45-90 Questions

[GrassLakeRon]

Hi all,

     I have been doing some more reading on the 45-90 mag concept and I have some questions I hope some of you can answer.  1)  The 45-90 and 458 win mag are about equal in case capacity, so if I need to hold down pressures to 50k psi, I should be able to use those 458 win mag loads that are less then 50k psi?  2) Thrust.  Since both are equal, should I expect more thrust from the 45-90 so much so that the handi will not handle it well?

Thanks in advance.

Ron

[quickdtoo]

The 45-90 has a slightly smaller case head, so theoretically it would have less breech thrust than the 458WM at equal pressure, but longevity of the action would be shortened with such loads if you used them a lot, the action would handle it, but for how long is good question.

Tim

[NFG]

THIS COULD BE DANGEROUS INFORMATION SO READ IT CAREFULLY AND IF YOU AREN'T AN EXPERT RELOADER AND UNDERSTAND PRESSURE AND BALLISTICS...DON'T DO IT.


Not trying to confuse the issue...BUT...There are several 45-90, 45-100 name designations and several different case lengths...it would be best to include the case LENGTH along with the case name...

The 45-90 SHARPS STRAIGHT is 2.75" long, 93cc H2O and the 45-90 WINCHESTER is 2.4" long, 91cc H2O...so either one has a similar case capacity as the 458WM, 2.5" long, 93cc H2O.

As long as this is understood the simple answer is...YOU LOAD FOR THE PRESSURE OF THE RECEIVER NOT THE CARTRIDGE CASE, and YES you could use 458 WM OR ANY load data for the same caliber/same case volume/same bullet weight...as long as you don't go over the pressure limits of the Handi, but if you're talking about a trap door rifle or older rifle...NO...you're asking for trouble.

As long as you stay within the pressure limits of the Handi, there is no different in the life expectancy of the Handi than shooting any reload or factory ammo...it you push the pressure limits then you are asking for accellerated wear and possible damage...there is no difference between the Handi or ANY other rifle, pistol or shotgun in this reguards.

I get roughly 10 reloads per case at the pressures and velocities I run in the 45-120 BC, 458 American or any other of my large caliber shooters and these reloads are NOT wimpy factory equal reloads.. but this is also a function of the way I reload , the dies I use and how I fit and adjust my sizer dies.

Look in the 2006 at the 458WM....you will find some very nice, relatively high velocity loads for bullet weight ranging from 300-500 gr all within the pressure limits of the Handi.

A whole lot of people look at a magnum cartridge and loose all sense of reality and forget there is a range of velocities and pressures...NOT just one velocity/pressure per bullet weight cartridge designation.

Reloading is about working within specific parameters for receiver pressure, bullet weight, velocity, accuracy, etc, and coming up with a safe working load.

I load the SAME bullet weights at DIFFERENT pressure/velocity ranges for my 45-70 thru 120, than I do for my 458 American, AND I use the 458 WM case trimmed to different lengths to accomodate seating the different bullet weights in their differently positioned cannelures and prerssure range...a 300 gr bullet might use the full length 458 WM case with a COL of 3.03" to fit the SMLE magazine and the case length for a 535 gr bullet might only be 2.2"...or 2.5" full length for a first shot, first loaded maxinum pressure for the SMLE load.

I use reloading data for the CASE CAPACITY and PRESSURE LIMITS of my Handi BC when I calculate different loads with "Load from a Disk" or QL and the online Powley load computer or when perusing the different loading manuals in my collection...

AND...I use ACTUAL(average for 5 cases not calculated), weighed case volumes for the different cases I use no matter what the caliber, wildcat or not.

Luck

[petemi]

Jeez, now ya got me intimidated again.  I ain't doin nuttin dats not in da books.

Pete

[quickdtoo]

Here ya go Pete!!

Tim

[petemi]

Thanks Tim, I printed and bookmarked it.

Didn't I read a while back on this forum that .45-90 or the 110 was the most efficient, and you weren't gaining much going to 120.  Yeah, I forgot....ya gain "Shock and Awe".  "Man, looka dat ting!!"

