Author Topic: A question of Ethics (Read 1700 times)

Land_Owner · « **on:** July 30, 2010, 04:25:13 PM »

An associate at work offered her Walther PPK for sale. It bites her hand when she shoots it so she purchased a 40 cal Glock.

I was interested and sight unseen offered $350.00. She said "I trust you."

From there we went on line together to GunBrokers.com for comparables. Hers was a year and 2 months new, purchased from Bass Pro, shot 25 or less times, Stainless, with one mag. On the Net there were a lot of PPK's in the $600's, $500's, and $400's. One was for $350.00 and claimed NIB, SST, one mag - just like hers.

We cemented the deal for $350.00. I wrote her a check. She took it. I wrote out a Bill of Sale and made two copies. She and I signed it.

Now, looking through her box, taking out the foam inserts, we found the original Receipt from Bass Pro...over $620 incl. tax new.

Right then one part of me was feeling like I took her to the cleaners - the other was saying what a savvy deal I just made. We departed "friends" but I have this nagging in my gut feeling that I should offer and ante up another (say) $100 to $150. I am "sleeping on it".

There are other SST PPK's on the Net for $395.00 to $495. I don't feel so badly right now...but that will pass!

PowPow · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2010, 04:47:14 PM »

Did she have the knowledge of what she paid for it when you offered $ 350?
I have always heard something is worth exactly what a buyer and seller agree to.
Timing and effort of sale is part of the deal.
Think of the stuff sold here with a lot of haggling over $5.00.
Could be that she values her time and you BOTH got a great deal.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2010, 04:54:42 PM »

can't say that she did or did not have recollection of the original price before we "inked the deal". she sure did after the receipt surfaced. she was good with my purchase even after, or so she said. she wanted someone to have her gun that would take care of it, USE IT, carry it, wanted it to keep and not to resell. She got all of those and MORE in me. I didn't even know she had her CCL. Now she is on my "reconnoitering" list when I go to the property to shoot the guns, she is automatically invited. I may have some "Buyer's Remorse"...but not too much!

1marty · « **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2010, 05:06:46 PM »

I have a PPKS and $350 sounds about right in the type of transaction you are talking about. I went to a couple of local stores to sell it and both quoted around $250 as a trade in. Although I don't have experience with Bass Pro purchasing handguns I did have experience with Gander. I saw a Beretta 380 and when I went to the Beretta site I realized they were charging $100 more than the MSRP. I called them and they said the price was correct since they'll "personally" take care of the gun "cleaning" etc-whatever that means. Plus I'd be a member of their "club". I told the guy it sounds like a crock.
The PPKS has a MSRP of around $620 however a private store or internet store you can get it for $520.
PS-I put some hogue rubber grips on the gun and it completely eliminated the "bite".

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2010, 05:35:16 PM »

land owner,
As you know New is new.
Used is used.
N frame Smiths and Sig P220 series are almost $1,000 new but sell in the 500 to 600 used.
My M29 was a new in 1991 gun that the guy before me paid $500 for. He shot it for 1/2 a box and walked back down stairs and traded it in for a new $350 Glock 17 strait across. The owner of the shop looked at me after the guy went back up stairs to shoot his new glook and I bought the M29 for $350.
If you want to, do what I do when I buy guns from friends.
I tell them "If you want it back with in the next year I will sell it back to you for the same amount".
No questions asked. After a year if I want to sell it I do. I have had a few come to me and ask if they could buy this rifle or that back and I sell it.

Flash · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2010, 02:47:32 AM »

The PPK will only sell for what the market will bear. If anything, she is the victim of internet prices, not you.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2010, 03:31:41 AM »

A friendly gesture might be to load her a couple boxes of .40 for her new pistol, and offer to take her shooting. Ultimately, you paid the price she was asking. It was not that far out of line, and she could have done a little Internet searching prior to selling you the gun if she was really interested in finding an accurate asking price.

Larry

spruce · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:34:02 AM »

Just because someone is asking an outrageous price on the internet doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get it.
Sure, she probably could have gotten more by selling it on the net, but by the time you figure in FFL fees, etc she may well have ended up with about what you gave her. Another downside is she may have had to wait weeks for it to sell. This way she has the money right now.

I wouldn't be concerned about the original new purchase price - it really has no bearing on what the value is now. As an example next time you trade cars try telling your friendly dealer how much you paid for it new and see if he gives you more money for it!

You offered her what it was honestly worth to you and you weren't trying to make a fast buck off of someone's misfortune so I say it's a fair deal for both of you.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2010, 05:16:15 AM »

Quote from: 1marty

...I told the guy it sounds like a crock.

I like the way you think!

Quote from: 1marty

...put some hogue rubber grips on the gun...

