A Doppelhackenof ~1520

[Incitatus]

Hi.

Collect arms and armor and early firearms.  During the earliest phases of firearms development, the point of the weapons was simply to make noise and throw something.  There isn't much point to be made to come up with a strong differentiation between "cannons" and "handguns".  There is some manuscript evidence to suggest that even as light a weapon as the Tannenberg Gun was "crew served" inasmuch as the person that fired it might not be the person who held it.

That said, if there is interest, I'll share some of the stuff from my collection.

This is a Dopplehacken or Double Hook.  it differ from other early weapons with a hook-like appendage mainly in size.  It is 45" long with a bore of 1.25".  There was powder in the bottom of the bore when I first got it and cleaned out the dirt.  Who knows whether it was original or not.




Note that some vestiges of color remain on the barrel.  Early guns were sometimes painted.  The Nuremberg colors were red and green .... was this from there?  Who knows.



The pear shaped cascabel indicates that it was aimed by hand.



I made a sorta generalized stand for it. 




It's from the first half of the 16th century, found in France though it was probably German in manufacture.

[RocklockI]

Very Nice ! I love these old handcannons ! I will enjoy any you post .

[dan610324]

nice piece , very interesting to know that there are others who are interested in early cannons

of course there is a difference between cannons and guns
today the legal definition is more than ,5" by international rules and laws to be called a cannon

[smokemjoe]

Is the center part curley maple?

[little seacoast]

Looks more like "curly" laminated plywood.  Very neat gun and stand, where on earth did you acquire such a find?

[Incitatus]

Is the center part curley maple?

No, the mount was made out of scrap plywood that I had kicking around.  The design came from a little model that I constructed years ago.



I always liked the sweep of the main support so I sorta duplicated it.  It's a reasonable approximation of what it might have been on.  

Glad you like it.

[Incitatus]

Looks more like "curly" laminated plywood.  Very neat gun and stand, where on earth did you acquire such a find?

I have found these type of things at auctions and thru other collectors.  This one was at an auction where it was misidentified as an 18th century ships cannon.  That sort of thing happens a lot.  I once bought a breastplate and back plate ca. 1500 that was mismatched with ca. 1570 shoulder defences and a 17th c. central European helmet.  The mess was called "German, 16th century" which is one of the safest attributions but in this case was howlingly wrong, at least on one key point.  Got it for a song.   The thing is that as the date of something approaches the magic 15th century, it's value skyrockets.  No one owns anything from 1500, it is always 1498.  Funny stuff.  Point is that in some narrow areas, it is fairly easy to know more than many experts.

I've got a dated dopplehacken that I'll post, it is sorta interesting.

[thelionspaw]

If cannonmn were still here, he could pin it down; exactly.  Maybe he was the seller

[Cannoneer]

Incitatus,

If Cannonmn (a grand collector of all things ordnance) was around right now he might ask you (of course, then again, he might not ); what is it that informs you that this piece should be identified as a 'doppelhaken'? Is there a mark on the bottom of the front of the barrel where a wall hook has been broken off?

[thelionspaw]

I'm glad you brought that up John. I wondered about it but I thought I'd let someone else step in.  

Amazing how early form and function still clinged on into the 19th & 20th centuries in Asia, with guns like this still coming out of Malaysia and the Philippines.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You removed a powder charge.  Did you save it?  What did it look like?  What did it weigh?  What was it wadded with?  Dirt?

Richard the Curious

P.S. More cannons please

[Double D]

Incitatus,

If Cannonmn (a grand collector of all things ordnance) was around right now he might ask you (of course, then again, he might not ); what is it that informs you that this piece should be identified as a 'doppelhaken'? Is there a mark on the bottom of the front of the barrel where a wall hook has been broken off?

Wrong.  He would have posted a link to an 80 photo slideshow and another link to very detailed discussion on some other forum addressing the subject.

[thelionspaw]

Incitatus:  Have you had a chance to look for and maybe photograph the spot where the second hook was?     I'm curious as to where and why 2 hooks were on it      Can we see the other "dated Doppelhacken" you said you have?

rc

[Cannoneer]

Rich,
I know (less than) next to nothing about "doppelhakens", but I think that the double in the word might refer to the size of the piece, not that it had two hooks. I believe the part on the middle bottom of the barrel is an under barrel lug/loop (not a hook) meant to mount it on a carriage. If this piece never had a hook in front of the mounting loop further towards the muzzle then I don't think that it's actually a doppelhaken.

Incitatus, would you let us know about any other info that you have on this barrel?  We'd really like to see some more pics of your collection. 

[thelionspaw]

google dopplehacken. I isn't a dopplehacken from what I can see but I only know what I read in the papers; like Will Rogers.

Of what I've seen:

One has trunions and a hook.
Another has an under slung pivot and no hook.
Some have a side lock.
yet another has neither pivot, trunions or hook but a serpentine match holder on a side lock; hence "double hook".

There are others and they are all listed as dopplehacken. Some even further removed from any double hook.

Just because someone puts something out there in print on a site, doesn't make it so.

Case in point, e.g. Jesus and Ave Maria. That, has been accepted for over a hundred years.

I found forum discussions and countless photographs but hesitated to cross the line; so you are on your own if you want to see what is available if you google. None of what I encountered as a dopplehacken, fits what we see as a 1520 dopplehacken.

It may be there but I didn't see it.

Perhaps the term is a non definable appellation.

Richard a.k.a. Will

[dan610324]

here in sweden we got an old phrase saying "kärt barn har många namn"
directly translated word by word it will be :
a dear child have many names

I think its the same with ancient cannons

in "doppelhacken" I believe the doppel means doubble
meaning doubble lengt compared to the shorter who was called "hakebus"
in swedish its hakebössa
hake means hook in english , bus or bössa means rifle with a modern english word
most of this is originaly german names that during the time have been changed in the swedish language from bus to bössa , hake still meaning the same in swedish (hook)
in the 16th century the swedish king Gustav Vasa said they should look for men who was used to use "rör" for the swedish army,   rör in swedish is pipe in english

no standard was set so I guess there where almost as many vaiations as it was users