Author Topic: Justify this round  (Read 2850 times)

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Offline hornady

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Justify this round
« on: July 22, 2010, 03:41:53 AM »
I have read hundreds of post and different opinions on the best Rifle/Bullet for White tail Deer, but over the last 50 or so years I have known two guys that have used a 338 Winchester Magnum. If this is all you have great, but what other justification could there be for this round on Deer size game, and the two guys that used them used Factory ammo, not reduced loads. The one guy his progression was, 3006, too 7MM magnum, too the 338, I would imagine he was trying to compensate poor marksman ship with more firepower.

Offline Doe

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2010, 06:12:12 AM »
There is no justification, some hunters/shooter like more POWER...BIGGER rounds and if they can afford why not? Just like a person buying a sport car that well do over 180s while the max speed limits in most state is only 70mph go figure  ;). Happy hunting  ;D

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2010, 06:44:35 AM »
I own a 338 Win Mag.
Great round.
I find the recoil similar to 30-06.
There are multiple designed bullets for the rifle.
The 200 grain Ballistic Tips by Winchester would be a great deer round.
Who needs a 7mm bullet to expand to 1.2 times its size when the entry hole starts out that big?
I shoot the Remington 225 Grain Soft points out of mine.
I have shot wild boar with mine.  I liked the reach.  8.5" of drop at 300 yards.  I liked what is did to the pig.  338 hole in, took out the heart and lungs, and a thumb size exit.
Yes it killed him, but it did not turn the meat into jelly.  The 200 and 300+ yard shots may have had something to do with it, but it worked well.
I have the 338 as an elk rifle and have planned to use it on combo deer and elk hunts.
As writers have said if you are going to hunt all over the world with one rifle make it a 375H&H. 
My answer to that is:  If you are going to hunt all over this country with only one rifle make it a 338 Win Mag.
With that said: guys in Africa use 375H&H for deer sized  and smaller animals with great success, the 338 is just an American version of the 375H&H
I have a friend that uses 300 Win mag for all of his hunting.
I thought it was going to explode the Javilina ( about 40-50 pound pig like things) he shot this past winter like a 223 will explode a ground hog.  Nice .30 caliber hole in and out.
Are the belted mags over kill for most North American Game.  Yep.  but as the designer of the 338, Elmer Keith said, It may be too much gun but it beats the alternative.

Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 06:56:48 AM »
It's an incurable disease called "Magnumitis", and is very common among shooters.  I have a friend who has it, he is impervious to recoil (I tell him "no brain - no pain") :D 

Chuck Hawkes has a table that shows the .30-06 Spfd. (180gr.  at 2700) in a 8.0 lb. rifle has  20.3 ft. lb. of energy.  The .338 Win. Mag. (200 gr. at 2950) in a 8.5 lb. rifle has 32.8 ft. lb., over 60% more energy!

If somebody can't tell the difference in recoil between the 2, they better go see a neuraligist ASAP, there is something wrong in the nervous system!

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 07:04:23 AM »
Gosh, in a free country I wouldn't think one would need to justify their choices to anyone.  If he can shoot it there are no ethical issues I can see, and I'm not in the business of judging someone's shooting ability based on the caliber they choose.  Some do seem to have that amazing power however...

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 07:45:01 AM »
It's an incurable disease called "Magnumitis", and is very common among shooters.  I have a friend who has it, he is impervious to recoil (I tell him "no brain - no pain") :D 

Chuck Hawkes has a table that shows the .30-06 Spfd. (180gr.  at 2700) in a 8.0 lb. rifle has  20.3 ft. lb. of energy.  The .338 Win. Mag. (200 gr. at 2950) in a 8.5 lb. rifle has 32.8 ft. lb., over 60% more energy!

If somebody can't tell the difference in recoil between the 2, they better go see a neuraligist ASAP, there is something wrong in the nervous system!
Maybe it's beacuse my 30-06 is a 7.75 pound rifle and the 338 is a 9.25 pound rifle.
One is a Ruger M77 ML and the other is a Winchester M70 Super grade.
Or I guess I could look at it like a Beer.
A 16oz pint and a 24 oz scooner are still just a beer to me.  ;D Are both easily lifted to my mouth.

Offline BBF

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 08:28:50 AM »
I don't even see the word "justification" as germaine in this situation.
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Offline hornady

