Did Some .45-70 Shootin'

[Swampman]

I ran about 30 some rounds through my .45-70 today.  The new Nikon Prostaff 2-7X32 tracked real well (as usual) and I used some Winchester 300 grainers to get her on paper.  I don't like them, but they were very accurate.  My goal was to slightly exceed the Remington 405 grain factory load and I was using Starline nickle cases, CCI LR Primers, Remington 405 bullets, and 34 grains of IMR-4198.  The recoil felt exactly like the Winchester 300 grain factory load and the trajectory was close enough that I could shoot my handloads or the Winchester 300s without changing my scope settings.  I don't have a crony but the recoil is a little more than the Remington 405 factory load and 3 shots went 3/4" at 50 yards and a little more than 1" 100 yards.

[dpe.ahoy]

Ya reminded me I need to get mine out and do some playin with it.  Poor thing has only been out 2 times.   Sounds like ya got another of the good ones.  DP 

[The Hermit]

Yes, its getting time to get the 45-70 out and check that everything is still ok. For me, 1" at 100 yards is great. Unless I use shooting sticks, my groups can be covered by the bottom of a coffee cup. While larger than 1", it stll puts the deer down.

  The Hermit

[wreckhog]

Was doing laundry today and killed a bottle of Tide. No one else was home. The neighbor was mowing (loud). Hmmm.

Took those very light 2400/300gr cast loads that somebody gave me after reading that 2400 blows up guns. Was gonna pull em, but what the heck.

Flung the Tide bottle into the woods behind the house and punched holes in it.

[MSP Ret]

2400 blows up guns? Tell me more, it's my favorite 45-70 and pistol powder....<><....

[quickdtoo]

Nice shootin Swampman!! MSP's recommended load of 28gr of 2400 under a 350gr Hornady RN is very accurate, it does cause considerable noise, but it has never blown up my 45-70s. Being a pistol powder, using too little or too much can be detrimental, and maybe is the cause for the confusion that it's dangerous, it was listed on Alliant's website at one time, but they list their modern Reloder powders now. It may also be caused from the change from Herco to Alliant, possibly the old Herco 2400 data wasn't valid with Alliant's 2400 at the low and high end, that's just a guess on my part.

Tim

http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,60552.msg364624.html#msg364624

[gcrank1]

I dont remember where I read it, but loads with new lots of 2400 should be reduced from your 'old data loads', and worked up again. This is the normal, recommended procedure anyway, but who follows it?
As with all of the fast burning powders, a double charge is a danger, but people have been 'blowing up' guns with double charges for a long time and claiming it was a 'normal' load. After all, nobody wants to admit they screwed up.

[wreckhog]

2400 blows up guns? Tell me more, it's my favorite 45-70 and pistol powder....<><....

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

I happened to be shooting xx grains under a xxx cast bullet yesterday, a very light load, kicked like a 357 IMHO. No i would not recommend it based on the article.

[quickdtoo]

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Low Velocity Lead Bullet Chronograph Data

In the beginning there was a question, and it was interesting - can one define the necessary and sufficient conditions such that hard cast bullets will shoot well from Marlin lever-guns with Microgroove barrels? That was 1996.

Thirty thousand bullets launched downrange later, we concluded that we had a reasonable handle on the question. In 1999 we published our small treatise on the results and topic - Modern and Historic Developments in CAS velocity loads "The Use of Pistol Powders in Rifle Cartridges" .

Since then another 50k bullets have been launched downrange. Some might say to confirm and further refine the previous observations; others might say it's been entirely in pursuit of the "art of flying slow", yet others might argue that it's all been an effort to more finely tune the gmdr internal ballistics predictor [an IBP specifically designed to predict low pressure and low velocity loads]. Maybe there's a bit of truth in all.

[Frank V]

From time to time I hear of people blowing up guns using this or that powder. I wish everyone who wants to reload a single round of ammo would invest in one or better two reloading manuals & USE them. I think blowups would be virtually eliminated. It boggles my mind that seemingly intelegent people would reload without a manual. Check the manual against any data gleaned from any forum.
Frank

[manatee1947]

I have been using 2400 for 40 years now, and I have never had any problem that was not caused by me. I use it in 22 Hornet, 357,44 mag & special, 444,and 45/70. Works excellent in all of them.

