Author Topic: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)  (Read 9415 times)

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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2010, 06:09:27 AM »
 ;D
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #91 on: August 02, 2010, 08:33:39 AM »
all cannons is interesting , please post some pictures
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #92 on: August 02, 2010, 01:00:15 PM »
Here is where we are at.

When I first looked at morko's lettering, I assumed the language was going to be Latin or Anglo-Saxon.

I have yet to find a word in Latin.  

I did manage at this point, to translate a word from Anglo-Saxon (Middle English).

The language of Chaucer was Middle English. A more recent concept from the 11th c. thru the 15th c..  Morko's within that time frame.

Oddly enough, within the limited 5 panels with wording, the word "name" appears twice. If it is "name" at all?

Problems: The alphabet is known as, "Black Letter Gothic" . It in itself, is problematic. They had some nasty habits while using it.

Remember; space was limited.

1). It's called, "biting the bow". If a letter ends in a perpendicular and the following letter begins with a perpendicular, one of the perpendiculars might be eliminated. You would then have half of a letter, joined to a full letter as might be the case of the two words "IN NAME", which might become "INNAME", and the NM without the fraction of a space between. Translate that and you are good.

2). Then there is the entire elimination of a letter, which you are understood to know the  presence of. You would have "I NAME", instead of IN NAME.

3). Worse yet, if the phrase contained three words, e.g. "IN THE NAME", you could see the word "THE" dropped entirely and INNAME run together.

Taking the three points mentioned above, "IN THE NAME" could become a challenge to translate.

That's where I am at.  

I am also assuming that what I am dealing with now, is Anglo-Saxon/Old English. That's what it looks like to me now.

r



 
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Offline Incitatus

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2010, 01:19:11 PM »
Perhaps I'll start a new thread...
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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #94 on: August 02, 2010, 01:25:51 PM »
 ;D
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #95 on: August 03, 2010, 03:58:54 AM »
Since you're so good at this marking interpretation, please tell us what you think is meant by 23136, and where did they find paint or other marking instrument that could keep it so well defined after so many years at the bottom of the sea? ;D

 Obviously we've all been barking up the wrong tree here. Those are Arabic numerals, so obviously the Morko was made by the Ottoman Turks (experts in bronze casting).

 "I've just invented the zero!"

 "What is a zero, Hafadallah?"

 "No no Abdul, that's 50 cents. Zero is nothing."

 ;D
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Double D

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #96 on: August 03, 2010, 04:43:28 AM »
Perhaps I'll start a new thread...

Yes please do.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #97 on: August 03, 2010, 05:07:12 AM »
 ;D
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Offline Double D

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #98 on: August 03, 2010, 05:40:27 AM »
I've been over in Kalispell...130 miles west. Got back late yesterday after noon. Pulled the travel trailer over there Sunday for the wife to take care of here mother who is getting radiation treatment at the hospital.  The Hospital has full RV connections in the parking lot...no charge.  Haven't seen that nice of connection in any campground.

Broke the chain on my bicycle last night and and again this morning, won't stay fixed, so it's time for a new chain.  Since the wife called this morning and sthat the hot water tank went out and she says the breaker won't reset, I guess I am headed back to Kalispell in a few minutes...so If I missed the connection of him asking if he could post and him posting--- well....

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #99 on: August 03, 2010, 06:21:19 AM »
 ;D
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Offline Double D

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #100 on: August 03, 2010, 05:29:39 PM »
It's only up hill half way there...new rear derailleur, new chain and new rear brake assembly is all that was needed.  Now I know why the bike was on sale...does anybody have source for a Morko mount for a Mountain bike?

The beyond getting the bike fixed, the rest of the trip was aggravating.  I asked the wife if she had reset the breaker, "Yes!!!! she said.   I should have  been more specific.  "dear did you turn the breaker off and then turn it back on?"  Silly me, it's all my fault for not saying what I mean.

Back to Richard the multilingual and his translating.

 

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #101 on: August 03, 2010, 05:46:32 PM »
The mount for a bike shouldn't be too difficult, though making it so you can reload while on the move would be tricky...

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2010, 06:58:30 PM »
FIRST: let me say that if you are interested in this thread, may I suggest you reread it from the beginning as I have made changes.

SECONDLY: Let me say that this has NOT been an exercise in "translation". It has been an "investigation".

THIRDLY: I may have gone as far as we can go for quite a while. The remaining images are not clear and the project is bogging down but I will continue.

Try this exercise: Take just about any common written word and eliminate the middle letters. Leave only the first 2-3 and the last 2 or so. If it is a 6, 7 or 8 letter word, you should be able to still read it correctly.

