Raw skills or equipment, discuss

[Empty Quiver]

Scenario, You have thirty days to prepare. You will be expected to go forward sans electricity, petrolium products, think 1820.

 Would you spend the time working and purchaseing as much "kit" as you can or would that time be better spent learning the skills of an early 19th century plains indian. So are you a wagon load of supplies person or a short pack string.

The romantic in me wants the short pack string and the skills of a Lakota indian. The modern man ain't so sure about the hard nature of that existance. Some modern tools, weapons, and medical supplies could easily be the difference between life and death. Being a babe in the woods would be equally dangerous.

What say you?

[SHOOTALL]

The Lakota grew up in an enviroment that was not as sanitary and his body if it survived to adulthood could resist things that would kill a modern man. I'm thinking I might need medicine and a few other crutches . Life wasn't as long for many back then either . Many of us are past prime already , being out of shape for that lifestyle .
Interesting , makes one look at his short commings

[Lurker]

Scenario, You have thirty days to prepare. You will be expected to go forward sans electricity, petrolium products, think 1820.

 Would you spend the time working and purchaseing as much "kit" as you can or would that time be better spent learning the skills of an early 19th century plains indian. So are you a wagon load of supplies person or a short pack string.

Thirty days isn't much time for anything...! You had better be working on both of the above now...

The romantic in me wants the short pack string and the skills of a Lakota indian. The modern man ain't so sure about the hard nature of that existance. Some modern tools, weapons, and medical supplies could easily be the difference between life and death. Being a babe in the woods would be equally dangerous.

The sensible modern man needs the practiced skills of a pioneer, and the supplies, particularly the sanitary and medical supplies, available to a modern man.[/quote]

What say you?

                                                     *****moderator edit*****
   if we want to talk about survival, talk survival.   forums i moderate will not decend into arguements about edited subject matter.  -myronman3

[Empty Quiver]

Well lurker the thirty days is part of the problem isn't it. The Lakota is not the issue it is more of a generalization, substitute Hutu, Watusi, or Australian Aboriginae if it suits you.

 If for instance you have already been hoarding things the skills would have more benefit to you. Might be pretty handy to know how to build a self bow, knap flint or forge weld for that matter. If you have been living a rather outdoor adventure at the expense of a fat paycheck maybe $4000 bucks would get the additional supplies say 10,000 rounds of ammo for the guns, or maybe a drawknife and adz or walking plow that you have put off forever.

Makes a person think about their level of preparedness, you need both mental and physical. Where is your balance at now?

[kyelkhunter3006]

I'm thinking that if it was going to get that bad, most people aren't going to have, or want to spend, the cash to get the kind of equipment that you'll be thinking that you will "need" to survive.  Spend the 30 days researching and getting prepared to live on skills.  You're not going to be an expert, but you'll have the rudimental knowledge that you will need.

Knowledge is power in the end.

[Old Syko]

I would like to think my stores list is fairly complete.  We live in the country and are used to doing more things than a city counterpart could even dream of.  30 more days of intense learning would probably serve me best.  Even at that, at our age meds are an issue.  We're fortunate enough to be able to store up to a years supply of things we know we will need.  Preparing for the future unknown along those lines would be a bit of a problem since some things don't keep well even under the best of circumstances.  For the most part, my plan is to pull my immediate family in close, establish a perimeter, and do our best to continue.

[blind ear]

Haveing the basic tools is a major step. Having some books describeing the basic skills will be a big help. Having the common sence to use the tools and book knowledge is a different matter.

The Indians stole horses they didn't raise them, I have read. They could have done the job of raising and training them but the lifestyle the had advanced to or were forced to adopt at the time of the invasion of the Europeans didn't allow that time curve. Spinning yarn and weaving cloath (a mark of more modern people) is a much less difficult mental process than manufactureing planned chipped and flaked stone tools.