[petemi]

Swampy, I've got 45.8 gr. of IMR 4198 under Rem 405s for black bear this Fall.  I don't see any signs of high pressure, and the load is MOB (minute of bear).  It oughta sit him back on his heels a bit.  I really didn't notice any more recoil than the 325 gr. Hornady LEs.

Pete

[Swampman]

I wonder how fast it's going?

[petemi]

The chrony is set up down in the gun room and I could poke one through it to find out.  I believe, from the tables, about 1900.

I just went down and shot one.  1929 fps.  The neat part is I hit the 300 yard gong offhand.  Not too bad for an old fart.

I gotta love that .45-70.  It is an extention of my index finger.  Point...shoot....whap....hit.

Pete

[Blackhawker]

.......after reading that 2400 blows up guns.

Over the past two years I've really warmed up to 2400 and use it quite frequently.  Yes, ANY undercharged cartridge can blow up...not just 2400.  A simple thing to keep in mind (sort of a general rule of thumb); if your cartridge is less than half filled with powder (any powder) AFTER the bullet is seated....that is to say LESS than HALF of the remaining volume after the bullet is seated is full of powder, you're asking for trouble.  2400 doesn't take much volume for the amount of "kick" you get out of it.  That being the case, one might use a polyfiber wad to take up excess space when loading larger volume cartridges such as the 45-70.  Either that or move to a heavier load.  This assures that the powder completely covers the flash hole in the back of the cartridge upon ignition...when laying on its side in the firing position.  Otherwise the entire load can go off at once when there is too much "air space"...otherwise known as "headspace" in chemical terms. 
I hope that made sense. 

Flung the Tide bottle into the woods behind the house and punched holes in it.

Wreckhog, I hope you went and picked up that bottle from the woods and disposed of it properly after you were finished annihilating it.  If there is one thing I can't stand is finding people's garbage out in the woods, the desert or any other natural area. 
I just got back from a trip to Wyoming and couldn't believe the garbage I found in some of the open desert.....left by shooters of all things.  That gives us all a bad name.   
A message to all:  Don't give shooters a bad name....pick up your crap!!   

[petemi]

Blackhawker, I gotta agree wid ya on crap in da woods.  When I was a kid, we fished brookies in the Adirondacks and always backpacked in "beyond the last beer can".  Most times, seven or eight miles.  Sometimes we even found trash when we thought we were "safe".  We, Patty and I, camp quite a bit and it annoys the hell out me to find trash within 50 yards of a trash can.  I can't believe people can be so ignorant.

Pete

[wreckhog]

.......after reading that 2400 blows up guns.

Over the past two years I've really warmed up to 2400 and use it quite frequently.  Yes, ANY undercharged cartridge can blow up...not just 2400.  A simple thing to keep in mind (sort of a general rule of thumb); if your cartridge is less than half filled with powder (any powder) AFTER the bullet is seated....that is to say LESS than HALF of the remaining volume after the bullet is seated is full of powder, you're asking for trouble.  2400 doesn't take much volume for the amount of "kick" you get out of it.  That being the case, one might use a polyfiber wad to take up excess space when loading larger volume cartridges such as the 45-70.  Either that or move to a heavier load.  This assures that the powder completely covers the flash hole in the back of the cartridge upon ignition...when laying on its side in the firing position.  Otherwise the entire load can go off at once when there is too much "air space"...otherwise known as "headspace" in chemical terms. 
I hope that made sense. 

Flung the Tide bottle into the woods behind the house and punched holes in it.

Wreckhog, I hope you went and picked up that bottle from the woods and disposed of it properly after you were finished annihilating it.  If there is one thing I can't stand is finding people's garbage out in the woods, the desert or any other natural area. 
I just got back from a trip to Wyoming and couldn't believe the garbage I found in some of the open desert.....left by shooters of all things.  That gives us all a bad name.   
A message to all:  Don't give shooters a bad name....pick up your crap!!   

By woods, I mean my property. Anyone back there looking at litter is trespassing and has a lot more to worry about. Anyway it is now littering my garage which is a whole other issue.

[PawPaw]

2400 blows up guns? Tell me more, it's my favorite 45-70 and pistol powder....<><....

It wasn't 2400, it was Blue Dot.

As I remember the story, several years ago there were some fellows who were using Blue Dot and magnum primers in the .357 magnum and had some excess pressure excursions.  (Ka-Boom).  The general theory was that the load these jazz-bo's used was a lighter than normal load, so that when the firearm was horizontal, the powder was below the level of the primer.  When the magnum primer ignited, it flashed across the top of the powder, igniting the whole top of the charge, creating a pressure spike like a low level detonation rather than a controlled burn.