A study was recently reported in the NYT, whereby that natural reading skill was proven to be common. After I had read it, I said to myself, "So?  What's new in that?  medieval writers did that regularly as a matter of form".

That my friends, has been the stumbling block that I keep tripping over. The 14th c. scribes showed no mercy when making morko.

Literate individuals can mentally provide the missing letters while simply reading the sentences with the partial words. I have no doubt that you can do it. Try it here:

"sent nces"         "mis ing"          "re ding"         "pr v ide"         "ind v   uals"

Morko is missing alot of letters in the words that are being presented.

It was a common practice to eliminate letters and entire words to save space.

In the case of morko, it was a commissioned piece and not ment to be read by you and I or anyone else for that matter.

The owner knew what he wanted to be reminded of and provided the gunsmith with his "buzz words".

"Our father ..... ..... ..... Heaven". You got it; right?

In morko's time, we might have, "Our fathr wch art heven"

Remember.....SPELLING WAS NOT STANDARD.  Regional differences abound.  Dialect, lack of education was only part of it.  Spelling was NOT standardized until 1755 and even now in Britain, English is spoken as a foreign language in some regions.

About 40 years ago, PBS aired a 6 part show that I taped and still watch. "The Story of English. The Loaded Weapon".  Some of the speakers are still expressing themselves with Middle English as an every day native language.

So what would be unusual for morko's owner to be expressing his thoughts in Old English when he was only a matter of some generations removed from Old English? Today they are a thousand years removed and are still using it.

Middle English is a product of the 1066 Norman invasion of Britain.  The British Old English was sprinkled with Norman French (Anglo French), Old Church Latin, Parisian French (Norman French) and the continental influence.

Morko is a nightmare!

While studying morko it took me a while to notice that the same passage appears on two of the five morko panels. Why?  Must be heavy-duty stuff.  However it does NOT appear the exact same way on both panels. Typical 14th c..

the person who owned the piece, knew what it said in both cases and for that matter, during that time frame, any literate person also knew what was written and being said by the owner.  A dummy like me .....had to struggle over a week to figure out what was done.

Top of the tube:  INAMA (tree) PIA

Should read as: IN NAMA (tree) PIA

Translation: IN = in  &  NAMA = name  &  (tree = Odin)  &  PIA = gracious

IN NAME ODIN GRACIOUS

Not quite my friends. Not quite! We are dealing with an Old English carry over in the language.

NAMA is a title of dignity or rank, or a catagorizing name, or a name appellation, or of reputation or fame. It also means, "the devine name what is told".

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!!

GRACIOUS is even better. It is 14th c. Middle English from the Anglo French, in turn from the Latin "gratiosus", meaning "enjoying favour".

The obsolete meanings are "GODLY" and "MERCIFUL" also "COMPASSIONATE" used conventionally of royalty and high nobility.

It's more like:  I am carrying this, In the name of the devine Odin, my exaulted and compassionate God.

Makes sense to me. You have to allow for the limited space, poor vocabulary, lousy lettering omitted letters and missing words, along with the passionate sentiment of the owner who was Hell-bent on wacking people in the name of his God.

Twas ever thus.

This was my best shot at breaking down morko.  If anyone has a better idea; have at it. As they say on eBay, "I am no expert".  As for me(?), I am just a busman on holiday. This is what I do.  

I was thinking this morning......Victor was only joking but what if this piece was made in the Middle East  and brought back by a crusader type who commissioned it?  Subtle along with bold errors?  They could be intentional omissions as was the practice at this time or possibly a lack of familiarity? The "Crusades" ended 100 years earlier (until George III began this new one) >:(.  It boggles the mind! :-\

SEE ATTACHMENTS BELOW

nb: This was the time of "Wat Tyler's Rebellion" (The Peasant's Revolt) and just after "the plague".  What was morko doing in the Baltic?  Escaping from one or the other?

Richard a.k.a. Sherlock









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Offline dan610324

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill"
« Reply #103 on: August 06, 2010, 01:06:18 AM »
WOW

I got to send charlotte an email to be sure that she follow this investigation
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2010, 04:57:47 AM »
I've gone about as far as I can go with this project.

I have just edited alot of what I had previously written along the way.

I have also added to the thread's name in an effort to clarify what it is about. 

If you have any interest (a few of you do) may I suggest that you reread what has been presented.

Your 'umble servant,
 Richard the .............



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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #105 on: August 07, 2010, 05:01:38 AM »
Thank You LP ! Your work will probably spread quickly .

