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Offline BCB

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Garden Failure...
« on: July 21, 2010, 01:25:51 PM »
I live in Western PA and plant a fair-sized garden every year…

This year I had complete failure as the plants simply did not grow at all.  And I mean not at all!  The tomatoes are small with one or two tomatoes on each plant—the peppers are the same.  The vine crops grew about 2-feet longer than when they were plant—0 productions…

I put amendments in the garden each year as analyzed by an agricultural college…

I think it is time to give it a rest for at least one growing season.  The productivity has been slowly declining the past several years...

I would like to plow it in late August, then till it, and then plant a good cover crop to grow and come up in the spring.  Let it grow all season next year and then plow it and get it ready for the 2012 season…

Any thoughts on what cover crop would be the best?...

Thanks…BCB

Offline bearmgc

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 03:09:21 PM »
Geez, alfalfa? That's a bummer. All that work, and no production.

Offline charles p

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 05:49:28 PM »
You may not have a nutrient problem.  You didn't apply weed and feed grass fertilizer did you?  What chemicals have you used.  Get another soil test now, while it is at its worst condition.  Do you rotate your plant locations in the garden?  Scratching my head.  Something strange is going on.

I've been mulching my garden for about four years now.  Just made a difference this year.  Soil test showed it only needed 1lb of nitrogen per 100 sq/ft.

Offline steg

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 07:24:18 PM »
+1 on the fertilizer, how about a list of all the amendments you used, I'm on the other side of PA here and we had one heck of a dry spell, if you tried folliar feeding with something like Miracle Grow or the like, that will knock the heck out of the plants................steg

Offline Ranger J

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 06:20:33 AM »
If your soil PH is OK and the nutrients are good than something really strange  has to be going on.  It is possible to add too much fertilizer or lime to the soil???  I am assuming the plants got normal watering either by rain or artificial means.  My father in law for years spread the wood ashes from his fire place on his garden and things started to go down and when he had the soil checked the Ph was out of bounds and it had a way too high reading of pot ash.  I'm having a senior moment right now and can't remember what the  element involved is, phosphate  maybe??

RJ

Offline ironglow

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 06:24:01 AM »
  I can't comment, here in western NY I'm seeing a decent garden...the first in about 3 years...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline BCB

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 11:15:09 AM »
The analysis recommended 10-10-10 fertilizer at so much per 1000 square feet.  I applied the appropriate amount.  It was a minimal amount for sure.  I always add a 50-pound bag of lime to it every year.  The pH is 6.5-7.0 according to thee analysis…

The garden is about 50’x50’ and I plant ½ of it each year.  So, I do use rotation in a minimal sense…

The plants are all yellowish and very small.  Almost no growth since they were planted during the 1st week of June.  I planted some rye on the unused part also and it got about 5” tall and that is all.  It is yellowish also…

The only thing I can think is that the ground was extremely wet this year.  It may have then dried literally as hard as concrete and it didn’t allow the roots to grow.  Maybe the plants just about half drowned also…

It is a mystery as that garden is fairly productive and we can between 75-100 quarts/pints of tomato and pepper products each year.  There will be none this year…

I do have another garden at another piece of property that I own and it is doing exceptional.  There is something wrong with the garden in question…

I think plowing it now, tilling it now, and then some amendments and plant it heavily with at cover crop and let it go next growing season.  Then hope for the best…

Continue with any advice—I’m listening…

BCB

Online Bob Riebe

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2010, 06:46:12 PM »
If your soil is 6.5-7, why are you adding lime?

Most plants prefer a slightly acidic soil- 6.5 -is considered excellent, seven  is neutral, but considered alkaline, you are forcing to the alkaline side.
You should not be adding lime.
Too much lime makes it impossible for plants to get, iron, manganese, zinc and other micro-nutrients.