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2010, 09:02:02 AM »
 I thought I would get a lot of comments on this, as I said in the beginning, white tail deer, but just like all the post I mentioned about the best Rifle/bullet, something that is always missing is, the fact that something that might  be reasonable in Montana or Wyoming, is the last thing you would want in a Pa Deer rifle, heavy timber and thickets, Pa most shots on a 150 pound Deer are under 100 yards, with a 338, well you must not like Deer meat much, As said if you can stretch the distance out, 200-250  yards. It might not be a bad rifle; even a 3006 is too much rifle for most Pa, deer shots.
As too judging a guys ability by the Rifle he uses, well the guy in question, hunted with a 3006. shot at deer, did not drop anything, next year sold the 06, and bought the 7MM Mag, same thing. Last I knew he had sold the 7MM and bought the 338.
So you tell me, was it the rifle the shooter or my crystal ball. .
It just seems strange that some guys will swear and declare this rifle is better than another. Without any consideration for the area the rifle will be used in.
Yes there are Pa, Deer taken at 200 plus yards, but the majority are more like 40 to 80 yard range. And yes everything has to do with shot placement, but you are seeing more and more 243, and 270, and fewer of the big 30 in Pa, yes there are plenty of 06s still being used in Pa, I have one, if I am hunting large fields or Bear, I carry the 06. But if hunting , my regular area it’s the 270, or 3030, why beat your self up with three time the rifle if you don’t need to.

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2010, 09:22:16 AM »
Thats what is great about this country- you have the choice to shoot most any caliber you want without the need to "justify" your choice to anyone as much as you have the freedom to get on the internet and trash-talk your "friends" shooting ability. He may be a crappy shot and think a magnum will kill deer better, but that is his choice. As mcwood said big magnums don't destroy any more meat than other "deer" calibers do, actually 243's wreck much more meat than bigger calibers do as most of the energy is dissipated inside of the deer rather than zipping through without expanding.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2010, 09:27:42 AM »
And to make your ridiculously judgemental story work we can assume that your, "friend" is a world class rimfire shot right?  Obviously he's not just a bad shot.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 09:31:16 AM »
Thats what is great about this country- you have the choice to shoot most any caliber you want without the need to "justify" your choice to anyone as much as you have the freedom to get on the internet and trash-talk your "friends" shooting ability. He may be a crappy shot and think a magnum will kill deer better, but that is his choice. As mcwood said big magnums don't destroy any more meat than other "deer" calibers do, actually 243's wreck much more meat than bigger calibers do as most of the energy is dissipated inside of the deer rather than zipping through without expanding.
I've thought about doing this test for a while now.  During the Missouri urban season it wouldn't be hard at all for me to kill a couple of deer, one with a .243 and another with a 300mag.  Then we could post the pictures and let people guess.

Since I've actually seen the results first hand I feel comfortable that people will discover that there is not some major difference in meat damage between the two.  In a 300 mag most of the energy is burned off in the ground behind the target...  The same would be true of a 338.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 09:42:30 AM »
I've heard of folks using the .375H&H on deer and I suppose if you could only have one rifle to hunt the world then I can understand that choice.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline hornady

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 09:58:06 AM »
In the first place who said he was a friend, I do not consider any one a friend that shoots at and cripples Deer or uses something that will damage the meat to the point it is inedible, And you are going to say with a straight face a 338 at less than 100 yard is a good Deer rifle and will not destroy meat, well I have hunted a few years my self, and have seen what an 06 will do if it hits bone.
In a perfect world every shot is perfectly placed, but as you should know, if not lying to your self, that is not always the case.
By some of the thinking on here an RPG would also be expectable for Deer. Use what you want, I don’t have to hunt with you, some how you just cannot get it that what might be expectable in one area may not be in another

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2010, 10:00:32 AM »
Thats what is great about this country- you have the choice to shoot most any caliber you want without the need to "justify" your choice to anyone as much as you have the freedom to get on the internet and trash-talk your "friends" shooting ability. He may be a crappy shot and think a magnum will kill deer better, but that is his choice. As mcwood said big magnums don't destroy any more meat than other "deer" calibers do, actually 243's wreck much more meat than bigger calibers do as most of the energy is dissipated inside of the deer rather than zipping through without expanding.
I've thought about doing this test for a while now.  During the Missouri urban season it wouldn't be hard at all for me to kill a couple of deer, one with a .243 and another with a 300mag.  Then we could post the pictures and let people guess.

Since I've actually seen the results first hand I feel comfortable that people will discover that there is not some major difference in meat damage between the two.  In a 300 mag most of the energy is burned off in the ground behind the target...  The same would be true of a 338.

Awwww man,
Now why would you have to go and confuse us with evidence when it is so much more fun to form opinions with hearsay and speculation? ;D    

(actually that would be a neat side-by-side test if you could pull it off with near identical shot placement and deer size.)

Offline Swampman

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2010, 10:26:13 AM »
I don't understand ruining meat?  We only keep the shoulders, hams, and back straps.  The rest isn't worth packing out.  A hole in the ribs isn't going to matter.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline john keyes

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2010, 10:56:51 AM »
the neck has lots of good meat
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Offline dukkillr

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2010, 03:07:53 PM »
I don't understand ruining meat?  We only keep the shoulders, hams, and back straps.  The rest isn't worth packing out.  A hole in the ribs isn't going to matter.
I've never understood it either.  Shoot a deer in the shoulder with any centerfire and it's going to blow up that shoulder.  Shoot a deer in the ribs with anything and it's not going to damage much of anything.  It's just the angle the holier-than-thous use to pass judgment on those they don't agree with.  Sometimes they get desperate.  Sometimes they are just internet trolls.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 03:15:02 PM »
that is why I like my 308. and do not like my uncles 270.
With my 308 I can eat all the way to the hole.
My uncles 270 makes so much jelly, it makes Smuckers is jealous.
My 338 has so far proven to be like the 308 and has made very little jelly of the meat.  the heart and lungs were a different story.
But one animal does not make a therory and I guess I need to take it to NC for deer next year and see what it does.

