Author Topic: Mouse guns (Read 3106 times)

jamaldog87 · « **on:** August 09, 2010, 07:48:00 AM »

what do you thank about Mouse guns for light carry(22LR,25acp or 32acp) ? Guns like the Beretta Bobcat, 950 Jetfire, tom cat or taurus 22b/25. i think there ok for when you are walking your dog or something like that.

LocnLod · « **Reply #1 on:** August 09, 2010, 10:30:01 AM »

I think they're better than nothing when you can't wear the appropriate clothing to conceal something more powerful. But assuming you're going to pocket carry, why not pocket carry a S&W J frame in .38+P/.357 or even a Glock 26 in an appropriate holster?

born-to-hunt · « **Reply #2 on:** August 09, 2010, 10:46:02 AM »

maybe if you wanted something just to hide in your boot or something

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2010, 06:49:28 AM »

It been so hot here i can see haveing one in a pocket.

Brett · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2010, 08:45:45 AM »

I would carry one if I ever thought I might be attacked by a mouse.

There are good, affordable .38spl, .357mag revolvers and 9mm semi auto's small enough for pocket carry that I would choose way before anything in .380acp or smaller.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2010, 09:20:29 AM »

When I would walk the dog out in the vinyards and around the back country in Southern CA
I would often carry a Mouse gun.
Mine was a Walther TPH in 22 LR.
My 38 Spl Pulls down the sweats.
I carried it for a couple reasons.
it was small and in Ca guns freak people out.
we had coyotes and rattle snakes and a mouse gun was perfect for them.
Since it was so small I think the noise level rivals by 308 Rifle.
I have used it a couple of times in shooting at Coyotes, and putting a round into the ground near a large Irish Wolf hound that had my friends dog by the neck and was starting to shake it. one loud BANG and all four dogs ran into their respective corners.
Mine was being mauled by an English sheep dog.
When Shamus, the Wolf hound, recovered from the noise he started to come after me. I am 5'10 and if I stoop a little We look eye.
I stuck out the walther and yelled at him to sit and then yelled go home, not wanting to shoot him but confidant that I would hurt him enough to get away with the 36 grain HP loads.
Other times when we had some shifty people in the vinyards I did not feel under guned wish i had my P226 with me but would have used the mouse gun. Since I carried it in the mornings, it went to the range with me every time and got a couple mags through it to keep current with it.

Greeenriver · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2010, 04:39:53 PM »

The 22LR in your pocket beats the hell out of the 45acp on the stand beside your bed, if your out in the yard and not near the bed.

The gun in your hand, and the mind behind it, will always prevail ovet the gun NOT in reach.

greeenriver

trotterlg · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2010, 06:31:30 PM »

They are easy to carry, and don't have to be much bigger than a key case. I take this one everywhere, every day and don't even think about it. NAA 22 Short, I will try to get the picture up. Larry

mrussel · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2010, 08:44:52 PM »

Quote from: jamaldog87 on August 09, 2010, 07:48:00 AM

what do you thank about Mouse guns for light carry(22LR,25acp or 32acp) ? Guns like the Beretta Bobcat, 950 Jetfire, tom cat or taurus 22b/25. i think there ok for when you are walking your dog or something like that.

I would put 32acp in a different catagory than 25. 32acp used to be carried by police all over the world. It might leave something to be desired,but its certainly can do its job. In fact,WWI started with a 32acp. I don't see the point of it anymore though. You can get a 380 as small or smaller than a 32 these days. Thats the smallest I would bother with for any practical purposes. Still,if there is a situation where even that's too big,I guess ANY gun is better than no gun. Ive been thinking about getting one of those tiny ruger LCP .380 autos.

born-to-hunt · « **Reply #9 on:** August 12, 2010, 06:01:53 AM »

Is it legal to carry more than 1 firearm at a time? and that would be cool to just carry like a keychain. and I agree with greeenriver a .22 in the hand beats a .45 on the other side of the house when you need one right away.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #10 on:** August 12, 2010, 07:10:18 AM »

Quote from: born-to-hunt on August 12, 2010, 06:01:53 AM

Is it legal to carry more than 1 firearm at a time? and that would be cool to just carry like a keychain. and I agree with greeenriver a .22 in the hand beats a .45 on the other side of the house when you need one right away.