I just sitting here having some lunch, and being reminded of how good, picked now, vine ripened tomatoes are.  Not at all like our winter golf balls.  I'm gonna go wash off another and cut it up.  Sea Ya (Quote from gendoc),

Pete

[Dill45]

Maybe I'm missing something, but those velocities aren't that stellar.  Doesn't the 45-70 push a 300gr bullet over 2000 fps with ease?

[quickdtoo]

It can easily, but not with published loads, that's what Pete wants.

Tim

[petemi]

Maybe I'm missing something, but those velocities aren't that stellar.  Doesn't the 45-70 push a 300gr bullet over 2000 fps with ease?

I guess that's what I'm asking.  I just chronyed a 405 gr. .45-70 IMR4198 book load at 1929 fps.  How much can you gain going bigger?

Pete

[tykempster]

You can gain a lot.  Just depends if you're willing to use some Quickload data and go over SAAMI specs, while still be safe and sane.

I keep my 45-120 reloads to 40k psi (until I get a Ruger #1), and you can see how it does!

[S.E.Ak]

Ron the 457WWM is basicly a 45/90 so you have another shell to look at.

[quickdtoo]

The larger case allows you to do the same thing with a little less pressure, the 45-90 doesn't offer as much advantage over the 45-70 as the 45-120 tho.

Tim

[Swampman]

I just can't see how the .45-120 would be suitable for smokeless powder.

[GrassLakeRon]

I don't have my reloading manual in front of me, but I figured low (such as 75 gr of H322 or 77 gr of H4895) would do.  These are 38000 cup and gives good performance in the 350 gr. Horn.  These numbers are taken from the Hodgdon website for 458 win mag, starting loads.  According to their website it would give 350gr, 2400 fps or better. 

Ron

[Dill45]

It can easily, but not with published loads, that's what Pete wants.

Tim

Yeah I guessed that might have been what he was after.

It seems if you wanted to keep the pressures pretty low a 45-120 would be the way to go, but from the pics I've seen from tyke, recoil looks pretty eye opening, or cheek busting

[quickdtoo]

That's because he's shooting loads that equal 458 Lott velocities!! 

Tim

[NFG]

Not to stir up the pot again, as happened before, but the 300 gr load out of the Hodgdon site shot a bit faster in my 30" BC when it was a 45-70 and MUCH faster as a 45-120...well over the bullet velocity rating and well beyound the published numbers.

I don't waste case capacity in large calibers on light bullets.  

What I can't understand is why someone would buy a cannon then shoot popcorn in it so to speak, even though a lighter, larger caliber bullet is better in many cases than a smaller caliber heavy bullet, I'm a firm believer in heavy for the caliber bullets.  All argumentative in any case, doesn't matter anyway, we all do what we want irregardless.


The 45-120 has just slightly more case capacity than the 458 Lott(a 45-120 "a whole Lott" )...no one seems concerned about IT being suitable for smokeless powder cartridge.  For that matter the 458 Lott could be loaded with black powder and shot just as well as a 45-120 loaded with black...just very few people even think about using black in a "normaly" smokeless powder cartridge.

As Tims says...case capacity offers advantages...and disadvantages.  It is up to the shooter to work them out to HIS advantage.  Very few hunters actually need the horsepower of a 458WM or 458 Lott or even anything much over a 30-06...but that's what a throttle is for...use the least required to do the job or put the "pedal to the metal" when you're feeling hairy legged and macho.   Hahahahahaha

Luck

[Swampman]

Well it's for sure that the .45-120 is a lot more expensive to shoot than the .45-70 and .45-90 and the gain is small.

[GrassLakeRon]

I am still researching but the powley computer is only giving me one powder, but from I can tell, the velocities and pressures are in the ball park of what I was guessing.  One of you hit on the reasons for me choosing the 45-90 over the others, 1) cost 2) greater flexibility with the 45-70 / 45-90.  It would give me everything from off the shelf 45-70 for deer to 45-90 for LARGE BEAR.  Kind of like the range an 30-06 gives from gofers to moose.

