Looks like Arizona's law works!!

[gstewart44]

So you think you can meet fixed cost by selling less at a lower price ? If so then it would seem that the 12 or 35 million illegals are really really helping the economy while being here . I mean if they are selling more and getting way more than its worth now .

OH GEE, you are a democrat ! sorry ! one of the spend your way out of debt guys.
[/quote]

Wow Shootall you are so far off base with that statement that it is laughable.  I have been in business for 30 years and currently have 6 offices with 47 (all legal) employees.  We have weathered the economic ups and downs over 3 decades and I haven't had to lay anyone off.  We all have seen a decline in certain benefits and I have taken several paycuts in order to keep the business intact.
 In any business it is not the fixed costs that are the biggest margin....it is the employee costs.   That is why employees are usually the first to feel it when the economy turns down.  

Since you feel so strongly about fixed costs, please cite one example of any business that has raised its prices during a period of falling demand and oversupply and has been successful.

Democrat??? You know not of what you speak.    "Spend your way out of debt"?  Now you are just throwing out personal attacks (yes personal as everyone know that "spend your way out of debt" is a sign of stupidity).

[SHOOTALL]

The producers of copper pipe and fittings have raised their prices , went up wed  6% more , Plastic pipe and fittings went up , water heaters , AC units and heat pumps , steel pipe and fittings . All of these products have gone up several times in the last 18 mos. Why ? so they can meet fixed cost and stay open . So far they are hanging on.
I have only been in business for myself for 20 years and in the business since 1972 . I wasn't as lucky I cut from ove 125 to under 30 when construction fell off. Funny thing is as the decline started the national home builders came to the subs and told us what they would pay for the work. In many cases it was below our cost. Long story short many if not most who were doing their work stopped doing it and they picked up ne subs. here it is 24-18 mos later and several of the builders are either out or in trouble because quality went down and alot of those new subs are out of business because the didn't cover fixed cost , they didn't even know their cost . I have had to raise my cost to meet fixed cost and reduce those cost when possible - by selling off trucks and asking for and getting rent reduced  etc. We went from installing plumbing in over 900 homes in 2007 to 64 in 2009 WE NOTICED as did our suppliers and workers.
BTW how do you really know all your workers are legal ? Their ID ? everyone I ever hired was checked . After about 2004 we called SS and verified . Still about 14 had to bring in paper work to clear up some issues . 3 did have correct paper work and were legal . The others when given the request never came back even to get their checks. 

[gstewart44]

SH - all of my employees have had I-9 Federal background checks and are completely clear.   That I am sure of  and wouldn't have it any other way.  

I see your point a bit about how costs for materials affect your business.   My brother has been devastated over the past two years due to the economy.   He is an AC/Heating contractor in 3 states for 20 years.   He built it up to a large company with 12 work vans and 35 employees.   Due to falling demand (economic slowdown = fewer new houses)  he could not keep all his employees busy.   No new work= no new money = layoffs.   He is now down to a skeleton crew and only 3 vans.  

The cost of copper that you mention is being driven by our current wars.    Copper is going to the billions of bullets being churned out.   Steel started going up in 2004 with all the building going on in China.
Back to the original discussion I think it can easily be boiled down to dollars and cents if you look past the fact that they have broken the law to get here.
1)What is the true cost of the ILLEGAL immigrants here?   Taxes going for subsidized food, housing, healthcare, money leaving the country (some 2 billion annually), crime and enforcement, on 35 million people.  All of these things take away from Americans and LEGAL immigrants who live here.

2)What is the true financial addition  to our economy  that the illegals provide? Do they provide menial labor for agriculture? yes.  But so do LEGAL immigrants. Do they provide cut rate labor in the construction industry?  Yes.  They and the employers that hire them  are hurting the American worker.   And after dealing with families that have been layed off for more that two years I know that many Americans  would do any kind of job to provide some income for their family. 

[SHOOTALL]

I do HVAC also from over 600 homes many with 2-3 systems to in the 50's . We had 47 trucks now less than 20. All the people ever hired filled out and had checked the I-9 form . Trust me when I say its not fool proof .
I guess my real point is the movement of 12 million or more likely 35 million in no way can have a positive effect on our country in the short term . Making them all citizens won't either IMHO. So when something is done and most likely something will have to be done lets do it in the most cost effective ( no higher taxes ) that we can.
And yes the war has been making cost of material inflate .

[WylieKy]

I truly think you will see just the opposite.   When supply is in excess due to overproduction or decreased consumption, market prices go down to encourage more buying.  