That was the theory, anyway.  I use 2400, primarily in the .44 magnum.  I use Blue Dot for mid-range .357 loads.  These two powders figure prominently in the bulk of my heavy revolver loads.

The guys over at the Cast Boolits forum have beat this to death.  There's no problem with either powder when you're loading correctly.

[petemi]

Wreckhog, if you want to see the remains of past shooting, come look at my barn  I have dogs and horses and save feed bags.  At least one a week goes out in the trash with blown up jugs  I heard that when I die, they're going to mine lead on my west 40.....I wonder why??

Pete

[bikerbeans]

Tim,

Thanks for the link to "shooting pistol powders in rifles".  Basically you have folks shooting over 80,000 rounds in a controlled setting with very low density loads without issue.  All different types of rifle cartridges, including bottlenecked 30 calibers.  I will continue to "light load" rifle rounds with 700X and Bullseye as I don't see a problem, either from my own experience or the experience of others.  I have no comment on the 2400 or other powders I have never tried them for low velocity plinkers.

Again, if less than <50% load density is the criteria for a gun explosion then the Camp Perry shoot should have provided quite a few destroyed guns as almost everyone shooting a 1911 45 ACP (in the Bullseye shoot) is shooting under a 50% powder charge.

BB

[petemi]

I'm obviously missing a point here.  What are we saving loading down?  You have the brass and the powder, so the bullet is the only up front cost.  You're going to shoot the same bullet, so what's a tad bit more powder?  I've only been reloading a short time, but I've come to one concrete conclusion:  Load to the round that yields the best performance in your rifle.  When I find that, my sights are set for it, and I don't change it.  It's a 168 gr. boattail out of the .308 and a .405 Rem out of the .45-70 and there's lots of other rifles. etc, etc.

I guess is I'm not expressing this the way I mean.  My .308 loves 168 gr. Winchester Supremes.  Good, I accept that fact.  That's all I shoot in it.....red squirrels to black bear.  Every time you change the load you're shooting you've got to sight in again.  I keep all my rifles sighted to the load I like and they like, and that's it.  I don't really care if a 168 gr. .308 is a little much for chipmunks.

Pete

[Swampman]

I can load nearly twice as many rounds while duplicating Remington factory balistics.  I have no need for T-Rex ammo.  I reload to save money.

[bikerbeans]

Pete,

The low velocity load development using pistol powder in rifle calibers is to meet the requirements of some of the competitions that have velocity restrictions on different rounds.  The prevailing wisdom in the Bullseye shooting is to minimize the recoil of the pistol so the shooter can get back on target quickly.  Also, the Bullseye folks tend to think the low recoil rounds are more accurate, I don't shoot Bullseye so no comment on velocity versus accuracy.

I load low velocity loads for a couple of reasons.  One it to let newbies and smaller folks shoot my 45/70, 1911 45 or one of my wheel guns without getting punished by the thumper rounds I like to shoot.  I also load several thousand Bullseye loads a year for a friend of mine and his son who shoot Bullseye competition.  I just started trying to workup a low velocity round to hunt squirrels with  using my 357 Max.  Bandit doesn't like the crack from a 17HMR so I am seeing if he will put up with a subsonic 158 grain lead SWC.  

BB

[wreckhog]

I like shooting 45-70 better than .45 Colt. Must be compensating or sumthing. But I like a mild load that punches a big hole (more compensating ) that lets me shoot more without beating myself up (yet more compensating ) The stuff that makes me feel like an M80 went off next to me is fun sometimes, but not most of the time.

[Blackhawker]

.......after reading that 2400 blows up guns.

Over the past two years I've really warmed up to 2400 and use it quite frequently.  Yes, ANY undercharged cartridge can blow up...not just 2400.  A simple thing to keep in mind (sort of a general rule of thumb); if your cartridge is less than half filled with powder (any powder) AFTER the bullet is seated....that is to say LESS than HALF of the remaining volume after the bullet is seated is full of powder, you're asking for trouble.  2400 doesn't take much volume for the amount of "kick" you get out of it.  That being the case, one might use a polyfiber wad to take up excess space when loading larger volume cartridges such as the 45-70.  Either that or move to a heavier load.  This assures that the powder completely covers the flash hole in the back of the cartridge upon ignition...when laying on its side in the firing position.  Otherwise the entire load can go off at once when there is too much "air space"...otherwise known as "headspace" in chemical terms. 
I hope that made sense. 