One problem, if you have too little lime, you can always add more, if you have to much you cannot simply go out and get rid of it.
It usually takes three years before the result of too much lime shows up.
Too much lime may NOT raise the ph of your soil but will still cause iron chlorosis which it sounds like your plants are suffering from; plus it could also be low manganese also.
If you are at seven you are too high.
Have an in depth analysis of your soil done to see what actually is or is not there.

Take one of the tomato plants and give it a health dose of chelated iron, often, see if it improves.
If you are at seven you will probably have to add acidifying elements till the lime is over come.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 11:42:21 AM »
  Soil that dries hard after a rain, usually is over tilled soil.  The soil structure has been ruined from over tilling, so it dries hard like concrete.  Soil like that needs compost...

  DM

Offline BCB

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 01:41:24 PM »
Bob Riebe…

I added the lime to get Mg.  You indicate Mn.  Is that a typo on your part, or might I actually need Mn?  What might a source of that be?...

“It usually takes three years before the result of too much lime shows up.”

That is interesting.  I may have been getting a decline over the past few years as I mentioned earlier…

Drilling Man…

Even though I plow the garden yearly and break the soil up, could over tilling still be the problem.  I do till the plow rows up in the spring and I do have a 48” tiller for my tractor.  Maybe it is overdoing it.  But, it seems any less tilling and it is just big clumpy lumps!

That is one of the reasons I want to plant a cover crop and let it grow for a season and then plow it in.  That might add some compost…

Well, thanks to all…

I’m still listening and reading…

BCB


Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2010, 02:52:33 PM »
  I use a 3 point tiller too, but i never plow it first.  All a plow does is make compaction...

  Why don't you go around and pick up all the leaves folks have bagged up by the side of the road in the fall, and put large amounts of them in your garden.  Then till the leaves in!  You will get a lot more good compost out of those, than a fallow crop, even though you may have to add some N back untill the leaves release it after composting.

  I use to go to town with my pu and a BIG trailor behind it every fall, and fill them both to heaping with bagged leaves for my garden.  I no longer do that, because my garden now has huge amounts of compost already in it, and i add more every year.

  DM

Offline charles p

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2010, 03:28:39 PM »
Your question and all the comments are very interesting.  I think I'd invite the ag extension agent to pay me a visit.  There is a reasn for your results.  You just have to find out what it is.

I've been applying compost to my garden each year.  One year it was semi rotten peanut hulls, then old chicken manure, household compost, eel grass (grows in salt water).  Every year I get a soil test but every year my garden is different.  This year I am having a great garden with the exception of squash, and cucumbers.  I've doubled the amount and frequency of miracle grow.  Years past I used granular fertiziler.  Seems that the miracle grow is more effective.  The squash problem is from the squash vine bore.

I'm having my best tomato year ever.  For some reason my fruit is larger this year.  In years past I have had a lot of smaller fruit.

I have used a less nitrogen this year.  I started my crop with 6-18-18.  In NC this is tobacco fertilizer.  Works great on my St. Augustine yard as well.   My lawn test always come back as 6-18-18.  I live in a very sandy area at the coast.  I have irrigation on my yard and drip irrigation in my garden.  The garden gets 2 1/2 hours twice per week.  Each nozzle puts out 1 gallon per hour.  The nozzles are about two feet apart.  My land is so sandy, it will not hold much water or nutrients.

Online Bob Riebe

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2010, 08:30:41 PM »
Bob Riebe…

I added the lime to get Mg.  You indicate Mn.  Is that a typo on your part, or might I actually need Mn?  What might a source of that be?...

“It usually takes three years before the result of too much lime shows up.”

That is interesting.  I may have been getting a decline over the past few years as I mentioned earlier…

Drilling Man…

Even though I plow the garden yearly and break the soil up, could over tilling still be the problem.  I do till the plow rows up in the spring and I do have a 48” tiller for my tractor.  Maybe it is overdoing it.  But, it seems any less tilling and it is just big clumpy lumps!