Offline Win 1917

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2010, 04:01:27 PM »
Quote
I've heard of folks using the .375H&H on deer and I suppose if you could only have one rifle to hunt the world then I can understand that choice.

I have old Gun Digest (IIRC) and there is an article where the author used his 375 H&H for deer. As I recall he made up some reduced loads for it and it seemed to work just fine. Downloaded the deer wouldn't notice the difference between it and a 375 JDJ or 375 Win. 

Offline okieshooter

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2010, 07:05:44 AM »
I don't understand ruining meat?  We only keep the shoulders, hams, and back straps.  The rest isn't worth packing out.  A hole in the ribs isn't going to matter.

If I get the chance on a big buck I will put it through the shoulders. A deer, and especially a buck, is tough. I have trailed a big buck with his heart gone for 1/2 a mile before I found him. I want him down ASAP. I shoot a 25-06 normally and want a short trail. I usually get more meat from the neck and other areas than you can get from the shoulders. I will not ruin meat on purpose and sure won't waste it but I want a good killing shot. If the meat is not worth packing out hunt closer to a road. ;D We do our skinning at camp but I know that is not possible everywhere.
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Offline mirage1988

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2010, 07:15:10 AM »
In the evening I take the shoulder shot too if possible to reduce the chance of losing the deer, I'd rather lose the shoulders instead of the whole thing.

Offline Spanky

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2010, 07:22:04 AM »
I have trailed a big buck with his heart gone for 1/2 a mile before I found him.



I doubt it.



Spanky

Offline Casull

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2010, 08:06:15 AM »
Quote
I have trailed a big buck with his heart gone for 1/2 a mile before I found him.



I doubt it.



Spanky

Agreed.  I've shot probably 25 deer through the lungs and have yet to have one run further than 75 yards or thereabout.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Casull

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2010, 08:08:36 AM »
Quote
the neck has lots of good meat

The neck has a fair amount of meat, but I wouldn't call it good (unless you just like silver skin and connective tissue).
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline okieshooter

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2010, 08:47:20 AM »
I have trailed a big buck with his heart gone for 1/2 a mile before I found him.



I doubt it.



Spanky

that is your choice.
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Offline okieshooter

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2010, 08:58:28 AM »
Quote
I have trailed a big buck with his heart gone for 1/2 a mile before I found him.



I doubt it.



Spanky

Agreed.  I've shot probably 25 deer through the lungs and have yet to have one run further than 75 yards or thereabout.


 ::)     I did not say he was hit in the lungs. My grandfather shot him and knocked him down. When we got there to help he was gone. He claims it went close to a mile before we found it. He was hit through the heart by a 30-30. You can make it longer without your heart than you can your lungs.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 09:03:01 AM »
Quote
      I did not say he was hit in the lungs.


I read what you wrote.  Still agree with Spanky.   ::)
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Offline okieshooter

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 09:53:53 AM »
A deer running can cover 1/2 mile in under a minute. Anyone who has never seen a deer do what it is not supposed to be able to do will if they hunt long enough. If it weren't for persistence and hungry kids at home my grandfather probably would never have found this deer. Most people today would go find another one before they trailed one this far. Will most deer shot with a firearm fall within sight? YES. Is it possible for one out of a thousand that is full of testosterone and adrenaline from chasing does make you wonder how it was possible to run off when shot? In my opinion yes.
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Offline buck460XVR

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2010, 12:36:34 PM »
I would imagine he was trying to compensate poor marksman ship with more firepower.


Could very well be. But just cause someone uses a magnum round for hunting deer does not automatically mean they are a poor shot. Dead is dead, and if someone wants to hunt deer with a .50BMG and can do so safely and skillfully, what's the big deal.....a little bit of wasted meat? Very few of us hunt deer primarily for the meat because we can't afford to buy food. Even those with modest weapons and limited budgets have a hard time justifying the cost per pound that their venison costs after figuring the cost of gas to the target range and to the field, lease fees, bullets, licenses, food plots, hunting clothes and initial firearm purchase. If they lose another two pounds of meat becasue they are more accurate with, enjoy shooting more and put the animal down quicker and more humanely  with a .338 instead of a .223, where's your justification for whining about it?
"where'd you get the gun....son?"

Offline RaySendero

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Re: Justify this round
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2010, 02:04:02 PM »
Re: Justify this round

Justify a 338 WM for deer hunting?  Well...OK

Its legal and will kill deer!!!
    Ray