Author Topic: 35 Whelen  (Read 1374 times)

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Offline wile326

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35 Whelen
« on: August 08, 2010, 10:30:30 AM »
I just bought another Handi rifle and one of the barrels it came with is a 35 Whelen. Never shot this caliber before. I do reload so ammo would not be a problem once I was set up for it. I was wondering what peoples opinions of it are? Would like to get some more info on it before I spend anything on it.

thanks

James

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 10:47:21 AM »
Congrats on the new Handi combo!! I have 2 H&R 35 Whelens, both shoot excellent, one is an RMEF 26" Ultra, the other is a 2006 Handi, I've not shot any factory ammo in either, but the previous owner of the Handi used Rem 200gr ammo with no problems, I had it rechambered to Improved right after I got it, I've shot 200gr TSX, 200gr Rem Core-lokts  and 250gr Hornady RN, all shot 1¼" or better at 100yds. Some members have had misfires with Whelens, a couple had their rifle bought back by H&R, others have had them repaired by H&R with no problems. I'm guessing by the vast majority of Whelens sold in the last couple years and the few complaints that most owners are very happy with them, H&R currently offers it in 3 models, the Handi-grip synthetic thumbhole, synthetic monte carlo and the standard wood stocked version.

Reloder 15 is a great powder for the Whelen, it works very well for me, you may need to take some care when sizing brass for it, and I've had some factory Rem brass that had excess headpace which I feel is the biggest causes for misfires, but it's an easy problem to deal with by necking up to .375" , then full length resizing just enough to get the false shoulder in the proper place before reloading it.

Tim

http://35cal.com/35whelen.htm

http://35cal.com/index.html
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Offline gendoc

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2010, 11:15:33 AM »
at the beginning of spring here, around april...
i bought a problem whelen handi from a local hunter. he said that it did not like to shoot every time.
he never sent it back for repair. so that just made it more tempting for me !!! ;D
i got it and followed proper brass sizing according to its chamber and proper headspace and loading. it has never gave me a bit of problems with over 250-300 fires. i use it in my airboat when running the swamps. it has taken some hawgs and other critters.
its a great gun for the song i sung to get it. thats why its a boat gun, got it cheap !!!
and another reason is i have a #1 in that chambering that will never see a boat, much less a
drop of water unless it gets rained on while hunting. although it of course is SS  
i hope you have good luck with yours  ;)
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline Swampman

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2010, 11:37:32 AM »
I'd buy a box of Remington ammo and try it.  If it misfired I'd sell it.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline poncaguy

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 12:03:39 PM »
I've had my 35 Whelen for 5 or 6 (?) years, more or less (I'm 69 and don't remember much anymore ..ha)Mine has always fired every round and been very accurate, inch groups. Took a nice  Kansas doe last winter with it, dropped like  I had shot it with a 458 Magnum. I love the round, would like to have more rifles in it.

Offline kmbrown

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 04:48:02 PM »
Congrats on the new Handi combo!! I have 2 H&R 35 Whelens, both shoot excellent, one is an RMEF 26" Ultra, the other is a 2006 Handi, I've not shot any factory ammo in either, but the previous owner of the Handi used Rem 200gr ammo with no problems, I had it rechambered to Improved right after I got it, I've shot 200gr TSX, 200gr Rem Core-lokts  and 250gr Hornady RN, all shot 1¼" or better at 100yds. Some members have had misfires with Whelens, a couple had their rifle bought back by H&R, others have had them repaired by H&R with no problems. I'm guessing by the vast majority of Whelens sold in the last couple years and the few complaints that most owners are very happy with them, H&R currently offers it in 3 models, the Handi-grip synthetic thumbhole, synthetic monte carlo and the standard wood stocked version.

Reloder 15 is a great powder for the Whelen, it works very well for me, you may need to take some care when sizing brass for it, and I've had some factory Rem brass that had excess headpace which I feel is the biggest causes for misfires, but it's an easy problem to deal with by necking up to .375" , then full length resizing just enough to get the false shoulder in the proper place before reloading it.

Tim

http://35cal.com/35whelen.htm

http://35cal.com/index.html
I'm curious about how much you gain by reaming the Whelen to an improved version. Also, since you can't set the barrel back how do you set headspace when fireforming cases?