That is one of the reasons I want to plant a cover crop and let it grow for a season and then plow it in.  That might add some compost…

Well, thanks to all…

I’m still listening and reading…

BCB


Lime is calcium carbonate, why would you add that for manganese?
Are you adding Manganese and then Lime?
Lime is not a fertilizer.
Too much, can, make soil compacted.

If too much lime is your problem a cover crop will do no good, you will have to start adding acidifying material, possibly for a long time, lime will not simply leave the soil.

Lime blocks many nutrients as I said before with Iron and Manganese being two of the most important.
You may be best off just starting a new plot.

Macronutrients  
  
The primary nutrients are nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), and potassium (K). These major nutrients usually are lacking from the soil first because plants use large amounts for their growth and survival.  

The secondary nutrients are calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), and sulfur (S). There are usually enough of these nutrients in the soil so fertilization is not always needed. Also, large amounts of Calcium and Magnesium are added when lime is applied to acidic soils. Sulfur is usually found in sufficient amounts from the slow decomposition of soil organic matter, an important reason for not throwing out grass clippings and leaves.

Micronutrients  

Micronutrients are those elements essential for plant growth which are needed in only very small (micro) quantities . These elements are sometimes called minor elements or trace elements, but use of the term micronutrient is encouraged by the American Society of Agronomy and the Soil Science Society of America. The micronutrients are boron (B), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), chloride (Cl), manganese (Mn), molybdenum (Mo) and zinc (Zn). Recycling organic matter such as grass clippings and tree leaves is an excellent way of providing micronutrients (as well as macronutrients) to growing plants.


Some of the educational books, ones used by Ag. Biology Teachers, get used, new can cost a fortune, often have excellant chapters on what soil needs and what happens when one makes the error of if a little is good, a lot is better (although, at times, depending on what one is growing and how, the latter can be very true to the positive side. )

Offline steg

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2010, 10:41:31 AM »
I would add as much compost as you can get to the soil, there's way too much lime it there. One of the many benefits of compost is the fact that it will tend to neutralize the soil. Myself I'm down to a fraction of the garden I used to have and have trouble tending that, but I still compost everything I can get, and add that compost to the garden. I don't remember the last time I used fertilizer other than compost or composted manure, and I haven't added any lime in 15 or more years now, and the plants still grow as good as they did when I was a young man...........................steg

Offline BCB

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2010, 01:20:34 AM »
Well, it appears as though lime might be the problem although I don’t think I put all that much on it, but maybe too much.  I am going to check the pH of the soil again…

I know the farmers in this area put tons of lime on their fields on a regular basis, but maybe it’s the slow release type—don’t know…

I do put some leaves on it each year and my neighbor has a rather large pile of them and he said I could have them.  Guess I will put them on too and hope it might add a bit of acidity to the soil—maybe that will help neutralize some of the alkalinity…

I basically added the amendments that Penn State indicated when I sent them a sample of my soil.  I suppose a more extensive analysis my help pinpoint the problem closer…

I do think that part of the problem this year was excessive wetness in the soil…

There seems to be a bit of disagreement as to whether I should plow the garden or not.  I was thinking about putting the leaves on it and then plowing it later this summer.  Then in the spring of 2011, till it and then try planting it again.  We grow our own plants to put in the garden, so it really is not a monetary loss, but a loss of time and effort…

Starting a new garden is probably not an option, although I do have the room/area to do that.  The soils around here are just plain lousy.  The present garden has been enhanced and in past years produced a very good crop.  The garden is over 20 years old…

I do have another garden on another piece of property, so it has sort of been a backup this year…

So any other comments will be appreciated…

Thanks…BCB



Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2010, 04:20:21 AM »
  I'm not convinced that it's lime causeing the problem...  I'll wait for a soil test to make my mind up...  As for tillage, i'd ADD all the leaves/grass/straw ect. i could get my hands on now or later this fall, and till it in late in the year.  I don't use chemical ferts, but if you do, you may want to add a bit of high N fert along with the leaves ect. to help them break down by spring.  I add turkey poop to my gardens to get the N that i want in them...

