Author Topic: why don't you own a 30-06?  (Read 28006 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline FPH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #270 on: February 03, 2013, 07:45:08 PM »
I will save forum space by not quoting the entire post above... But why when people compare rifles, they use different sized bullets... How about you go and find data for the 280 and 06 using the same bullet and weight. There will be an advantage to the smaller diameter bullet, but it won't be much. 
 
Not only that, but the data is scewed in that in the long range data the 280 is zeroed at 250 and the 06 at 200.... I'd call that data apples to bushel baskets.
 
280 is a great rifle round but it's not that much better than an 06.

  WHY the same weight??  The same SD is what should be compared, then the same bullet construction!
 
  DM

Why the same weight? Really?  That should be obvious. Then you can have a fair comparison of engergy, trajectory and velocity. Both calibers are in the same range, so why compare different bullets...
 
Ok how about at least the same zero range....
 
Now why SD???

  If you understood what SD ment and does, you wouldn't be asking that question.
 
  DM
SD has an effect on penetration, not trajectory.....you mean BC? The chart bis comparing trajectories and recoil, not bullet selection for hunting.

Offline Buckskin

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2504
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #271 on: February 04, 2013, 02:52:05 AM »
I will save forum space by not quoting the entire post above... But why when people compare rifles, they use different sized bullets... How about you go and find data for the 280 and 06 using the same bullet and weight. There will be an advantage to the smaller diameter bullet, but it won't be much. 
 
Not only that, but the data is scewed in that in the long range data the 280 is zeroed at 250 and the 06 at 200.... I'd call that data apples to bushel baskets.
 
280 is a great rifle round but it's not that much better than an 06.

  WHY the same weight??  The same SD is what should be compared, then the same bullet construction!
 
  DM

Why the same weight? Really?  That should be obvious. Then you can have a fair comparison of engergy, trajectory and velocity. Both calibers are in the same range, so why compare different bullets...
 
Ok how about at least the same zero range....
 
Now why SD???

  If you understood what SD ment and does, you wouldn't be asking that question.
 
  DM
SD has an effect on penetration, not trajectory.....you mean BC? The chart bis comparing trajectories and recoil, not bullet selection for hunting.

Yes, I know what sectional density means and I will ask again. Why would SD be your defining measuring stick?
Buckskin

"I have tried to live my life so that my family would love me and my friends respect me. The others can do whatever the hell they please.   --John Wayne

Offline Drilling Man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3646
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #272 on: February 04, 2013, 04:33:37 AM »
I will save forum space by not quoting the entire post above... But why when people compare rifles, they use different sized bullets... How about you go and find data for the 280 and 06 using the same bullet and weight. There will be an advantage to the smaller diameter bullet, but it won't be much. 
 
Not only that, but the data is scewed in that in the long range data the 280 is zeroed at 250 and the 06 at 200.... I'd call that data apples to bushel baskets.
 
280 is a great rifle round but it's not that much better than an 06.

  WHY the same weight??  The same SD is what should be compared, then the same bullet construction!
 
  DM

Why the same weight? Really?  That should be obvious. Then you can have a fair comparison of engergy, trajectory and velocity. Both calibers are in the same range, so why compare different bullets...
 
Ok how about at least the same zero range....
 
Now why SD???

  If you understood what SD ment and does, you wouldn't be asking that question.
 
  DM
SD has an effect on penetration, not trajectory.....you mean BC? The chart bis comparing trajectories and recoil, not bullet selection for hunting.

  I misunderstood that we were ONLY worried about drop here...  When i compare bullets i'm interested in bullet performance as in penetration too.  I don't give a ratsazz about an inch or two this way or that, (drop) but i'm more concerned with what will happen when that bullets hits the animal.  SO, to me (within reason) SD is more important that BC when compareing bullets of different calibers.
 
  I have several 30-06's and pretty much have always had one around, BUT when i built my light weight mountain rifle (back before they were common) I build it chambered for 280 Rem..  For deer, i prefer it over the 30-06 because it STILL has more power/penetration than i need to kill any deer or blk. bear...
 
  DM

Offline FPH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #273 on: February 04, 2013, 05:11:27 AM »
I understand your concern in regards to SD.  However, as I observed, the chart being compared only includes bullet weight, drop and recoil with no respect to SD.

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #274 on: February 06, 2013, 06:07:32 AM »
I will save forum space by not quoting the entire post above... But why when people compare rifles, they use different sized bullets... How about you go and find data for the 280 and 06 using the same bullet and weight. There will be an advantage to the smaller diameter bullet, but it won't be much. 
 
Not only that, but the data is scewed in that in the long range data the 280 is zeroed at 250 and the 06 at 200.... I'd call that data apples to bushel baskets.
 
280 is a great rifle round but it's not that much better than an 06.

