2005, 03:21:31 PM »

This is too little gun , and as bad, in my opinion as the deer hunting with the cannon discussion, which was banned from another thread. If you want to use a minimal weapon (against bear) like the .45 ACP, then get a spear and do it with a little style. At least a fellow hunter will respect you when you tell the story, and the bear will have a chance too. At least the deer hunter with the cannon killed the deer quickly. Maybe should get extreme and start a 'kill a bear with a .22 short' discussion. Let's not give the anti-gun and anti-hunter groups any stones to throw at us. Just my $.02 worth.

Vern Humphrey · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2005, 04:01:48 PM »

Quote from: ShadowMover

This is too little gun , and as bad, in my opinion as the deer hunting with the cannon discussion, which was banned from another thread. If you want to use a minimal weapon (against bear) like the .45 ACP, then get a spear and do it with a little style. At least a fellow hunter will respect you when you tell the story, and the bear will have a chance too. At least the deer hunter with the cannon killed the deer quickly. Maybe should get extreme and start a 'kill a bear with a .22 short' discussion. Let's not give the anti-gun and anti-hunter groups any stones to throw at us. Just my $.02 worth.

I once had a chance to use a .45 ACP on a bear. The bear had knocked over a beehive about 20 feet behind my house, but not robbed it (it was pouring rain when it happened.) Not knowing what had knocked it over, I reassembled it when I found it (and got stung several times in the process.)

Worried about the hive (because it was soaked through and through) I kept going out to check on it. About noon I went out and the bear was standing behind it. He moved across the drive, and stood there looking at me. It would have been a legal shoot (he WAS depredating on my property), but I couldn't have kept the meat or hide.

As it was, I decided to take a picture instead -- went inside for my digital camera, and the batteries were dead.

JR1 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 18, 2005, 05:45:10 PM »

As much as I love my .45, in bear country, I carry my .45 mag (Grizzly, now discontinued. . .btw, I'd love the .45 auto conversion for it. . .) which is better than .44 mag ballistics. But always save the last round for yourself!

pastorp · « **Reply #27 on:** January 18, 2005, 06:32:45 PM »

In the late 60's or early 70's I remember seeing a add for the colt junior semi-auto( in 25acp) showed a girl I believe with a 500# black bear she had killed with one.

I bought a colt junior right after that. I was never out of reach of that gun for the next 15 years. Killed everything I needed to shoot with it. Of course I didn't need to shoot any bears, but I felt better with it in my pocket. :grin:

Fellas in alaska we go black bear hunting with a switch. We have real bears to worry about. :-D Regards, Byron

YoungButOldSchool · « **Reply #28 on:** February 17, 2005, 07:48:47 PM »

Sure you could take on a bear with a .45! First of all, how good are you with it? More importantly how good are you with it at say 25 to 50 yards? Can you handle the recoil of over 500ft*lbs? I can imagine a situation where if I had a bear at say 50 or 60 yards charging in my direction and a ten round clip with my super-loads that i sometimes make for defensive purposes, you have a good chance of survival. If you have a 230gr slug with a muzzle velocity of close to 1,000 ft/sec(or more) for instance you get about 510ft*lbs, if you don't know what that means, that's a lot! Now you may not be able to handle that load, so say you got maybe 400ft*lbs, which with practice is easy to handle, and with a lot of practice you can be a damn good shot with that. The rule is 3 times the body weight in ft*lbs is a one-shot kill, and you wont lose more than 30ft*lbs at this distance per shot, so if you follow this logic, you can see that a 500lb bear can be taken down with 3 or 4 shots without a head or heart shot. Maybe you still think its risky to only carry a .45 for protection out there in the wilderness, well to each his own.

Mikey · « **Reply #29 on:** February 18, 2005, 12:30:09 PM »

YoungButOld School - 45 acp loads to those power levels would make your gust go bust, and maybe a sizeable chunk of your forehead with it. Those are some pretty hot loads you were thinking about and I would be very leery of putting an older 45 through that much less a newer one with heavy springs and possibly a recoil buffer.

And that's a pretty desparate situation you presented there friend, but that's the kind of thing that goes from fantasy to nightmare in a heartbeat and there is no way I would want to be in that situation with just a 45 auto, period. If you think you are going to encounter a dangerous predatory animal you should be better prepared than with just a 45 acp, or you should not go there, period. No false bravado (see 2nd phrase).

44 man's suggestion for a woods load is getting pretty close to the 1911's practical limitations. That is a practical load that will get you out of most bad situations but, when you are dealing with predatory creatures, numbers simply do not mean schmidt. Lots of guys have been killed by numbers. Numbers don't work with people and they sure don't work with predators.

Save the 45 for a carry or sporting piece and get yourself something more appropriate for the woods. Mikey.