  No matter what is wrong with your garden, adding huge amounts of compost will help it...

  DM

Offline Ranger J

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2010, 08:13:26 AM »
Almost any compostable material is good.  If you have pine needles that will acidify the soil.  Your own grass clippings are good but I shy away from other peoples as I don't know what kind of chemicals they may have used (Weed and feed and such).I have an almost endless supply of oak leaves that I run the push lawn mower over and use for mulch this year and turn under for compost this fall.  These also will somewhat acidify the soil and I add some nitrogen also.  Luckily I have a cattle sale outfit about a mile or so down the road and they are happy for anyone to hall the byproduct off and even will load it for you if you have a truck.  This is my first year on this garden plot as we have just moved and we have had good luck with everything except for the onions which I got in too late.

RJ

Online Bob Riebe

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2010, 07:07:09 PM »
It may not be the lime, but I would stop putting it on for a few years at least.

It sounds like chlorosis, and I would get some chelated iron on the plants to see if that helps, here is a University statement on chlorosis.

report on
PLANT
DISEASE DEPARTMENT OF CROP SCIENCES
UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT URBANA-CHAMPAIGN
Figure 1. Iron Chlorosis of Mountain Laurel.
RPD No. 603
March 1996
IRON CHLOROSIS OF WOODY PLANTS:
CAUSE AND CONTROL
Chlorosis, a yellowing of the plant leaf
due to a lack of chlorophyll, may be
caused by a variety of factors. Among the
more common causes are compacted soils,
poor drainage, root damage, alkaline soils,
and nutrient deficiencies. Probably the
most common cause is iron chlorosis,
where iron is unavailable to the plant.
Iron (Fe) is an essential element for plant
growth. It is required for the formation of
chlorophyll, the green pigments that capture
light to produce food for the plant.
Iron is also necessary for the proper functioning
of many plant enzyme systems that
influence respiration and plant
metabolism.
Chlorosis may develop because of unfavorable conditions for the utilization of iron in the plant or in the
soil. Under neutral or alkaline conditions at a soil reaction (pH) above 6.5 to 6.7, iron changes into
insoluble forms and becomes unavailable for uptake and utilization by the plants.
CAUSES OF CHLOROSIS
Iron chlorosis can develop under conditions that reduce the availability of iron to the plant. Iron is usable
by plants only as the Fe++ ion, and is available in this form only when the soil pH is between 5.0 and 6.5.
The presence of relatively large amounts of zinc, manganese, or copper in the soil also contributes to iron
chlorosis. Excessive amounts of these elements decrease or prevent iron absorption by the plant. Large
amounts of limestone or ash, insufficient potassium, or excessive application of fertilizers that are high
in phosphorus also contribute to iron chlorosis.
A deficiency of available iron is aggravated by low temperatures and plants under stress from poor root
aeration or soil drainage, restricted root growth, soil salinity, or a lack of iron in the soil. In addition,
many plants that are sensitive to iron chlorosis are planted without regard to their adaptability to existing
soil conditions.
Iron chlorosis occurs in a wide variety of crop and ornamental plants that grow in neutral and alkaline
soils (pH above 6.5). Chlorosis is most common in Illinois near brick, stucco, or cement foundations and
- 2 -
concrete sidewalks and drives, where high lime subsoils from basement excavations were used as fill, or
where excessive amounts of limestone were applied.
Over 250 species of plants are susceptible. The crop plants that are commonly affected include apple,
blackberry, blueberry, cherry, citrus, corn, flax, grape, turf and pasture grasses, mint, peach, pear, plum,
quince, sorghum, soybean, and strawberry.
Woody ornamentals that are susceptible include arborvitae, azalea, bald cypress, birch, black locust,
