Author Topic: It's a surprise to me... (Read 1044 times)

ironglow · « **on:** July 22, 2010, 06:20:44 AM »

somehow I always figured one's "first amendment (free speech) rights" ...ended where the lying begins. But it is not so according to federal judge Robert E Blackburn..he and the ACLU says lying is perfectly alright.

http://www.gazette.com/articles/rules-101652-law-default.html

dukkillr · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2010, 06:41:43 AM »

Holy CR@P! You want to live in a world where police can put you in jail for lying?

The Wife:"Do you like my lasagna?"
me:"Why yes honey..."
Mr. Law Man: "Sir you're going to have to come with us."

Of course you have a first amendment right to lie. Note that you DO NOT have a right to lie under oath, in an affirmation, or in a way to defraud someone. If he were filling out an application for public housing and military heros were given priority... then you'd have a case.

I agree with what I think your premise is... that this piece of trash is a wretched dispicable person... Fortunately (for that whole freedom thing) being a bad person is not against the law. The judge's reasoning makes sense to me.

A more legally sound reworking of the statute may be able to fix the problem. A showing that the person gained in some way from his lies for instance...

mirage1988 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2010, 06:51:26 AM »

The article says he founded an organization for homeless vets. If he founded it and/or profited from it based on that lie, then is it still ok to misrepresent yourself, Dukk?

dukkillr · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2010, 06:56:43 AM »

Fraud is already a crime. Sure. If you tell people you are a plastic surgeon and they give you money and then you split town that's already illegal. If they want to charge him with fraud you would get no argument from me... but that's not the law at issue here...

mirage1988 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2010, 07:20:11 AM »

Yeah, thats a thin gray line I guess between fraud and free speech.....

dukkillr · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2010, 07:53:32 AM »

I agree that it's a thin line, but the initial poster thought that the first amendment ends when you stop telling the truth. That anyone would advocate that position is scary to me... much more so than many of the tin foil crazy theories about expanding government power often discussed here. Honestly, someone would consider giving the government the power to punish you the instant you don't tell the truth? Seriously?

Try to differentiate between making lying a crime, and lying to commit a crime. The first should not be a crime, the second already is.

beerbelly · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2010, 08:55:29 AM »

Holy CR@P! You want to live in a world where police can put you in jail for lying

You already do! Lie to a cop and he can and will put you in jail. It however is ok for the cop to lie to you! Look it up!
Beerbelly

dukkillr · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2010, 09:25:47 AM »

Oye...

It is not, in itself, a crime to lie to police. If a cop stops you for speeding and you tell him you had a hotdog for lunch (and you really had a hamburger) it's not a crime. If you lie about who you are, you have obstructed justice... once again, a different crime. You can also interfere with an investigation and I'm sure a dozen other things that are crimes that can be committed by lying to police...

And yes, cops can, and do, lie. Around here I would say it's standard procedure, but I'm sure it varies by department and individual officer.

ms · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2010, 09:57:28 AM »

Quote from: beerbelly on July 22, 2010, 08:55:29 AM

Holy CR@P! You want to live in a world where police can put you in jail for lying

You already do! Lie to a cop and he can and will put you in jail. It however is ok for the cop to lie to you! Look it up!
Beerbelly

+1 just watch 48 hours those cops lie all the time.

ironglow · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2010, 01:57:56 PM »

Lying is of course a moral crime...but legally a crime; seems to rest upon who one is or what the lie is. I can recall when one guy pointed a wiggly index finger at all Americans and said.."I did not have sex with that woman...." !
Now, that was apparently was harmless, since he only got in trouble when he lied the same lie to an all-holy congress.
Even then, half the congress sais " everybody lies about that"..which in itself was another lie !
Perhaps the degree of disgust surrounding the habit of lying...more or less depends upon how much any given individual is accustomed to dealing with or in lies. I suppose one could get "used to it"..or inured to it, just as the caribou lost concern with the trans-Alaska pipeline...once it became an intrinsic part of their lives.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2010, 02:27:22 PM »

H. L. Mencken: "If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner."
"Looking for an honest politician is like looking for an ethical burglar."

Charles Peacock: "I'm a politician, and as a politician I have the prerogative to lie whenever I want."

Charles De Gaulle: "Since a politician never believes what he says, he is quite surprised to be taken at his word."

Rick Gaber: "The politician is a type of creature known for its propensity to lie, exaggerate, embellish, and use all kinds of hysterical or bombastic attention-getting."

crustylicious · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2010, 02:33:52 PM »

Clinton lied, but no one died!

jimster · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2010, 04:38:29 PM »

"Clinton lied, but no one died"

I have heard that before. But it does not make it true.

Look up how many active duty soldiers died under Clinton. There were a lot. Thousands.

And to think some people hear this and think it's true...they really think no soldiers died under Clinton. Some people actually think our military was not involved in anything under Clinton, I wonder how they could not know all those places we sent our soldiers.

Soldiers died, while Clinton lied.