  WHY the same weight??  The same SD is what should be compared, then the same bullet construction!
 
  DM

Why the same weight? Really?  That should be obvious. Then you can have a fair comparison of engergy, trajectory and velocity. Both calibers are in the same range, so why compare different bullets...
 
Ok how about at least the same zero range....
 
Now why SD???

  If you understood what SD ment and does, you wouldn't be asking that question.
 
  DM
SD has an effect on penetration, not trajectory.....you mean BC? The chart bis comparing trajectories and recoil, not bullet selection for hunting.

  I misunderstood that we were ONLY worried about drop here...  When i compare bullets i'm interested in bullet performance as in penetration too.  I don't give a ratsazz about an inch or two this way or that, (drop) but i'm more concerned with what will happen when that bullets hits the animal.  SO, to me (within reason) SD is more important that BC when compareing bullets of different calibers.
 
  I have several 30-06's and pretty much have always had one around, BUT when i built my light weight mountain rifle (back before they were common) I build it chambered for 280 Rem..  For deer, i prefer it over the 30-06 because it STILL has more power/penetration than i need to kill any deer or blk. bear...
 
  DM


BC is a comparative statement anyway.  There is no one caliber that is inherintly better than another in this respect.  The same goes for SD.  Different weights and designs of bullets will change these values.  They are a comparison between the weight of the bullet and the dimensions of the bullet.


You can design any bullet to have just as good of a BC as another.   


I actually agree that SD is more important than BC.  With scope design and that whole math thing, any good shooter should know how to properly compensate for the drop of his bullet at range.  Though a better BC will improve energy at range... it is usually not enough to make that big of a difference.   But the higher the SD of a bullet, the better it will carry energy through an animal at a similar BC range as compared to other bullets. 
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline BBF

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10042
  • Gender: Male
  • I feel much better now knowing it will get worse.
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #275 on: February 06, 2013, 07:22:05 AM »
Sectional Denisty depends on the lenght of the bullet as part of the equation(I think) The moment the bullet strikes the target the shape will change unless it is a FMJ and so does the SD. The amount of change after impact has everything to do with construction and impact velocity.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline FPH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #276 on: February 06, 2013, 07:27:54 AM »
Sectional Denisty depends on the lenght of the bullet as part of the equation(I think) The moment the bullet strikes the target the shape will change unless it is a FMJ and so does the SD. The amount of change after impact has everything to do with construction and impact velocity.

No.....wt.(lbs.) /diameter(in.) squared.

Offline Buckskin

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2504
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #277 on: February 06, 2013, 07:29:00 AM »
We're getting way off track here... All I suggested is that if you are going to compare two rifle calibers as close as the 06 and 280 are, why not use the same bullet and same weight as to give a better comparison. As well, zero them at the same range for heaven sakes...  There are plenty of quality bullets out there that have a 7mm and a 30 caliber bullet from 150 to 180 grains to pick from.
Buckskin

"I have tried to live my life so that my family would love me and my friends respect me. The others can do whatever the hell they please.   --John Wayne

Offline FPH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #278 on: February 06, 2013, 07:33:48 AM »
We're getting way off track here... All I suggested is that if you are going to compare two rifle calibers as close as the 06 and 280 are, why not use the same bullet and same weight as to give a better comparison. As well, zero them at the same range for heaven sakes...  There are plenty of quality bullets out there that have a 7mm and a 30 caliber bullet from 150 to 180 grains to pick from.

That may compare the trajectory of the bullets, but not the rifles "killing" ability.  I do agree that with the tables presented.....you should be comparing equal bullet wts. 

Offline Buckskin

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2504
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #279 on: February 06, 2013, 07:49:43 AM »
We're getting way off track here... All I suggested is that if you are going to compare two rifle calibers as close as the 06 and 280 are, why not use the same bullet and same weight as to give a better comparison. As well, zero them at the same range for heaven sakes...  There are plenty of quality bullets out there that have a 7mm and a 30 caliber bullet from 150 to 180 grains to pick from.

That may compare the trajectory of the bullets, but not the rifles "killing" ability.  I do agree that with the tables presented.....you should be comparing equal bullet wts.

I would say you would get a pretty good idea based on energy comparisons.
Buckskin

"I have tried to live my life so that my family would love me and my friends respect me. The others can do whatever the hell they please.   --John Wayne

Offline rosewood

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 119
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #280 on: February 06, 2013, 07:58:22 AM »

You can design any bullet to have just as good of a BC as another.   


For standard comparable calibers, this is probably a true statement, however, you can not get the same BC out of say a larger bullet such as a .45 (.45-70) as you can with say a 7mm bullet.  It isn't physically possible without making the .45 ridiculously long and heavy and totally changing the case to be able to handle it.

BC and SD are somewhat related, a higher SD bullet is going to have a higher BC as it cuts through the wind better (more momentum with less wind resistance).