The gun has a funny grip for a Walther. Same as all others, however it does not "close" on the butt seam. I took the grip off and there appeared to be a concave portion on one side, like the grip wasn't fully formed in the mould, or it had become too hot and melted(?). So the seam is "open" like a long narrow upside down "V" for about 25% of its lower length and NONE of the bottom of the grip behind the magazine touches. Weird. Could Smith & Wesson's "Quality Control" have overlooked this?

Quote from: Bigeasy

A friendly gesture might be to load her a couple boxes of .40 for her new pistol...

That's a great idea, however I will have to purchase dies for a 40, which isn't in my arsenal. She is already automatically invited to go shooting. Thanks!

Quote from: mcwoodduck

I tell them "If you want it back with in the next year I will sell it back to you for the same amount".
No questions asked.

This is good too. I am thinking on this and when we're shooting together, I'll ask her if she is interested in this deal.

BlkHawk73 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2010, 06:05:48 AM »

If she had no idea and while not stupid was just innocently ignorant of it's value, it would be best to offer up a bit more to her be that money or something else. Of course most wouldn't and simply take the deal and run with it having no remorse at all (such a great society we have - me, me, me). To those folks, having one's respect ad admiration is far behind having a few extra dollars in their pocket. Sad...

1marty · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2010, 07:13:36 AM »

I have the ppkS and the plastic grips sucked. Had a number of issues with it when when I bought it (slide jammed, trigger pull was terrible). Sent it to Walther and now the gun handles and shoots great.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2010, 07:19:25 AM »

If you are feeling bad go into a local gunshop and find out what they will give you in trade for a new Glock. This is what she would have been or was offered. Make up any difference to salve your soul. Sounds about like what they would have offered her, and I'll bet that is where she came up with a $350 figure.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2010, 07:36:48 AM »

...and so it starts. Took the gun apart to clean and lube. The ejector came off. No big deal really, EXCEPT, putting it back on, the ejector spring took a sailing hike across the room and has gone AWOL.

----AND----

It is on the RECALL List for the decocking mechanism.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2010, 08:40:37 AM »

A high energy flash light will help find parts. Look at low angles and look for long shadows. You will be suprised at what kind of a shadow a small spring will cast.
Sending it back in for the recall and having them fix it is only going to add the cost of shipping it back. Then it's fixed.
Still think you got a square deal.
I paid about $300 for my PP a few years ago.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:03:24 PM »

Quote from: Land_Owner on July 31, 2010, 07:36:48 AM

...and so it starts. Took the gun apart to clean and lube. The ejector came off. No big deal really, EXCEPT, putting it back on, the ejector spring took a sailing hike across the room and has gone AWOL.

----AND----

It is on the RECALL List for the decocking mechanism.

Sounds like she owes YOU money........lol

Larry

Swampman · « **Reply #15 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:07:30 PM »

I was once offered a new Model 36 S&W for free. I paid $100.00 for it.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #16 on:** July 31, 2010, 05:22:51 PM »

I wanted to shoot that gun today. I made 380 and 223 bullets instead. About 700 of them in total. My blue PPK was shipped back to Smith for the decocking mechanism fix. It works fine now. Didn't cost me anything, except time and some anxiety shipping through UPS and not knowing if one of their "sticky fingers" would leave me with a claim instead of a gun. Worked out though.

williamlayton · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2010, 05:32:17 AM »

#1. I don't find any flaws in the deal or any attempt to get the best deal possible. Sounds to me like a good sound and fair deal.
I have always liked the grips on my PPK (Interarms).
Bite on a PPK is a normal occurance.
Satan will always try and make you feel like you got taken or took advantage--doesn't mean it is so.
Blessings

smong2000 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 01, 2010, 07:02:05 AM »

I appreciate your dilemma. I missed out on a couple nice guns a while back in a similar situation. An uncle was moving and wanted to get rid of them and asked if I was interested. Of course I was so he asked me to give him a fair price for them. Now I'm in a moral problem, I didn't want them enough to pay what I would call a 'fair' price, which for me was what I could sell them for here or on an internet site. I told him that I wasn't in a position to give him a fair price and to pursue other options. He went to a gun dealer and sold them for 1/4 what I called fair. I was sick about it for a while but that went away quicker than the guilt I would have had if I gave him what the dealer paid. Gotta go with your gut sometimes, WGACA.

By going over market prices with your friend before you sealed the deal, and allowing her to see the potential value you did the right thing in my opinion. Any you are still friends.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #19 on:** August 01, 2010, 08:56:45 AM »

So far as I know we're still friends. The deal went down on Thursday mid-day. I have not talked to her since then. I work in an adjacent building and won't see her again until Monday morning. Sorry to hear your Uncle took the lower path. Sure would have been nice of you to offer a value, give him the alternatives, and let him make the decision. Kind of what I did.