boxelder, boxwood, camellia, crabapple, cotoneaster, flowering dogwood, Douglas fir, elm, gardenia,
ginkgo, honeylocust, hydrangea, juniper or red cedar, lilac, silver and sugar maples, certain oaks (bur,
pin, red, shingle, white, willow), pine, poplar, privet, pyracantha, rhododendron, rose, sour gum, spirea,
spruce, sweet gum, sycamore, tulip tree, walnut, and willow. The most commonly affected woody
ornamentals in Illinois are the pin oak and the sweet gum.
Symptoms
A lack of available iron produces a variety of symptoms on trees and shrubs, from a partial or complete
yellowing (chlorosis) of young leaves to poor growth or the death of the plant. Symptoms may include
the death (necrosis) of leaf tissues, premature leaf drop, a stunting and dieback of twigs and branches,
and the failure of ornamentals to produce flowers or fruit. Occasionally, only part of a tree or shrub will
show symptoms.
Chlorosis, the most common symptom, is characterized by a pale coloration of interveinal leaf tissues,
yellowish green to golden yellow. The network of veins remains green (Figure 1). If severe, the leaves
may be dwarfed, turn ivory colored, and appear scorched along the margins; or angular brown spots may
develop between the veins. Such leaves eventually curl, wither, and drop prematurely. Trees under the
stress of a high iron deficiency may have severely stunted or dead terminal twigs and branches, while the
lower and older branches appear normal. In conifers, an overall yellowing of the needles occurs. If
severe, the needles progressively turn brown and drop; shoots may die back.
Iron chlorosis can be confused with zinc and manganese deficiencies. Iron chlorosis can often be
differentiated because the chlorosis appears first on the younger or terminal leaves, spreading later to the
lower parts of the plant. Zinc and manganese deficiencies appear first on the older, basal leaves.
Control
Iron chlorosis can be controlled when plants are supplied with available iron. The iron may be sprayed
onto the chlorotic foliage, introduced into the trunk, or added to the soil. The most lasting results are
obtained through treating the soil. Generally, the treatment is most effective when done by a licensed
and experienced arborist with the proper tools and equipment.
1. Foliar Treatment. A thorough spraying of the foliage with iron (ferrous) sulfate, a soluble organic
iron complex, or an iron chelate usually corrects chlorosis in leaves that are treated, but will not
benefit leaves that are produced later in the season. Several sprays at 2- to 4-week intervals may be
needed to keep the developing foliage green. Iron chelates are more effective in inducing recovery
than spray applications of iron sulfate.
For treating shrubs, dissolve 2 1/3 ounces of iron sulfate in 3 gallons of water and thoroughly spray the
foliage. Add a tablespoon of a commercial spreader-sticker to the spray mix to help the spray adhere to
the leaves.
- 3 -
For treating trees, dissolve 1 pound of iron sulfate in 20 gallons of water and add 2 ounces of
spreader-sticker. Several ounces of liquid household detergent can be substituted for the spreadersticker.
The foliage should be wetted uniformly until the spray begins to drip off the leaves.
If applying a spray of soluble organic complex or an iron chelate, follow the manufacturer's
directions on the package label carefully. Spray the foliage in the late spring or early summer when
the leaves are expanding in size. Sprays are best applied in the early morning or in the evening when
the air is calm and both the humidity and soil moisture are high. Foliar applications of iron materials
give a quick but short recovery from chlorosis, but the effects will not last more than one season.
2. Trunk Implantation. Introducing an iron salt into the trunk of an affected tree should control
chlorosis for 2 to 4 years. Treatment is quick, neat, and effective. Recovery is often noted within
30 days. Three trunk implantation methods are available.
A. Implanting ferric or ferrous citrate powder. Bore holes 3/8 to 1/2 inch in diameter and 1 to