I do need to go reread some of it .

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #106 on: August 07, 2010, 05:40:56 PM »
 I'd hope that all of the various threads about the Morko would make it to a sticky. So much there to learn about bronze casting, tillers, history, etc........ Heck, even a little about cannons!
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Double D

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #107 on: August 07, 2010, 07:57:09 PM »
The original post about making the gun is linked in the reference sticky. 

I think there is at least one and possibly two other threads on Morko.  There is no way to merge threads, wish there was as I would roll them all together. What done is done.

I found two and linked them to the original post.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #108 on: August 08, 2010, 05:07:17 AM »
I'll link mine to it as well.

Offline Double D

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2010, 05:24:13 AM »
Great I missed that one...

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #110 on: August 08, 2010, 06:00:57 AM »
 ;D



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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2010, 06:46:29 AM »

Where's this "Sticky" thingy?


RC: I had to bite my tongue so hard I drew blood (oy that hoits), so please don't offer up any more of these almost impossible to pass up straight man lines. You should know that for an inveterite amateur blue comic like myself to ignore such sinful temptings takes mucho prayer. :P

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2010, 07:00:15 AM »
Stickies are at the top of the board. References: Cannon FAQ's, Posting Picture Books, the web, and Cannon Plans


When you open that post scroll down to the the other cannon projects section and look for Gary casting a bronze cannon

Click on link and open the post.  Go to the last couple of post and you will find links to the other related posts.


Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #113 on: August 09, 2010, 11:42:40 AM »
I think maybe I should clarify something here. The language on morko is Old English.....which is available for translating examples BUT...................don't get the idea that the gun is English. Could be but a kinda doubt it.

See......Old English is Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Saxon is like Old Norse.  

It's a West Germanic language that is close to Old Fresian.

It is from the North Germanic group of languages.

An Old Fresian dialect, which is still spoken in parts of Germany, The Netherlands and Denmark today.

As for "England", Danish and Norwegian settlers in Britain, spoke an Old Norse related language.

So my references to "Old English", are a linguistic reference, not a physical placement.

Kapish?

What interest me in the middle of all of this, is just what was happening around the Baltic at the time of morko's birth.

Well for one, the Roman Catholic church wasn't doing so hot from what I've read. In 1378 there was "The Great Schism of the West". They had three (03) simultaneous popes. This might be a case for arming ones self if sides were being chosen.

In 1381 There were "Peasant's Revolts" that were going on in England.

In 1389 Danish and Swedish troops defeated the Swedish King Albert.

In 1397 the Kalmar Union, united Norway, Sweden and Denmark into one kingdom.

In 1399 King Richard II of England was deposed. He was king from 1377.

So whomever commissioned morko, could have come from anywhere.

Alot of people were floating around with guns.

rc





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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #114 on: August 09, 2010, 12:45:45 PM »
A minor detail this far after the fact but Richard II was deposed in 1399.
GG
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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #115 on: August 09, 2010, 01:24:31 PM »
Step to the head of the class George ;) 

Actually what I was writing was that he was having alot of trouble in the 1390's and was deposed in 1399 but I left half of it out by cutting corners. My bad!

Well at least one person is reading what I am struggling with.

Someone thought this might be a rune for "Made in Finland" ;D
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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2010, 05:14:28 PM »
With 36,695 people on GB, someone has to know more than I do. What is this?  It appears 3 times on morko. Right side breech, right side barrel and left side breech.



I have never seen anything like it before. It's the size of a letter. A horizontal stroke before it, may belong to it but I'm not sure.

rc
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #117 on: August 11, 2010, 06:36:36 PM »
Step to the head of the class George ;) 

Actually what I was writing was that he was having alot of trouble in the 1390's and was deposed in 1399 but I left half of it out by cutting corners. My bad!

Well at least one person is reading what I am struggling with.

Someone thought this might be a rune for "Made in Finland" ;D

Now that I see it enhanced I dont think that was any scratch to see if it was gold . It was a very fine tool and deliberate , to me anyway . There isn't an overrun on it no long out of control streaky scratches .

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #118 on: August 11, 2010, 07:01:56 PM »
Step to the head of the class George ;) 

Actually what I was writing was that he was having alot of trouble in the 1390's and was deposed in 1399 but I left half of it out by cutting corners. My bad!

Well at least one person is reading what I am struggling with.

Someone thought this might be a rune for "Made in Finland" ;D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Forum "Road-Kill" (MORKO TRANSLATION PROJECT)
« Reply #119 on: August 12, 2010, 04:23:38 AM »


I don't believe so. Here it is enlarged.

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