Flung the Tide bottle into the woods behind the house and punched holes in it.

Wreckhog, I hope you went and picked up that bottle from the woods and disposed of it properly after you were finished annihilating it.  If there is one thing I can't stand is finding people's garbage out in the woods, the desert or any other natural area. 
I just got back from a trip to Wyoming and couldn't believe the garbage I found in some of the open desert.....left by shooters of all things.  That gives us all a bad name.   
A message to all:  Don't give shooters a bad name....pick up your crap!!   

By woods, I mean my property. Anyone back there looking at litter is trespassing and has a lot more to worry about. Anyway it is now littering my garage which is a whole other issue.

[Blackhawker]

I like shooting 45-70 better than .45 Colt. Must be compensating or sumthing. But I like a mild load that punches a big hole (more compensating ) that lets me shoot more without beating myself up (yet more compensating ) The stuff that makes me feel like an M80 went off next to me is fun sometimes, but not most of the time.

If you like shooting the 45-70 more than the 45 Colt, you need to get yourself a 45-70 Thompson Contender pistol.  Talk about FUN!!!  
....and if you like mild, you can load em down too.  In fact, the T/C isn't designed to take more than standard trap door loads anyway....but it still punches BIG holes!!

[PawPaw]

I'm obviously missing a point here.  What are we saving loading down?  You have the brass and the powder, so the bullet is the only up front cost.  You're going to shoot the same bullet, so what's a tad bit more powder?  I've only been reloading a short time, but I've come to one concrete conclusion:  Load to the round that yields the best performance in your rifle.  When I find that, my sights are set for it, and I don't change it.  It's a 168 gr. boattail out of the .308 and a .405 Rem out of the .45-70 and there's lots of other rifles. etc, etc.

I guess is I'm not expressing this the way I mean.  My .308 loves 168 gr. Winchester Supremes.  Good, I accept that fact.  That's all I shoot in it.....red squirrels to black bear.  Every time you change the load you're shooting you've got to sight in again.  I keep all my rifles sighted to the load I like and they like, and that's it.  I don't really care if a 168 gr. .308 is a little much for chipmunks.

Pete

Good point, Pete, but many of us wonder the same thing, in reverse.  The buffler hunters killed off the Southern Herd with lead bullets traveling about 1400 fps.  Why would you need any more power than that?  The original .30 WCF load (you know it as the .30-30) used a 170 grain bullet at about 2200 fps and was touted as the ultimate knock-down round, the first high-speed smokeless cartridge.  It was used for all North American game, including the big bears.  Why waste all that extra powder making anything faster?

We do these things because we can.  I still load my .45-70 to trapdoor levels and it does everything I want it to do.  I like piddling with my full loads and my powder-puff loads.  I like whacking steel with my .30-30 using a lead bullet and small charges of powder.  They're a lot of fun, inexpensive on the wallet, and easy on the shoulder.  I also like the big boomers.  There is room in this hobby for all these things.

[petemi]

PawPaw, you're a thousand percent correct.  There's room here for all of us.  I'm not much of a paper puncher.  I sight in, get where I wanna be and that's it.  If there's a 'yote down at 400 yards on my south line, as frequently happens, I know which rifle to grab to dump him.  They're all sighted in differently for various purposes, but all at max or close to max loading.  As I said previously, we're not paper punching and the shots can be very long......or short and tough...a 500 lb. blackie in brush at 25 yards.  I don't think I'd try a trap door load on him.  They always talk about the thousands of Buffalo killed.....the  wounded are never mentioned.  The number of shots it took to kill is also never mentioned.  Food for thought.

Pete

[Swampman]

A Trapdoor load will shoot through a black bear at 50 yards.  That's as dead as he can get.

[bikerbeans]

Pete,

I agree with you on bringing enough firepower to the table for Yogi.  My guess is the old 45/70 BP cartridge wasn't perfect for dispatching bison because of the black powder cartridge arms race that went on during the 1870s and early 1880s.   There must of have been good reason for the buffalo hunters to want a more powerful cartridge.  I am glad they did though, because now I can play with my 45/120.  

I will bring some extra 45/120 rounds to Grayling for you to shoot.  It might convince you to ream one of your 45/70s.

BB