2 inches deep into the white sapwood. Bore holes at an oblique angle, slanted downward, and
2 to 4 inches apart in a spiral around the tree beginning 1 to 3 feet above the soil line. Make a
hole for each inch of trunk diameter. Trees with trunks up to 4 inches in diameter at breast
height should receive 0.4 grams of ferric citrate per hole, with the holes 2 inches apart. Trees
with trunk diameters of 4 to 12 inches should receive 1.4 grams per hole, with the holes spaced
3 inches apart. Trees with trunks larger than 12 inches in diameter should receive 2.8 grams per
hole, with the holes 4 inches apart. Seal the holes with grafting wax, putty, glazing compound,
or asphalt. Wood dowels or corks are not recommended for this purpose.
B. Placing plastic capsules containing ferric ammonium citrate. Place capsules in holes bored
into the sapwood as described in A above. The plastic capsules have slotted sides that allow a
timed release of the iron salt into the sap and beveled heads that keep the sap from bleeding,
thus promoting rapid wound closure (usually within a year). Several sizes of capsules are
available. The one to use depends on the size of the tree being treated. Follow the
manufacturer's recommendations concerning the size and quantity of plastic capsules needed.
Encapsulated iron salts should be applied in the late spring or early summer. Research in
Illinois and Ohio indicates that the use of encapsulated iron salts is a very effective method of
controlling iron chlorosis, particularly in pin oak and bald cypress.
C. Injections of chelated iron into the trunk. Solutions containing iron chelate can be injected
under pressure into the tree trunk. A commercial product comes with the chelate solution in
small plastic canisters. The iron chelate is injected into the tree in a pattern similar to that
described for methods A and B. The holes made in the tree using this method are small and
usually heal quickly. No foreign object or material is left in the tree trunk. Such tree injection
treatments should be made by an experienced commercial arborist.
3. Soil Treatments. Iron chelates are commonly used and are effective. For best results, follow the
directions on the package label carefully. The iron compound is placed in a series of holes, 1 1/2 to
2 inches in diameter and 12 to 15 inches deep, that are made with a punch bar or a soil auger. (A
soil auger attached to an electric drill provides a quick and easy method of making holes). For
uniform distribution of the chemical, the holes should be spaced at 2- to 3-foot intervals in a series
of parallel lines 2 feet apart under the complete spread of the branches and extending just beyond the
drip line. No holes should be made within 2 1/2 to 4 feet of the tree trunk. Approximately 200 to
250 holes are required in a soil area of 1,000 square feet.
- 4 -
Another method of treating the soil is to dissolve the iron chelate in water and inject the solution into
the soil, using a feeder needle or lance connected to a power sprayer that delivers 150 to 200 pounds
of pressure per square inch. Up to 10 pounds of iron chelate in 200 gallons of water can be applied
per 1,000 square feet. This is the maximum rate of iron chelate for highly alkaline soils (pH 8.0 to
8.5). Lesser amounts are needed for neutral soils (pH 6.5 to 7.2) and slightly alkaline soils (pH 7.2
to 7.5). Approximately 140 to 160 injection sites are required in 1,000 square feet of soil.
Soil treatment is best done when the soil is moist in April, May, or early June. If the soil is dry,
irrigate immediately, using 1/2 to 1 inch of water or 300 to 600 gallons per 1,000 square feet. The
trees and shrubs should green up within 30 days after application. A single soil treatment, properly
done, should be effective for up to 4 years.
If chlorosis is due to inadequate soil drainage or excessive soil moisture (poor root aeration), the
problem should be dealt with accordingly. Avoid overwatering. Install plastic drain tile, or make
other arrangements to get rid of the excess water.