I am feeling OK about it all though (thanks William).

buck460XVR · « **Reply #20 on:** August 01, 2010, 09:14:58 AM »

Seems to me there was nothing else you could have done. You took her to legitimate gun sites and showed her what the real value of her gun was. You made an offer of what you thought was fair at the time and she accepted that offer with confidence that it was a fair offer. Nothing unethical there at all. What she originally paid for the gun new has no bearing of it's value now used.

krod47nw · « **Reply #21 on:** August 02, 2010, 05:54:51 AM »

I don't know how the prices are at Bass Pro, but there is a Gander Mountian near me and their prices are high. Their Glocks for instance run about $100 higher than anyone else in the area.

You are also looking at the price she paid including sales tax. Start with the price before tax.

I think $350 is a fair offer.

That said, If you are feeling guilty, and she is a friend, ask her if she feels the price was fair.

Kevin

bulletstuffer · « **Reply #22 on:** August 02, 2010, 10:16:04 AM »

Land Owner

This is clearly a matter of conscience. If you would have offered her $100 it would have been a question of ethics when you felt $350 was a fair price. You asked her if she was still ok with the deal when the receipt was found and she was. She now has a shooting buddy and friend as you will try to make up for the slight difference in price she "might" have gotten if she went to a dealer. She will come out better in the end with you as a friend

Anyone with a good heart would always have the same feeling when buying something from a co worker, friend or family member.

Good luck,

Bulletstuffer

bearmgc · « **Reply #23 on:** August 03, 2010, 08:40:13 AM »

Quote from: PowPow on July 30, 2010, 04:47:14 PM

Did she have the knowledge of what she paid for it when you offered $ 350?
I have always heard something is worth exactly what a buyer and seller agree to.
Timing and effort of sale is part of the deal.
Think of the stuff sold here with a lot of haggling over $5.00.
Could be that she values her time and you BOTH got a great deal.

I agree. What she considered fair, you got for an amazing deal. Do you feel guilty because she is a woman? Would you feel the same if it was a man? Then likely you are suffering needless worry. I am a woman, and can say that , at times it was more important to get things done, than hassle over the minute details. Its a woman thing. We are not linear thinkers like men. And we are not as likely to perseverate over money, as men are prone to do. Thinking about it, I'm sure you can see this.

PowPow · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2010, 09:41:09 AM »

Quote from: bearmgc on August 03, 2010, 08:40:13 AM

...perseverate over money, as men are prone to do...

Perseverate?
You can't use words like that here and expect to be understood.
Well, maybe you can.
No, I am pretty sure you can't.
But I'm not sure.
I'll have to think about it for a while.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2010, 10:39:45 AM »

Landowner , you offered what you were willing to pay , she took it , enjoy your new gun she enjoyed your money.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #26 on:** August 03, 2010, 02:36:42 PM »

Quote from: PowPow

Persevervate?
You can't use words like that here and expect to be understood.
Well, maybe you can.
No, I am pretty sure you can't.
But I'm not sure.
I'll have to think about it for a while.

Make it stop. Make it stop. I am linearly thinking about getting what's left of my back side up after ROFLMAO.

Quote from: Land_Owner

she wanted someone to have her gun that would take care of it, USE IT, carry it, wanted it to keep and not to resell.

I hear you bearmgc. Hers was an emotional detachment that she was not happy having it sit in her closet while she used the 40 cal. She knows I am not going to resell it, am going to USE IT/CARRY IT, going to take her with me shooting, and as others have suggested get her a few boxes of 40 cal ammo for her shooting pleasure.

joeinwv · « **Reply #27 on:** August 03, 2010, 03:01:17 PM »

She's probably going to think that Glock 40 is too snappy as well, so offer her retail for the Glock.

mrussel · « **Reply #28 on:** August 06, 2010, 06:56:24 PM »

Quote from: bulletstuffer on August 02, 2010, 10:16:04 AM

Land Owner

This is clearly a matter of conscience. If you would have offered her $100 it would have been a question of ethics when you felt $350 was a fair price. You asked her if she was still ok with the deal when the receipt was found and she was. She now has a shooting buddy and friend as you will try to make up for the slight difference in price she "might" have gotten if she went to a dealer. She will come out better in the end with you as a friend

Anyone with a good heart would always have the same feeling when buying something from a co worker, friend or family member.

Good luck,

Bulletstuffer

I agree. Usually when someone asks a question of ethics,what they really mean is "I did something I know is wrong,and now I want someone to tell me its ok" Clearly this is NOT one of those cases and I don't see that you did anything wrong. He tried,and I think succeeded in paying her a fair price. She thought it was fair and he thought it was fair. I would suggest what the other poster suggested,tell her,if she changes her mind you will sell it back for the same price,and then hang on to it for at least that year. Its not something she has to agree too,just tell her the offer is there if she changes her mind and your done. If she does,then its ok,if not then thats ok too.