A Key chain.
Are you out of your mind?
I had a cashier at the boat store that had a mag version in her purse. Cliped in a holster but there.
Her husband one day called me and said take her gun and please clean it and load fresh ammo in it.
I am not a big guy and that little gun scared me.
Same with a Davis 22 Mag Derringer someone gave me years ago.
Both are too easy to make go bang when not wanted. and trying to stuff a loaded gun into your jeans pocket with keys attached sounds like a trip to the hospital to have a hole plugged or have a silly nick name like Uni ball or short rod. (can I say those?)

mrussel · « **Reply #11 on:** August 12, 2010, 05:24:33 PM »

Quote from: born-to-hunt on August 12, 2010, 06:01:53 AM

Is it legal to carry more than 1 firearm at a time? and that would be cool to just carry like a keychain. and I agree with greeenriver a .22 in the hand beats a .45 on the other side of the house when you need one right away.

It depends on where you live. A gun on a keychain doesnt seem to be a good idea. Actually,a gun MADE to go on a key chain might though,but you would need some kind of safety on it made to protect you under that environment. I would expect something that didnt look like a gun either. There is a certain irony in the idea of a keychain gun that looked like a gun,but since its on a keychain,everyone would assume it was not a gun,but once it became common knowledge that such things were out there it wouldn't work anymore.

mrussel · « **Reply #12 on:** August 12, 2010, 05:25:56 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on August 12, 2010, 07:10:18 AM

or have a silly nick name like Uni ball or short rod. (can I say those?)

That one made my day. "Yea,like the damn pen,can we let it drop!"

born-to-hunt · « **Reply #13 on:** August 13, 2010, 07:22:00 AM »

OK yeah the keychain might not be so good but I have seen belt buckles that hold small guns like that I thought that was cool.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 13, 2010, 09:01:39 AM »

I have seen online Neck Chain Holster for the Kel-Tec P32-3AT,Cobra Enterprises Standard Bore and Big Bore Derringers ,Ruger LCP, and North American and Freedom Arms 22 LR and the 22 Magnum "Mini-Revolvers".

I have also seen pen guns but those are AOW guns now.

PA-Joe · « **Reply #15 on:** August 13, 2010, 09:10:39 AM »

Get yourself a little Polish P-64 in 9mmx18.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2010, 10:47:26 AM »

Quote from: jamaldog87 on August 13, 2010, 09:01:39 AM

I have seen online Neck Chain Holster for the Kel-Tec P32-3AT,Cobra Enterprises Standard Bore and Big Bore Derringers ,Ruger LCP, and North American and Freedom Arms 22 LR and the 22 Magnum "Mini-Revolvers".

I have also seen pen guns but those are AOW guns now.

Key words are holsters.
A holster is designed to keep a gun safe and in place for when you need it.
Be it a pocket, belt, designed for a neck chain or as a elt buckle.
It is designed to hold it and keep it from going off.
I can tell you I Don't like the idea of a holster on a neck chain.
If you reach in your shirt to draw it. It's now in your hand aimed at your head, upper chest, or neck.
No thanks.
Pocket holster, In the waist band, ankle, or hip only for me.

williamlayton · « **Reply #17 on:** August 14, 2010, 04:53:26 AM »

Not as a slam on mouse guns--well maybe a little

.
I keep hearing the words "cool" and "concealable" and "little."
I like words like "shootability" and "accurate" and "handles well" and "fits the hand."
Cool and consealable are "not" words that I use to describe a CCW.
My p220 Sig is concealable and findable.
Small has no definable characteristic of a CCW in my opinion--especially "mouse."
Blessings

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #18 on:** August 14, 2010, 06:40:26 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on August 14, 2010, 04:53:26 AM