Ron
   

[NFG]

As I said...there are advantages and disadvantages...in EVERY aspect of life...While economy is good it is chumpchange compared to the rest of the story...I think it is just ridiculous to spend all the money it takes to develop a usable rifle system then chump change the bullet cost, which so many do.

There are lots of ways to reduce costs...maybe the cost of the 45-120 brass is high compared to the 45-70 but when a guy NEEDS a 45-120, what the hell good is something smaller...you can always shoot the smaller case in the longer chamber.

When it comes to big bores, I don't build one with economy in mind necessarily, my skin is worth a lot more than a few bucks savings on brass cost or bullets.

And if you're thinking about economy there are always rocks and a sling.

I've said it before and here it comes again...their is NO GAME on the North American continent with the exception of Brown and Grizzly bears that the 30-06 won't take cleanly if the hunter is even halfway competent and a whole lot of those bears have been taken with the '06, so anything bigger is just a waste if you look at it from an ecomonical standpoint...BUT...I would rather have a 45-70 and MUCH rather have a 45-120 when push comes to shove...to H*** with economy and the rest of the BS and smoke.

The Powley computer isn't always the best predictive software to use...I use it to check my other software to see if they agree statistically.  Powley was also designed for use with IMR powders with a few powders added over the years...it DOES NOT always predict the best powder, only a powder within a certain case capacity and burn rate, THere are at least a half dozen or more other(and much better) powders that are NOT predicted, that can be used in this application.

Once you find what you're looking for THEN the real work begins...load development...no predictive software can tell you what is going to happen when you  get out of the armchair and start getting wet.


As far as flexibility goes, what is more flexible that a 45-120 chamber that can shoot a case length range from 2.1"(45-70) to 45-120(3.25") or from the power of a 45 auto to almost a 460 Weatherby....now THAT IS FLEXIBILITY AND ECONOMY.

You just have to open up the box of chocholates and take a bite.

Anyway, this question has been hashed over many times...whatever you decide and for whatever reason, it is YOUR baby to play with...be happy and enjoy whichever one you choose.

Luck

[Swampman]

The .45-90 can use the .45-70 dies and the brass is reasonable.  The .45-120 won't shoot .45-70 ammo well enough to try it.  The .45-120 looks cool but it doesn't bring anything to the table.

[LONGTOM]

From my studies the 120 does have an advantage when loaded with BP.
That is the reason I want one.
I want to be able to duplicate or better factory 300gr HP velocity only doing it with BP.
I don't see any other way other than going longer with the case.
Am I wrong in my thoughts?



LONGTOM

[Swampman]

I would agree that with BP the .45-120 would be awesome.

[Spanky]

There ain't no need for anything bigger than the 45-70. It's just a case of "mine's bigger than yours" with the others.



Spanky

[AtlLaw]

It's just a case of "mine's bigger than yours"

Mine is!       Wait!    Am I 'spose to feel bad about that?  

[LONGTOM]

It's just a case of "mine's bigger than yours"

Mine is!       Wait!    Am I 'spose to feel bad about that?  

We'll see when I get my .499HE done.
Can't decide on a full lenght BC or a 28" model.
Decision, decisiuons! 



LONGTOM

[Spanky]

That 499HE should be quite the thumper.
Hubel's work is amazing.



Spanky

[NFG]

I would definitely go with the long barreled version of the 499HE for a lot of reasons, but a 22" bbl will do nicely for all intents and purposes and is a LOT cheaper to do.  

Check out the price for a .500 cal barrel and the machine work for sticker shock...it's even worse for a .585 or .620 cal...  I started doing the research for a 26" 499HE, .585 and .620 stub barrel for one of my SB2 actions...I got stopped short when I checked out the barrel prices at PacNor, then found only a few barrel makers go that high in caliber...McGowen has 50 cal barrels at a very good price tho'.

I can do all the stub barrel work except the chamber (unless I want to buy the reamer at an additional $150 bucks) and was going to farm that out to Ed for the ~$125.00, but the barrel price stopped me cold...I can do a 24" .620(20ga) for a lot less.