Offline wreckhog

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 05:13:33 PM »
Buy enough Handis and you will have some sort of problem. It may be easily resolved, but QC does not seem to exist. Very hit or miss. My opinion of the Whelen is based on what I read here of other people's guns. I have no more use for a hunting gun that misfires 1 out of 10 times than I do of a hunting scope that is unusable 10 percent of the time. The Whelen seems to have usurped the .243 as the problem caliber in Handis. Quite a feat considering that relatively few Whelens have been sold.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 05:27:59 PM »
I'm curious about how much you gain by reaming the Whelen to an improved version. Also, since you can't set the barrel back how do you set headspace when fireforming cases?

I'm pushing the 250gr Hornady to 2650fps, groups are 2-2½" tho, the best accuracy is at 2550fps at 1¼", which is about 50fps faster than a standard 24" Whelen according to Hodgdon data. It's real easy to load for it, same as loading for a chamber with too much headspace, just form a false shoulder to headspace on, and fire form the brass, see handloading for an improved chamber in the FAQs.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline kmbrown

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2010, 06:07:12 PM »
Thanks Tim, That's what I figured.

Offline wile326

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2010, 12:09:40 PM »
thanks for all the good advise. I will hang onto it for now and shoot it.

Offline yooper77

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2010, 12:29:23 PM »
thanks for all the good advise. I will hang onto it for now and shoot it.

I am sure you will not have any problems. People have trouble with failure to fire, but any competent reloader can solve this easy issue.

I hand load for a T/C Encore in 35 Whelen and I have had zero problems. I use once fired 30-06 Springfield brass for the 35 Whelen and 338-06 A-Square, its easy no failure to fire problems ever.

Have fun,
yooper77

Offline Swampman

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 01:10:02 PM »
I would disagree that a competent reloader can get this caliber to work.  They have a terrible rep.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 01:32:26 PM »
I have a .35 Whelen in the 26" length, If you looked up "Great Guns" in the dictionary you should see a picture of it there. I believe after the 45-70 this is the "big" caliber everyone should have in a Handi, one of the fabulous .35's. I's a great complement to my .35 Remington Handi and my 30-06 Handi....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline mauser98us

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 02:23:16 PM »
I would disagree that a competent reloader can get this caliber to work.  They have a terrible rep.
A competent hand loader can do two things easily. One is size the neck larger to leave a false shoulder and the other is to seat the bullet into the lands,sizing til the action just closes and locks. No magic or mystery here. Geterdone. Long live the Whelan! ;D

Offline Swampman

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2010, 02:24:17 PM »
That would be great but it hasn't been working in the Handi.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline yooper77

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2010, 02:38:10 PM »
 
A competent hand loader can do two things easily. One is size the neck larger to leave a false shoulder and the other is to seat the bullet into the lands,sizing til the action just closes and locks. No magic or mystery here. Geterdone. Long live the Whelan! ;D

Absolutely mauser98us,

I agree with you. I have had nothing, but success with hand loading the 35 Whelen.  Bolt, semi-auto, pump or single actions all are easily hand loaded with the 35 Whelen.

Yes long live the Whelen, it will live forever for those who know how you load it.

yooper77

Offline NFG

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2010, 02:46:47 PM »
If you have a 35 Whelen barrel that won't fire for you, let me know...I will buy it cheap...I know at least a dozen ways to "fix'" it and the other Handi problems...of course all that information has been posted at least a million times or more here and everyone that did ALL the fixes and continues to reload has solved the problem....

But don't let that stop you from selling ME that worthless POS and letting me have all the problems...I can handle it...my shoulders are big AND broad.  ;D 8) :D

Besides...I need a cheap 35 cal Handi barrel...just because.

Luck

Offline billy_56081

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2010, 03:35:30 PM »
I'd do the same as NFG I'd love to buy someones non shooters cheep. Listening to Swampy on gun issues is about like listening to Obongo on the economy. If you have one with the generous chamber it can easily be handled by handloading.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2010, 04:50:01 PM »
Ooh - Ooh - Ooh, what a great thought!! If there is a third disgruntled .35 Whelen barrel owner out there I will happily get in line behind NFG and billy_56081 to buy his POS cheaply as well. Now that I'm in line, even if I'm third in line, the rest of you are welcomed to line up as well for the cheap, no good, POS, .35 Whelen barrels!!!....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline jim36