Fixed pricing 101:
Lets say your mortgage is 100.00 a month, your truck is 100.00 a month, insurance is 100.00 a month, materials-100.00 a month, taxes, 100.00 a month.  So, total expenses: 500.00 a month. So you're going to NEED to make 500.00 a month.  If you are selling 1000 units, you can sell them for .50 each and still stay above water.  If sales drop, and you only sell 750 units, they're going to have to sell for .67 each.  What this means is that a business operating close to it's minimum budget can't absorb lost sales at all.  The lights have to be on, the presses have to work, the truck has to run, etc....  MANY MANY MANY business are running at this "sustenance" level of operation. When the illegals go, taxes aren't going to drop overnight. Their rent isn't going to be cheaper next month.  In the interim between the illegals being gone, we'll likely go into a recession or even a depression.  We'll come out stronger in a few years, but in the meantime, say hello to bread lines and poverty for many that know steak and wealth today.  I've said repeatedly that this reform is exactly what the country needs for the sake of our security, but that security isn't free and folks need to be prepared for the consequences.  

And you  know something,  I admire them for being willing to leave their home land and often times their families, sneak into a foreign land at the risk of arrest or worse.  Share housing and vehicles with a bunch of other people to conserve money. And do whatever jobs they are asked to do in most cases.  How many of us can honestly say they would be willing to do the same?  But that does not mean I think our country should continue to allow them to do it.  

I agree with this exactly.  Too many of the more simple minds here think believe the illegals are inherently evil.  Most are not.  But for the grace of god any one of us could have been born in Mexico.  Remember, you don't get to pick your parents.  I don't blame them one bit for wanting to better their lives.  If I were in their shoes I'd want to come here too.

The problem is that our government and our businesses have turned a blind eye to their job.  It would not be difficult to solve this problem.  The second the penalties for hiring illegal workers outstrips the benefits the problem will solve itself.  Real fines, real publicity, and REAL ENFORCEMENT of labor laws will make all the other problems go away.

Exactly, gentlemen.

[Brett]

I truly think you will see just the opposite.   When supply is in excess due to overproduction or decreased consumption, market prices go down to encourage more buying.  

Fixed pricing 101:
Lets say your mortgage is 100.00 a month, your truck is 100.00 a month, insurance is 100.00 a month, materials-100.00 a month, taxes, 100.00 a month.  So, total expenses: 500.00 a month. So you're going to NEED to make 500.00 a month.  If you are selling 1000 units, you can sell them for .50 each and still stay above water.  If sales drop, and you only sell 750 units, they're going to have to sell for .67 each.  What this means is that a business operating close to it's minimum budget can't absorb lost sales at all.  The lights have to be on, the presses have to work, the truck has to run, etc....  

And your prospective customers will buy their widgets from the manufacturer who is holding his price at .50/unit taking away even more of your sales.   I think you would find it more advantageous to find was to lower your fixed cost.  Refinance your mortgage, lay off some of the dead wood, work with your materials suppliers, etc.   Then maybe you could even lower the cost of your widgets a few cents and get some of your competition's customers to buy from you.  Why do you think Wal-Mart has killed all of their competition?  Do you think they do it by charging more than the competition?  I'll put my economics teacher up against your any day.

[SHOOTALL]

Brett that they might right until the go out of business .

[WylieKy]

I think you would find it more advantageous to find was to lower your fixed cost.  Refinance your mortgage, lay off some of the dead wood, work with your materials suppliers, etc.   

We're not in a glut anymore.  Most companies are operating at a bare bones capacity as it is.  Most of these companies HAVE refinanced their mortgage, laid off the dead wood, and sacrificed quality materials for crap from china.  Now they're shutting down.  Remove 12-30,000,000 consumers from that and see how many more tip over. Your theory would have been valid in 1990 or even 2000.  2010 is a whole different year.  I'm sure your economics teacher did a great job of teaching you about the economy 5-10 years ago.  Might want to audit a current class.

[Brett]

More like 30 years ago but the last I checked we still live in a Republic where the consumer has a large influence on product pricing.    99 percent of those 35 million illegal immigrants are not spending money on new homes or new durable goods such as major appliances or automobiles.  So even if all 35 million of them were to go home tomorrow it would hardly effect General Electric's or General Motor's bottom line in any way.  And as far as produce and cloths goes we import better than 80 percent of that stuff so again no major hit to US companies.

I walked threw the produce isle at Wally-Word this afternoon, guess where most of the produce was from - Mexico.  So if the Mexican illegals go home will Mexican farmers in Mexico loose their farms because there are no Mexican's left to buy there produce at your local Wally-World in the US?      

[powderman]

Remove 12-30,000,000 consumers from that and see how many more tip over.



A risk well worth taking. Rapes, robberies, violent crime would drop drastically. Drunk driving, fatal car wrecks, jails would be less crowded, hospitols might acutally  be able to make ends meet, no more overcrowded schools, no more printing everything in spanish as well as English, which should not be done anyway. This is America, we speak English here, no more press 1 for ENGLISH, which should NEVER be done. Most of their money supports mexico, not America. I see no downside here. POWDERMAN. 