The Hermit · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2010, 07:04:34 PM »

As many of you already know, when Donna was alive, we raised 17 troubled boys. Out of the 17, only 2 were incorrigable. I told everyone of them enough times so that it stuck, the thing that I hate most in life is a liar or a thief. The only thing you take to your grave is your reputation.
It's a sad day to find SOME police oficers or folks in authority, who lie. Makes this old guy ticked off.

The Hermit

williamlayton · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2010, 03:32:08 AM »

On a lighter side.

The boys I run with not only lie, they expect you to lie--to disagree and argue--and what is a story that is any good if it is pure truth.
Haruuumph---lie like a dog.
Now, in dealings with any--the absolute truth is the high benchmark all expect and--deserve.
Blessings

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2010, 03:40:58 AM »

again we agree.. never caught a bass under 2 lb,i mean three,no what am i thinking.. it was over five lbs.

slim

wreckhog · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2010, 04:02:28 AM »

Quote from: jimster on July 23, 2010, 04:38:29 PM

"Clinton lied, but no one died"

I have heard that before. But it does not make it true.

Look up how many active duty soldiers died under Clinton. There were a lot. Thousands.

And to think some people hear this and think it's true...they really think no soldiers died under Clinton. Some people actually think our military was not involved in anything under Clinton, I wonder how they could not know all those places we sent our soldiers.

Soldiers died, while Clinton lied.

Yeah, they died due to homicide, suicide, illness, etc. 1 due to hostilities. 75 to terror. Stop being disingenuous.

ironglow · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2010, 05:41:42 AM »

Quote from: crustafarian on July 23, 2010, 02:33:52 PM

Clinton lied, but no one died!

Yes, only a few died in the Bosnian conflict.....to make the world safe for Muslim terrorists..ever wonder why we were there ?

In one instance, quite a few died...THEN Clinton lied, trying to blame a woman...

http://www.carolmoore.net/waco/waco-victims.html

ironglow · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2010, 06:20:23 AM »

Quote from: crustafarian on July 23, 2010, 02:33:52 PM

Clinton lied, but no one died!

Of course, some folks also contend that the deaths of so many in the Murrah Fed building in Oklahoma City is a direct result of the murders at Waco.
Now, that contention may seem unreasonable to some, but if the NAACP can comfortably blame Bush for the dragging death of James Byrd jr, in Jasper, TX...guess they in fairness, must accepot that Clinton caused the death of so many in OK City.

BTW: I don't suppose James Byrd jr was any relation to the late Sen Robert "Sheets" Byrd of W VA...

jimster · « **Reply #19 on:** July 25, 2010, 01:04:11 PM »

Quote

Yeah, they died due to homicide, suicide, illness, etc. 1 due to hostilities. 75 to terror. Stop being disingenuous.

It was disingenuous to say

Quote

Clinton lied, but no one died!

....Note the words NO ONE.

Thousands die under most all presidents, for many reasons, and some you don't know about, all serving their country.
The raid on Somalia was just the tip of the ice berg on the things that go on constantly. I see you didn't mention that in your "stats" either. And that's just one place that was reported. Many are not reported. We should also count the people Clinton killed with our bombs and cruise missles too. Lots of those.

ironglow · « **Reply #20 on:** July 25, 2010, 05:12:42 PM »

lest you forget, during the Kosovo affair, the U.S. under CinC Clinton..bombed the Chinese embassy, and of course many civilians died there, as well as across the country.
http://de-construct.net/?p=5804

  The Somalia disaster (Blackhawk down) was a total botch...our troops "own the night", it was entirely stupid to send them into Mogadishu
..1) during the day 2) without a contingency plan & armor backup.
   One can understand Clinton's unfamiliarity with things military, simply because in his own words, he "loathes the military". But his secy of defense, Les Aspin, should have known better....

   It goes without saying however, not in anyone's living memory has an American administration ordered an attack against so many fellopw American men, women and babies as was done at Branch Davidian in Waco... The total almost neared the total at Oklahoma City, and what did Tim McVey get for his murderous rampage ?

wreckhog · « **Reply #21 on:** July 25, 2010, 06:27:18 PM »

If you combine Somalia with Waco, Bill kicked ass in terms of body counts. I guess that was your point.

jimster · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2010, 10:27:12 AM »

My point was just everytime I hear the "Clinton lied, but no one died" thing I kind of cringe. Lot's of people died, all over the world.

ironglow · « **Reply #23 on:** July 27, 2010, 05:22:49 AM »

Quote from: wreckhog on July 25, 2010, 06:27:18 PM

If you combine Somalia with Waco, Bill kicked ass in terms of body counts. I guess that was your point.

I guess only Wreckhog could feel comfortable with the way Bill "kicked ass" on all those women & kids trapped in the bus which the feds ran armored vehicles over ..and then burned up !
Perhaps Wreckhog can give "Bill" some kind of medal for courage !

beerbelly · « **Reply #24 on:** July 27, 2010, 07:11:34 AM »

Someone also needs to tell him Clinton ran from Somalia with his tail between his legs.
Beerbelly