The void between createing for your self and takeing from others is the difference in having civilization and anarchy. The people that band together to maintain "civilization" would appear to have a better chance at success. The groups that adopt piracy to survive are likely to turn on themselves or be threatened from within to a much greater degree that a group based on law and justice. Such groups, pirates, usually depend on "death oaths" and "death penalties" enforced from within to maintain thier unity.

eddiegjr

[vacek]

The Lakota and othe "primitives" while self sufficient also had their kits, ready made to go. If you have read the biography of Crazy Horse, by his time he was worried because so many of the "New Generation" had become too dependent on the White Man's guns, tools, etc.  He personally was addicted to the tobacco.  The point being that no matter how skilled you are, technology gives an advantage.

[DanOv]

I am healthy, pretty handy, have modern "woodsman" skills, and know I would still have a tough time. 

I would stockup on modern supplies, weapons, tools, food, but most of all BOOKS and videos on primitive and pioneer skills as well as modern building techniques.   After 28-29 days of stocking up, I would want to be in a small, easily heated and cooled hidey hole with a my supplies and family.  A solar charger should keep the laptop running for long enough to digest the videos.  My job after the lights go out would be to survive and digest/train in all of the info I had collected.

[kynardsj]

I have the tools but would need the time to prepare mentally, learning more about survival techniques. I have several good books and some knowledge but would still want to know more. People that are raised in a survival scenario be it years ago or tribes today that are not in civilization as we know it are more suited to surviving without modern things such as electricity and such. Surviving as we call it is just another day to them. 

[Bigeasy]

Heck, I'd just join a local Amish family..  They pretty much are already leading the lifestyle.

Larry

[Casull]

Definitely spend the time acquiring supplies and equipment.  With those in hand, you can spend the next x years learning and perfecting your skills.  Why waste time learning skills when you can do that a month from now with plenty of food, supplies, etc. to keep you happy and healthy while you learn?

[kyelkhunter3006]

I guess that's as good an argument as any.   

Of course, the U.S. military disagrees with you.  As would all of the people who've gone through boot camp.  What's the point of having something that you don't know how to use?

[Dee]

Hoarding food, is good to a point, unless you have to move. This country in most parts would be stripped clean of most available resources in most likely one month, give or take a week or two. Keep in mind that even the American Indian during rough times starved to death. They did train many if not most of their own horses, and it is said that the Nez Pierce bred the Appaloosa into a breed of it's own.
Knowledge is the key to survival if survival is achieved. I have a friend that thinks gold is the key. I asked him if an economic collapse occurred, whom got to determine what the gold was worth? His reply was the owner of the gold, to which I asked: What if the other guy disagrees? For that he had no answer. It was then that I advised him that you cannot eat gold, and with lead and gun powder, coupled with a launching device, commonly referred to as a gun, you can most likely get all the gold you can carry off.

[Casull]

I guess that's as good an argument as any.  

Of course, the U.S. military disagrees with you.  As would all of the people who've gone through boot camp.  What's the point of having something that you don't know how to use?

Yeah, that's real bright.       With a limited amount of time (30 days), you're going to spend it practicing your survival skills, as opposed to acquiring stores which will last you much longer than that.  While you're living on the stores, you can then practice (and have much more than 30 days to do it).  But, your way is much better.       Oh, and guess what.  The military acquired the stores first and THEN they send you thru bootcamp.  Sort of allows you to eat and have equipment while you're learning those skills.

[blind ear]

When the Indians gathered acorns they wanted 600 lb per person I have read. If white oak was short, the red oaks took a lot more leaching. I believe it would be easy to starve trying to live on leached out bitter pecans. eddie

[The Hermit]

In upstate NY, the indians were known as barkeaters. In bad winters, they either starved or ate the inner bark of trees. Tough or what? Also, as I noted in another topic, they had caches. They would parch corn and store it underground, below the frost line. They dried and smoked fish and game.
I think the skills of drying, smoking and preserving are very valuable.
I just canned 21 jars of roasted peppers, that I grew in my garden. Its easy enough to do, but you need the equipement unless you wanna eat bark all winter. Aquire the skills and equipement.