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2010, 06:02:46 AM »
Well Guys   I said I wasn't going to get in on this post, but I just couldn't let it go. As many of you know my story on the 35 W,so I won't go into detail.
But, after FOUR (yes 4) trips back to remington, it still had its failure to fire. After trying all the tips by some replies here, it still had FTF.
     When a man goes to bed and thinks about WHY? Gets out of bed and goes to the reloading bench to try something eles and the next day at the range, she shoots maybe six or seven times and I think I have got it fixed and the next one fails, all of the problem is back to square one. I tried every way, fire formed, neck size, full size, you name it. NOTHING WORKED. So, I sent this back for a refund on the bbl.
     When a man purchases a firearm it is supposed to fire when you pull the trigger. Especially with factory ammo.
     There are many post about different firearm manuf. that have had trouble with the 35W. My Thompson 35W had a few FTF, but after replacing the hammer spring with a heavy one, it has no problem. I built a 35W on a Savage 110 and it will shoot anything, anytime, everytime. So why the Handi?
     I would never have the confidence to hunt with my Handi in 35 w.
Tweaking and tinkering has always been fun when playing with the Handi rifles. But when Fun turns into Frustration, the fun part goes away.
     You know H&R took the 35 W off the market a while back. Evidently something fell thru the cracks at Quality control or R&D.
     If it won't shoot when you pull the trigger, leave it alone get rid of it. By the way , if a bear chases you up a tree, be certain to pull the trigger all the way to the rear or it might not fire.  ::) ::)  Jim   <")))><

Offline NFG

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2010, 08:33:42 AM »
Let's address the return to MFG AND factory ammo issue.  You NEVER KNOW just what the "smith" did or didn't do when they "did" your returns...mostly they do the least possible...nor do you know what brand of ammo, IF they actually fire the rifle, that they used.

Factory ammo is loaded to a specific set of parameters which may or may not match the chamber parameters of YOUR shooter...Most of the FTF problems with the 35 Whelen are with the length of the chamber...the Handi chambers seem to be cut long, on the high end of SAMMI specs which means that if the cartridge maker sets there parameters on the short side the resulting difference can be from 0.010" to well over 0.025".  NO short factory ammo will fire off in a overly long chamber except occasionally, under those conditions, and that is due to the tolerance limits set along with all the other parameters of the factory ammo.

This is NOT a fault of Handi except that they might have picked the LONG end of the tolerance spectrum, NOR the fault of the ammo maker except they ight have picked the SHORT end of the spectrum and the resulting differences is causing all the fuss.  Factory ammo is supposed to fire in ANY SAAMI chamber and ALL chambers are supposed to be within SAAMI specs...BUT...we all know that ain' the real story.

There is also the issue of a cheap, quickly made, rifle that uses a work force trained in specific actions where personal initiative "might" be frowned on...not saying it is, but anyone who has worked on a production line will know what I'm talking about.

The fixes are simple and "usually" work very well...I can see your point, tho'...if you can't or don't want to deal with the issue, or fiddle with it a bit and couldn't get it to work right, then getting rid of the shooter is your best choice.

ANYONE and EVERYONE should invest in a set of Hornady OAL and HEADSPACE guages.  Having the set and taking a few minutes to measure the shoulder length on several brands of 35 Whelen ammo AND on a fired case would have settled the issue quickly.

FTF's are an issue with break action rifles including T/C Contender and Encores and the solutions have been know since all three shooters have been around.

Who knows FOR SURE WHY the 35 Whelen was taken off the marker...QC could have been the reason, lack of sales coupled with the FTF problem could have been the reason...problems with the company, the work force, lack of interest and the pending sale all could be contributing factors.

The chance of a long chamber is inherent in the Handi AND T/C and the only way to factory fix it is to swap in a new barrel...I'm guessing that is the last thing on the list of corrections at the Handi repair group.

The Handi has such a simple ignition mechanism that there shouldn't be any problems that can't be fixed quickly, but because of the way the hammer gets it's power and the fact that it only takes a little bit of interference or reduction of the spring power to cause a FTF AND the fact that people want a nice light trigger pull which REALLY screws up the hammer spring pressue, it's a wonder there aren't MORE FTF's.