Not as a slam on mouse guns--well maybe a little .
I keep hearing the words "cool" and "concealable" and "little."
I like words like "shootability" and "accurate" and "handles well" and "fits the hand."
Cool and consealable are "not" words that I use to describe a CCW.
My p220 Sig is concealable and findable.
Small has no definable characteristic of a CCW in my opinion--especially "mouse."
Blessings

LOL.
I agree.
A Sig P22_ Series is a whole lot better than any mouse gun.
My P230 while smaller I do not think of as a mouse gun.
I consider it and other 380's of medium frame on par with a J frame in 38 Spl. So Colt 1903 / 1908, Beretta Cheata, Walther PP,PPK/S
I think Mouse guns have a place and a purpose.
I think there is a difference between a Mouse gun and a Novelty.
I think a Walther TPH, Colt pocket in .25, SeaCamp (and Copies in .32), S&W I frame & Beretta tip barrels are mouse guns. Not sure if a Walther PPK fits this catagory or the above.
The idea of a novelty gun is cute. I do not find them practicle. That little revolver in 22LR while neat is not practicle. They are too small to manipulate well and make multiple hits quickly. At least for me. I saw the little derringer I had the same way. While neat it was not practicle to conceal, draw, arm (set the hammer and take off the safety) and aim in a fluid movement. That short fluid movement that would be needed to defend your self.
I also think your age, activity, and climate may dictate the need for a mouse or pocket gun.
The older I get the less I go out in sweats. The TPH can sit in the pocket of the sweats, but my Sig P230, or Det Spl send them strait to the floor. I am not one that wears my draws around my thighs. Moving from Southern Ca where anything more than shorts and a polo out for a walk in the summer with the mutt would stand out, a full frame is not practicle. A pocket or mouse gun is. Also the threat to me with the Dog are not going to be two legged. No one will try to attack me with a large dog at my side. My concerns would be other dogs, and wild life like Coyotes or rattle snakes. I need a gun that I can carry based on condition, climate, and be able to hit things like a snake from 15'.
Now that I live in Northern CA on the coast I wear more clothes and a walk today would include a jacket. It is 57 degrees at 8:30 am and foggy. My jacket can easily hold a meduim frame auto, J, K, or L Frame 2 or 3" revolver, even my Sig P-229 can slip into my field coat hand warmer pocket and not show. Also on this side of 40 I do not go jogging any more but longer walks where a heavier caliber and larger gun is more practicle in jean or khakis rather than sweats that are capible of holding a pocket or full sized gun. If i were to mover back to the deserts of Southern CA or go to a friends house in the central valley in summer where temperatures soar over 90, I would want my mouse gun rather than no gun. I also know I can make multiple hits in an attacker's face quickly. To stop them from doing what I thought was a threat to my life.

Dee · « **Reply #19 on:** August 14, 2010, 07:19:22 AM »

I have a 2" Smith Model 60 in 357 magnum. I have slicked it up, both inside, AND out. It doesn't have any rough edges and can be carried in a boot, and I carry it in a boot to certain functions, and an inside the waist band, and sometimes in a pants, or coat pocket.
Is it a mouse gun? Not hardly, but if I ever have to fight again with a pistol, I sincerely hope that my opponent believes in the "mouse gun theory" and is carrying his favorite one that day.
I've told this story a few months ago, about a large dog crashing thru his owners living room window to get out of the house and coming to my house to kill or cripple my little fenced in Jack Russell. This travelling dog weighed around 80 pounds and was a determined k-9. I had my Model 60 in my pants pocket, and while my little dog wanted to do combat, my wife was demanding immediate relief from the threat to her dog. The shot I made was less than perfect, as the dog tried to back me off, (in my own yard), but after removing about 85% of his right ear with a 125 grain jacketed hollow point, he elected to go home for repairs. A 22lr for defending my life, and my families life? Never by choice, or lackadaisical attitude. If it comes to a trigger pullin, I want it to count. Really count!