   The Hermit

[Casull]

Aquire the skills and equipement.

Hard to argue against that.  But, the OP gave a 30 day time limit.  With that, I still say spend it on acquiring the goods.   

[Hooker]

30 days?
Gather as much equipment as possible but first gather as many books on the subjects like self sustainability, medicine, blacksmithing, herbs, edible plants, .ect as you can. Because you can't know everything but if you can access the information you can learn. Knowledge is the most important piece of equipment you can have.

Pat 

[Dee]

30 days?
Gather as much equipment as possible but first gather as many books on the subjects like self sustainability, medicine, blacksmithing, herbs, edible plants, .ect as you can. Because you can't know everything but if you can access the information you can learn. Knowledge is the most important piece of equipment you can have.

Pat 

I agree with all said here Pat. A good combination.

[Swampman]

IMO 30 days isn't enough time to become skilled enough unless you've practiced all your life you better be hoarding food.

[Casull]

30 days?
Gather as much equipment as possible but first gather as many books on the subjects like self sustainability, medicine, blacksmithing, herbs, edible plants, .ect as you can. Because you can't know everything but if you can access the information you can learn. Knowledge is the most important piece of equipment you can have.

Agreed.  I consider books to be valuable "stores".

[don heath]

If you have the basics you need the skills to use them properly..beyond that, you need enough food and medical supplies to 'shelter' you while you learn and adapt.

I know the local bushmen would help me and my family, but it still takes time to get feet tough enough to wear raw hide sandals..easier than going bear foot but still takes time to get used to...many of the 'edible' wild foods give me the runs if I eat more than small ammounts...that would change with repeated exposure to small ammounts...but still need enough 'food' to keep us going for a couple of months 'supplimented' with wild food whilst we 'aclimatise'.

I suspect the real key to 'sustainable survival' for TEOTWAWKI is a community who have enough diverse skills - A farmer to guide in the growing of crops, a doctor or better still, a pharmacist to work on the medical side, a good smith etc. No one man can do all and know all

[kyelkhunter3006]

I guess that's as good an argument as any.  

Of course, the U.S. military disagrees with you.  As would all of the people who've gone through boot camp.  What's the point of having something that you don't know how to use?

Yeah, that's real bright.       With a limited amount of time (30 days), you're going to spend it practicing your survival skills, as opposed to acquiring stores which will last you much longer than that.  While you're living on the stores, you can then practice (and have much more than 30 days to do it).  But, your way is much better.      Oh, and guess what.  The military acquired the stores first and THEN they send you thru bootcamp.  Sort of allows you to eat and have equipment while you're learning those skills.

That's called training.  They use it to teach you have the knowledge you need to use the equipment that you have.  Does the military strap you in a box and drop you in the middle of Pakistan with a bunch of equipment that you have NO knowledge of how to use it?  And expect you to be able to survive?  I don't think that they do.

Realistically, how many of us have enough money to acquire the needed supplies to last long enough to "self instruct" ourselves in the use of outdoor skills needed to live in a scenario like that?  If you know it's coming, so will many other people.  Demand will outstrip the supply and cause prices to escalate.  Suddenly your budget is not enough.  

You know you have 30 days till you have to do it.  You plan your meals and supplies based on what you think you are going to use.  

Ok.  

What happens if you lose half the supplies?  Are you going to join the "accelerated outdoors skills" class and hope you can learn enough before you have to buckle down and do it?  

What happens if you lose all of the supplies?  Well, if you don't have the knowledge of the skills you are going to need, the best case would be to put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye.  BECAUSE YOU WON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO TO SURVIVE.