Offline BCB

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2010, 01:56:56 PM »
Well, this is how I am figuring things now that I have a goodly amount of info…

1.  Too much lime…
2.  Ground too wet…
3.  Ground compacted due to water and tilling…
4.  Maybe an iron uptake problem.  Experiment with a solution to add iron on a couple of plants...
5   Check pH again…
6.  Add compost…

I am going to take ½ of the garden and give it the above attention.  As I mentioned, I do have another garden as a backup so I won’t “starve” this year or next year…

I have never had to take this much concern with a garden in my life.  Hell, as kids we prayed (!) for garden failure—they were work and we didn’t care to do it on our summer vacation from school—dang near turned me on gardening!...

Anyone else care to “chirp-in” I am listening as this is most baffling to me…

Thanks again…BCB

Offline boondocker

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 03:20:38 AM »
This is an interesting thread, I am learning alot by reading. My gardens have always been so so nothing great.
I like the composting idea and that is good advice on gathering leaves from town. I will be there this year with my trailer. :)

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2010, 04:27:03 AM »
This is an interesting thread, I am learning alot by reading. My gardens have always been so so nothing great.
I like the composting idea and that is good advice on gathering leaves from town. I will be there this year with my trailer. :)

  Here's the results of LOT'S of compost, and NO chemical ferts, or sprays.  This is my back garden as of a few days ago,









  You can do it too, just start building your soil up ASAP!

  DM

Offline BCB

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2010, 01:43:34 PM »
Well, I just checked the pH of the soil in the garden that has mostly failed this year…

I used a pH meter (of reasonable quality) and a color test kit…

The pH with the meter was 6.7 and the pH with the colorimeter test was in that ball park as the color is subjective, but it still indicated acidic and not alkaline…

To verify the accuracy of the meter, I added a couple of tablespoons of vinegar to the dirt and retested it as before.  The pH dropped to 5.8 as could be expected…

Therefore I consider the pH meter to be acceptable…

I am going to attempt to add considerable compost to the side that is relatively dry as the end that failed this year is wet—mostly.  I still think that is the problem…

As far as lime addition goes, according to the pamphlets included with the meter and the color test devices, I certainly did not add too much lime as both indicate 6 pounds of hydrated lime to 100 square feet of garden to raise the pH one unit.  My garden is approximately 1600 square feet so that equates to 96 pounds for the entire garden.  I only added a 50-pound bag each season and the pH is still only 6.7…

We can go into all of the scientific stuff we wish to, but I think, plainly and simply, the plants nearly drowned and the soil compacted like concrete…

We shall see next year…

By the way, my backup garden is doing excellent, so all is not lost…

Thanks for all the help and suggestions…

BCB

Drilling Man--My backup garden looks similar, but I have different crops growing...

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2010, 04:01:34 PM »
  I'm with you on the results of your failing garden...  I'd do exactly what you plan to do, to improve it.

  DM

Offline steg

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2010, 08:01:03 PM »
Your problem may be that you are using hydrated lime, I'm pretty sure that it should be sweet lime, the other stuff may be burning the plants.........steg

Online Bob Riebe

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Re: Garden Failure...
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2010, 09:46:03 PM »
Your problem may be that you are using hydrated lime, I'm pretty sure that it should be sweet lime, the other stuff may be burning the plants.........steg
It is caustic, and water soluble.
Agriculture sources say to use with caution.
Hydrated lime has magnesium, is that what you want?

It is one of the reasons for compacted soil often, compost will help, but unless it is under water for a looong time, that will not cause chlorosis.
If that area is continually wet, standing water, or near to that, THAT can cause a form of chlorosis, or have a similar effect.
If this is the condition of the area then you are probably correct, simply too wet, but unless it has been that way for years, that does not explain the decreasing out put of the area.

I have black gumbo in one garden and for some reason it is getting harder (my father always said I put in too much leaves and straw and that makes it hard and globby till it is fully broken down, so I stopped using straw bales, and only apply fully mulched rotted and wet leaves now) in areas (I never use lime) but outside of making digging and tilling harder, plants are growing great.
I had some volunteer potatoes this year that were down at least twelve inches, and while the soil came up in blocks, some eight to ten inches across, the potatoes when I got to them were excellent in size.

At what depth did you take  your soil sample?
Surface or down where the roots are?
If you are at 6.7 why are you adding lime? (At least every year)
 What is  your soil type.
Have you ever just taken a sample down about eight inches where there is no garden and see what reading  you get there?

As Steg said, if you are going to lime, there are much better forms.