[SHOOTALL]

More like 30 years ago but the last I checked we still live in a Republic where the consumer has a large influence on product pricing.    99 percent of those 35 million illegal immigrants are not spending money on new homes or new durable goods such as major appliances or automobiles.  So even if all 35 million of them were to go home tomorrow it would hardly effect General Electric's or General Motor's bottom line in any way.  And as far as produce and cloths goes we import better than 80 percent of that stuff so again no major hit to US companies.

I walked threw the produce isle at Wally-Word this afternoon, guess where most of the produce was from - Mexico.  So if the Mexican illegals go home will Mexican farmers in Mexico loose their farms because there are no Mexican's left to buy there produce at your local Wally-World in the US?      

Who cares about the Mexican farmer ? the store will lose , the American trucker will lose the town with less tax income will lose , The american buying a new home will lose because they can't rent the old one to "illegals" or sell it to them. 

[mechanic]

We have had three presidents that deported LEGAL immigrants during times of crisis...one was Roosevelt during the depression.  And we're not talking LEGAL immigrants, are we?

[SHOOTALL]

 Roosevelt also put legal US citizens in concentration camps and forced us into WW2 ( maybe the right thing to do but not the will of the people.) Excuse me for not getting excited at the prospect of having another pres like him. He did more to make America socilist than anyother pres until maybe now.

[Dee]

where do you get the idea they work for less that's BS with regard to trades . And by your own words they buy cars and trucks , houses , gas and food . These buying habits do increase the profits of the sellers , the trucking companies that the goods are shipped on etc.
Right or wrong the illegals are intergrated in our economy and have an impact good or bad. If 12 million people stop buying food it will be noticed . Most likely when prices rise to make up for lost sales  

I truly think you will see just the opposite.   When supply is in excess due to overproduction or decreased consumption, market prices go down to encourage more buying. 

Yes it will. When demand goes down, the costs go down. Sitting on the shelf is not making money, and neither is long term storage, and decay of the product.

[wreckhog]

In the last few years, credit has gotten tighter and bankruptcy laws have gotten tougher. What that means is that a small business that is not being run well goes out of business that much sooner. That is a good thing.

[wreckhog]

One thing I find interesting from this thread is that illegals make just as much per hour as Americans. Why is that? Why would employers pay the same, especially in this econmy where there is a surpls of potential employees? Do illegals work harder?

[SHOOTALL]

One thing I find interesting from this thread is that illegals make just as much per hour as Americans. Why is that? Why would employers pay the same, especially in this econmy where there is a surpls of potential employees? Do illegals work harder?

First we hired only people with good papers  that later were found to be not so. That said when work was booming there were not enough people to fill the positions aval. in some cases. But more important the return on our investment was greater in many cases. When you pay a man 18 an hour your cost are fixed . What is not fixed is how much production a man gives you . In many cases the mexican (as some want to use) gave more production with fewer mistakes . Often they missed less time and loved over time.
Many will try to call that a cut to the American worker , not so we had maybe 30 "mexican" workers out of 130 total. The natural American workers were the best and leaders , most had been around the trade for some time. Problem is alot of kids getting out of school have been brainwashed they don't have to work hard .

[beerbelly]

Every time an illegal worker is found, every one from his immediate supervisor, all the way to the CEO of the company should do a year and a day. A felony, and lose their right to vote.
                                Beerbelly

[SHOOTALL]

Every time an illegal worker is found, every one from his immediate supervisor, all the way to the CEO of the company should do a year and a day. A felony, and lose their right to vote.
                                Beerbelly

Why is that BB ? They show ID , green card and SS cards that all look perfect. We call soical security and they give the guy a clean bill and we keep him  working . I'm sure you already know we have to hire him before we can check
.Then we have two days to do so . And so you know we have to check everyone even family that we saw born. In a year or two we get sent a letter stating he needs to come by SS and clear up some paper work or we can collect it and pass it to then with in two weeks , we never see him again at least not using the same name. And no we do not hire him under the new name. We had one we found out after 3 years . He ask me if i would go to see his lawyer with him . I did , the lawyer had been a govt. attorney , the best part - he looked at the guys ID then told him where he came into the country . He told him who made each ID and the city he got them from. Think about that . I hired him to teach us what to look for and it cut way back on the bad ones. But as we learn they get better at making the ID's . You realize the ID's are made on the same machines real ID's are . In Va. they were at one time being made at the DMV by DMV workers wanting some side money.

So sit back and spout off all you like it just shows your total lack of knolege on the subject IMHO.

[beerbelly]

I'll bet if it were law you would not find any illegal's working here. Hell I bet you know when you hire them. But with a wink  and a nod and I didn't know, when they are caught would be a thing of the past.
                                 Beerbelly

[powderman]

Identity theft is also a crime. For just plain ol folks wanting to work, as some here say, they sure rack up the crimes don't they??? POWDERMAN.