[Hooker]

You don't have to be an expert to survive. If you have the basic skills , good equipment, a good store of supplies you can sustain your self while you learn. Some of it will be an accelerated learning some of it will take time and some of it you may never learn. But if you have the information and instruction stored in books you really way ahead of those who think they know everything they need to know.  Anyone who thinks their military training or their I bug eating camp out course will get them through an all out world wide survival scenario is in for a rude awakening.
Nobody is coming to rescue you it's not a camping trip. But it is not hopeless so pull your head out from between legs or folks will think your a liberal.
don heath's idea of multiple people with diverse skill sets is great. Not only is a great but when you combine that with teaching and learning you aren't just surviving you are thriving.

Pat

[burntmuch]

Id gather goods, including food , gear , books, & friends. The lone indian dont make it too long. A tribes got a better chance

[Casull]

That's called training.  They use it to teach you have the knowledge you need to use the equipment that you have.  Does the military strap you in a box and drop you in the middle of Pakistan with a bunch of equipment that you have NO knowledge of how to use it?  And expect you to be able to survive?  I don't think that they do.

Realistically, how many of us have enough money to acquire the needed supplies to last long enough to "self instruct" ourselves in the use of outdoor skills needed to live in a scenario like that?  If you know it's coming, so will many other people.  Demand will outstrip the supply and cause prices to escalate.  Suddenly your budget is not enough. 

You know you have 30 days till you have to do it.  You plan your meals and supplies based on what you think you are going to use. 

Ok. 

What happens if you lose half the supplies?  Are you going to join the "accelerated outdoors skills" class and hope you can learn enough before you have to buckle down and do it?   

What happens if you lose all of the supplies?  Well, if you don't have the knowledge of the skills you are going to need, the best case would be to put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye.  BECAUSE YOU WON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO TO SURVIVE.

Too stubborn to admit what most here seem to already acknowledge?  Yes, knowledge is important, very important.  But, again, just how much knowledge are you going to acquire in 30 days?  You could easily acquire enough stores to last you 180 days.  Then you would have 6 times as long to learn those skills, all while staying well fed.  Also, why do you think that your 30 days of acquiring skills before the SHTF will be any more valuable than the 120, 150, 180 or more days of acquring the skills after the SHTF?  Pretty easy concept, if you just look at it logically.  Oh well.

[kyelkhunter3006]

I do understand what you mean.  I really do.

My point is, as I stated, what happens to YOU if something happens to the supplies?  I'm not saying that we should all just take our knife and forget about everything else.  You have to have some supplies with you.  You're banking on having 180 days of supplies.  That's great.  That will give you 180 days to learn about how to survive without the supplies.

This is all a what-if scenario. 

What if you can't get enough supplies?

What if something happens to the supplies?

What if you get hurt and can't get back to the supplies?

That's my point.  You are saying spend the time getting supplies, have a rudimentary knowledge of then,  and then learn how to use the stuff as you go.  In a perfect world, that's fine.  If you're three days into it and god forbid you lose the supplies somehow, then what are you going to do?

[Casull]

Hey ky, I do understand what you're saying.  And, yes, I think usable skills are very important.  What I'm keying in on is the short run up time.  With only 30 days, I would still focus on obtaining supplies.  As far as what ifs, what if you broke your arm 3 days in?  At least with the supplies, you could easily eat until you heal (kind of hard to rub two sticks together with one arm).   

[Hooker]

You have a point but then we could what if the whole scenario to death. Some things will always be out of our control no matter how much we plan or what possessions we have. Our days were numbered from the beginning and all any of us can do is our best while we are here. I can only speak for my own survival skills. I'm by no means an expert but I am sure that barring things that are out of my control I could survive on just the skills and tools I have for quite some time. This is why I like these discussions it widens ones perspective by introducing varying views and exchanges of ideas.  My mother told us kids to be sure and take God, a can do attitude and good dose of optimism every where we go.
That's the best survival kit I've ever had.

Pat