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #281 on: February 06, 2013, 08:10:03 AM »
We're getting way off track here... All I suggested is that if you are going to compare two rifle calibers as close as the 06 and 280 are, why not use the same bullet and same weight as to give a better comparison. As well, zero them at the same range for heaven sakes...  There are plenty of quality bullets out there that have a 7mm and a 30 caliber bullet from 150 to 180 grains to pick from.

That may compare the trajectory of the bullets, but not the rifles "killing" ability.  I do agree that with the tables presented.....you should be comparing equal bullet wts.




I think equal BC/SC of a bullet would be a better comparison, as you get a bullet better suited for the caliber in question.


Whenever I have researched a new rifle, the weight of the bullet was only used to compute the energy and trajectory at range for different calibers/cartridges.  Using different weights of bullets to compute different energies and trajectories to compare is very helpful, and having the BC of those bullets helps to give you the best energy at range.


Along with those, equations that take in bullet weight and bullet diameter will give an idea of overall effectiveness such as Taylor KO value.


Energy only goes so far... high energy super fast light bullets hate penetration because they don't maintain momentum and expand energy into an animal too fast.  This is where a bullet with higher SD and equal BC (higher weight and diameter) at the same energy will do better for penetration on game.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Buckskin

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2504
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #282 on: February 06, 2013, 08:55:59 AM »
Uhhhggg.... I give up...
Buckskin

"I have tried to live my life so that my family would love me and my friends respect me. The others can do whatever the hell they please.   --John Wayne

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #283 on: February 06, 2013, 12:41:09 PM »
Hey buck, all we are saying is that if you make a bullet the same exact weight with a smaller diameter, it is going to have a higher ballistic coefficient and better ballistics, making it an unfair advantage. 


Taking the larger caliber up to a larger bullet increases its BC making the long term energy and trajectory a more fair comparison.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #284 on: February 06, 2013, 12:45:54 PM »
That's why smart hunters use the 180s in the .30-06.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #285 on: February 06, 2013, 12:48:42 PM »
Swamp isn't there half a page of you talking about how the 220 was the bullet for the -06???
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #286 on: February 06, 2013, 12:53:19 PM »
I don't know......why?
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #287 on: February 06, 2013, 12:55:23 PM »
Why would it be smart to use a bullet 40 grains less than what it is designed for, according to you???  ;)
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #288 on: February 06, 2013, 12:58:43 PM »
Not according to me but according to history.  Because it's heavy enough to be highly accurate and designed better for long range work than the 220.  The 180s are perfect for everything.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #289 on: February 06, 2013, 01:04:50 PM »
Rhinos?!??!?!?!?


hahahahaha


kidding.  I actually agree that 180grains is a great weight for the -06.  Personally I shoot 165's, but that is because I have a 338 should I want that little bit larger. 
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #290 on: February 06, 2013, 01:10:29 PM »
When I switched from 165s to 180s my groups shrank to less than 1/2" at 100 yards.  180 grain Core-Lokts for deer and 180 grain Nosler Partitions for bigger stuff.  Both my .30-06s love heavier bullets.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #291 on: February 06, 2013, 04:49:48 PM »
Wow , 180's for Swamp deer? ... Heck that makes our large NE whitetails look like wimps being taken from 20 - 150 yards with just those itty bitty 150 core lokt's.  Just havein Fun :)
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23883
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #292 on: February 06, 2013, 06:01:49 PM »
Why don't you own a 3006?

I've owned two and sold'em. I like my 3030 better.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23883
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #293 on: February 06, 2013, 06:05:46 PM »
Swamp isn't there half a page of you talking about how the 220 was the bullet for the -06???

LMA0!  Caught switchin horses AGAIN! :-[
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline FPH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #294 on: February 06, 2013, 07:56:37 PM »
Why don't you own a 3006?

I've owned two and sold'em. I like my 3030 better.

I can see that in East TX, but not out  in West TX and Southern NM.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #295 on: February 06, 2013, 11:14:00 PM »
Swamp isn't there half a page of you talking about how the 220 was the bullet for the -06???

LMA0!  Caught switchin horses AGAIN! :-[

No not again or now......dolt
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23883
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #296 on: February 07, 2013, 01:25:17 AM »
LOL!
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #297 on: February 07, 2013, 11:29:01 AM »
Troll ::)   You never have anything to add.....ever
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Drilling Man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3646
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #298 on: February 07, 2013, 01:26:18 PM »
Troll ::)   You never have anything to add.....ever

  Looking in the mirror, aren't you??  You always have something to add, it just that pretty much ALWAYS it isn't anything useful!!
 
  DM

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: why don't you own a 30-06?
« Reply #299 on: February 07, 2013, 02:26:51 PM »
It useful to those with some comprehension. 
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~