I really wish someone with a factory 35 Whelen that WORKS and one that has FTF's, would measure the shoulders on the brand of factory ammo and a fired case and post the information...maybe go to a Sporting goods store and measure several brands and post that information.  This might go a long way to understanding what the H*** is going on and why so those without a lot of reloading expertice would start to understand.  I've already checked all the sporting goods stores in my area and NO ONE carries 35 Whelen or I would do the measuring myself.

Anyone that is having problems could just drop a loaded round into the chamber, (with the barrel removed from the receiver for safety) pusth the round into the chamber as far as it will go and use a straight edge across the chamber and see if there is any light under the straight edge or use a feeler gauge to measure the gap.  That would tell you real quick if the chamber is too long and how much.

I have 4 Savage receivers, 2 LA and 2 SA, an I don't know HOW many barrels I've cut...I've been playing with the savage since the mid 60", a heck of a long time before they got to be "popular".  There isn't any comparison between the Handi and the Savage because you can set the Savage headspace to ANY spec you want and if your smart you will set it to the ammo you are using, the dies you are using and if the bolt won't close it is a simple matter to back the barrel out a tad so it WILL fit.  You can't do that with the Handi.

I have onel stub barreled SB2 receiver with one 6mmBR barrel made from the middle section of a previous 6mm-284 Douglas barrel and a Ruger SS 223 barrel that will end up a 222 Rem Mag, the reamer should be here today, and I will be doing a 6.5 BR or 260 Rem stub barrel within the next couple months AND I might even do a 35 Whelen just to put this whole fiasco in perspective. 

If I could get my hands on a 35 Whelen barrel that is causing problems, a fired case and  a factory case with the bullet pulled I would be very willing to see what I could do, or at least find out if the problem is in the barrel...I won't touch someone elses receiver.  Wonder if that offer just put me in the pickle jar? :o
 
The only FTF's I've had with Handi's were cause by slightly long chambers and slow hammer fall caused by me not holding the trigger back all the way, interference with a scope or something causing the hammer to slow down internally...all simple fixes.  Oh, Yeah, one case with a deeper than normal primer pocket, but that was only ONE cartridge case.

The solution to this dilemma lies in the hands of the users and what their perspective is and how much fiddling they are willing to do to solve it...in a step by step, rational, progressive way.

Luck

Offline jim36

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2010, 09:54:35 AM »
NFG   Really a good post. It is definitely  well stated and explained. I totally agree with you.
     The thing that bothered me most, and you stated it also, there was never another barrel replacement made. (out of 4 trips to Rem) I put a couple of witness marks on the bbl so I know this for certain. They always did some trigger work and "TIMED" the action. Never determined what that means. I honestly did my best to make it fire 100%, but it never worked. I felt I was very patient with Rem., especially waiting over 10 months to get a barrel.
     Believe me, I am not going to go off the deep end over this one. I have a cabinet full of Handies and there is absolutely no problen with any of the others.
     I just feel if they had replaced the barrel and started over, I would have had a nice shooter. When she did shoot, she shoot a nice 1 to 11/4" MOA.
                                                          Jim   <")))><


Offline kmbrown

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2010, 12:04:46 PM »
NFG   Really a good post. It is definitely  well stated and explained. I totally agree with you.
     The thing that bothered me most, and you stated it also, there was never another barrel replacement made. (out of 4 trips to Rem) I put a couple of witness marks on the bbl so I know this for certain. They always did some trigger work and "TIMED" the action. Never determined what that means. I honestly did my best to make it fire 100%, but it never worked. I felt I was very patient with Rem., especially waiting over 10 months to get a barrel.
     Believe me, I am not going to go off the deep end over this one. I have a cabinet full of Handies and there is absolutely no problen with any of the others.
     I just feel if they had replaced the barrel and started over, I would have had a nice shooter. When she did shoot, she shoot a nice 1 to 11/4" MOA.
                                                          Jim   <")))><


i've got a friend that is having the same luck that you've had.  His gun misfires about half the time with factory ammo and about a quarter of the time with once fired handloads.  We replace the hammer spring, checked the firing pin length, removed the hammer spur and used necked up .280 Rem brass that was sized to chamber with some resistance. The brass alone should have cured the misfires but it didn't.  We bought our guns at the same time and place.  Mine hasn't missed a beat.  I did notice that the firing pin strikes are very offset with his gun.  Every handi I've seen has this issue but this one is the worst I've seen.  Wondering if this is contributing to the problem?  NFG, if I can get my hands on the guages, I'll measure the cases since I have access to a gun that has misfires and one that doesn't.  I did notice that a fired  necked up. 280 case that chambers easily in the FTF rifle will not chamber at all in mine.  In fact the entire rim sticks out of my chamber.  This was done with the barrel off and the extractor pushed all the way in.