I guess it all depends on what size table your bringing things to....I've seen some mighty small things they call tables.  It all depends on what you think is "good enough" when it comes to sizes, doesn't it. ...and MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I beg to differ with you about the 45-70 in a 45-120...These Handi's are not benchresters and I have 45-70 loads that shoot in my 45-120 just as well as they did BEFORE it was a 45-120.  You do have to clean the chamber well before going to the longer case...no different than shooting as 38 in a 357 mag or Maximum or a 44 Spec in a 44 Mag or 444 M, 45 LC in a 454 Casull or 410 chamber, or ANY other cartridge combination doing the same thing.  It all depends on to load, what your accuracy limits are, etc...if you'r not willing to do the work then.....

Longtom...do some more research and you should find a suitable load.  The 45-120 was developed toward the end of the BP era for the same reason that the additiona length of the 90 and up gave higher velocities due to the BP powder parameters.  It was actually obsolete before it was developed because smokeless powders were coming online along with the cartridges and weapons...and velocity was king so the bullet diameter and weights started going down and the velocity going up..killing energy increases at the square of the velocity while the energy only increases proportionally to the bullet weight...Check out some ballistics tables if you don't understand this concept...just simple Kinetic energy physics.

You can stay in denial all you want when it comes to personal beliefs, but that doesn't mean that the real world follows suit.  By that criteria we wouldn't have anything bigger than a rock to get our game with, do you think?   Or the 499HE or 620 HE or the muscle cars of the earlier era, or sliced bread for that matter.

Anyway...it ain't no thang, dance with who you brung.

Luck

[LONGTOM]

I talked to ED last night by email about my thoughts and he suggested I go with the full length BC.
I need to see if Wayne York can re-bore to .500.
ED also suggested a 1 in 20" twist for bullets in the 350gr range.
He said it should make around 2700 fps with 350s.
I guess that means a Limsaver for sure. 
I even asked about the .499 with BP and he thought it would work fine also.
I know the brass is about $4.00 each and ED charges a buck to rework it.
Haven't asked what he charges to re-chamber.
Need to check about dies also.
A lot to check out and a lot of $$$ but heck, you only go around once!
I just want a 50 cal and it is still a lot cheaper that a Sharps with a lot less wait.
True the 22" 500 S&W would be a lot cheaper and a lot more handy but then there is that (what did Richard call it) oh yea, that WOW factor! 
We'll see.
Maybe an early Christmas present to me! 



LONGTOM

[NFG]

Yeah...50 cal seems to get the juices flowing and the sweat popping out.

There are several smiths that will rebore so that isn't a problem...rebores run $250-350 plus some charge ~$150 plus for the chamber job...but it depends on the smith.  Wayne would be my first pick as he is very familiar with the NEF...Talk to him then decide. 

Dies from CH4D take a long time, run about $182 and change, and are 1" so you also need a press that will take 1" dies or larger and an adapter, so I would get those pieces and parts ordered FIRST...before having the barrel done.  Hopefully all the bits will get finished about the same time.  My 510 Makatak dies took 7 months from Ch4D and ended up costing $232.00.  At one time Ed had dies for sale at $125...you might just check that also.

For a rebore I would pick .510"...50 cal bullets are hard enough to find and .500 even harder...Beartooth has a 350gr .501 for the Desert Eagle, but for this size case shooting 350 gr bullets is a total waste of capacity, if that is all you want to shoot then stick with the 45-70 and save yourself some money...you can get 2600fs with the 350 gr .45 cal bullet relatively easy.

You can still use the same case as the 499HE if you want, just have the dies made to match the bullet...that way you can use military bullets also and have a bigger selection of slugs.  That 499HE, 450-475 NE#2 case is HUGE, something like 175gr H2O so it eats powder by the handfull and all that powder contributes to the recoil...your talking 150 gr of powder to get that 2700fs velocity and recoil for a 15lb rifle around 60 ft lbs.

There are several ways to approach this "problem", including using a bolt action.

It's your baby, just work the problem, decide if it is worth it, then GIT'R'DONE and enjoy whatever you end up with.  Keep us informed of what you do and the costs...I'm sure there are some others that would appreciate the input.

Luck