Offline NFG

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Re: 35 Whelen
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2010, 01:33:43 PM »
"TIMED", eh...that would have me scratching my head also...what is there to "time" unless it is whether the trigger and transfer bar work as required and the trigger goes back far enough for the hammer to get a full strike.  I will have to think about that for a while.

Here is something more to think about concerning dies, chambers, reamers and tolerances.

I just finished rechambering the Ruger 223 OEM barrel to 222 RM, I had previously threaded and headspaced the barrel to the stub frame.  I used a reamer from Reamer Rentals.  It was an older Shawnee Tools reamer NOT the very nice PT&G reamers they normally send out.  It was dull and had one flute slightly higher than the rest so it continually "jumped" every revolution.

The meat of the information pertaining to the tolerances and what can happen if they stack the wrong way is:
   I used a new R-P case sized in a set of standard RCBS dies using a standard shell holder with the neck turned down to remove all the neck and leave just the shoulder.  I cut the chamber to a measured 0.002" deeper than the end of the barrel...for a reason explained in just a bit.

I loaded up a sized case with 25 gr H4895 and a 55 gr Sierra Sp I seated long enough to need a good snap to close the action.  The new UNSIZED case shoulder measured 3.525" with a Stoney 17 cal headspace guage...THE SIZED SHOULDER MEASURED THE SAME meaning the sizer DIDN't touch the shoulder of the case using a standard shell holder...remember this, it is telling you all something very important.

The shoulder OD on the new UNFIRED case measured ~0.352" and the base measured 0.375"...sizing DIDN"T change any of these dimensions...again remember this it is screaming important information at you.

I fired the cartridge and again measured the shoulder length at 3.530", the shoulder OD at 0.357" and the base at 0.3765".  

You can see that the shoulder INCREASED in length 0.005" the shoulder OD increased 0.005" and the base increased 0.0015".  You can see that reamers, chambers tolerance are NOT all the same under the sun.

Now the final bit.  The case shoulder length SIZED in the standard set of dies BUT using a Redding Competition PLUS 0.004" shell holder came out to be 0.3529", the shoulder OD ended up 0.3555" and the base OD ened up 0.374".

You can see there are multiple size changes in one cycle of firing and reloading.  In this case the size changes are not all that bad and some can be reduced buy using bushing dies or polishing out the sizer and matching the case to the chamber. I was very carefull in cutting the chamber and doing all the measurements and I PURPOSEFULLY cut the chamber SLIGHTLY long so I could use the Comp shell holders to regulate the final head space...which is totally NOT DONE in a factory chamber.  Even at that with all the mucking about the chamber came out 0.005" deeper when I wanted only 0.002".  All these tolerances are small compared to some factory AND re-chambers I've seen.

I have a 338-06 I like very much...until Redding came out with it's comp shell holders I had to use a home made 0.020" thick horseshoe to resize the brass otherwise I would get about 3 reloads before the brass came apart just above the base...that chamber done by a 'smith in San Diego, ca...he also cut thew throat for the long 270 gr now very discontinued Speer bullets.  But I'm lucky, it likes the Hornady 225gr SP's, but I have to load an additional 4-6 grains of powder due to the bullet jump.

With all that has been said and done, if I had a 35 Whelen that was giving me S***, I would have just rechambered to the improved or the Brown-Whelen version and called it good.  The good thing with the AI version is you CAN shoot factory ammo in it(maybe) but the B-W needs the shoulder moved forward so you HAVE to stuff the bullet up into the lands.





These are projects perpetually in progress...have different ways of attaching the forend and both forends are made of alum.  The unpainted one on the 22RM has been full length bedded, the one on the 6mmBR is free floading and uses a "hanger" with two T/C Condender dovetail mounts and one button head machine screw to hold the forend on the hanger.  The BR load hovers around.500-.700" with one load VMax bullet load and I haven't tried to better it. ;D ::)

Hope this information turns on a light for you all...

Luck