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #20 on:** August 14, 2010, 08:39:29 AM »

But Dee,
You are a large man and a J frame is a mouse gun to you.
A Walther PP / Sig P230 probably fits in your hand like a Sea Camp or the TPH fits in mine. I wear a Medium glove.
Your pockets are larger than mine and can hold a larger gun. A S&W 442 does not fit in my jeans front pocket and come out. The stocks are exposed if I stuff the 442 into a back pocket in place of my wallet. Trust me I wish it did. But a J frame for most of us would be the same as you trying to tuck away a 3" K frame. Us hiding a PP series is like you hiding a Colt 1911 comander.
My TPH does fit in my jeans pockets. More importantly it comes out. And while a 22LR is not ideal it is better than my pocket knife. As I said earlier I know it will take multiple hits to stop an attack, be it two legged or four. A friend of mine did killed two pit bulls with a single shot each through a screen door with a Ruger Single six in 22 LR when they were trying to chew their way into his house.
And maybe someday I will upgrade my Mouse gun to a .32acp, a Sea camp or other similar sized gun. 60 grains to 71 are better than 40. And 95 grains or 125 are still better.
But the size of the gun and being able to use it are what limit me to a 22LR.

Dee · « **Reply #21 on:** August 14, 2010, 08:48:41 AM »

Well mcduck I won't argue size, because it is an issue, but not an insurmountable one. I have seen guys that don't break 5'6" hide a 1911. It's all in how much one thinks of ones SELF. My idea of a ccw is #1, I'm gonna try to avoid the fight first. #2, if I have to fight it'll most likely be close in. SO! In some cases a knife and the fortitude to use it might be better than a 22lr. I have seen several killed with a 22lr, but most were suicides, and the few that weren't, were miracle shots, two of which were cheap weapons dropped on a hard surface. The body shot deaths, weren't even close to instant stops, and didn't put the men down immediately.
One must ask ones self: How much effort and expense is my life worth? Mine's worth more than a "little" convenience, and definitely worth more than a 22. At least to me. If your good to go with a 22, then by all means, but were there's a will there is a way, and it isn't that difficult.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #22 on:** August 14, 2010, 09:00:09 AM »

Dee,
Something else just dawned on me.
You may look at what I call a mouse gun the same way I look at the Smaller guns I call novelty guns.
To me a mouse gun is what is practile to shoot under stress.
A novelty gun is something small that you can shoot but not in stressful situation.
Then again what I think of as not practicle may be perfect for someone smaller than I am and i guess the deffinition of Novelty, Mouse, Pocket, full size, and over sized guns move from person to person.
My old secratary is 4' 11" and teaching her to shoot her J fame, I had to readjust my thinking and teach as if I were showing someone my size how to shoot an N frame. My N Frame was too large for her to pull the trigger one handed. She can not get a joint on the trigger to get the leverage to get the hammer to go back. Same with her fathers L framed 586 with hogue stocks. Replacing the stocks to coke bottles on the 586 she can.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #23 on:** August 14, 2010, 09:23:35 AM »

I have carried a S&W M 29 with a 6" barrel while wearing shorts and a windbreaker while taking a bus from VA beach to Norfolk.
Did it hide, Yep. When I got to my frineds house there were police there as he hosed a guy with pepper spray 20 min earlier and none of the police or my friends figured out I had a gun till the police left and I pulled it out to leave it there, so we could go to the bars.
We found the guy as the pepper spray had a baby blue foam marker and I passed him on my way to his house.
The N frame hid but was not practicle as a daily walking gun. At the time I had 2 options for a gun. 1- Browning Buck mark and 2- S&W 29 with 44 Spl loads. I carried the 44 as I knew I may need a real gun. My dangers were two legged and unknown.
Where I carry a mouse gun i have little fear. Walking the dog, going to the grocery store at Noon.
Going to the ATM at midnight.... NO. greater threat. Would I go to an ATM at midnight? not if I could help it. Would I tuck a P-229 in my waist band.. You bet.
I am not saying the Mouse gun is the be all do all gun. I am simply saying they have a place and reason to be an option.
If I could only own one handgun for CCW a mouse gun would not be it. A J frame 442 or pocket Auto like a Kahr 9 or Sig P230 would be.
Actually When in VA I did buy the P230 as a CCW gun in the mid 90's. At that time the sub compact 9's had not be brought out.

Dee · « **Reply #24 on:** August 14, 2010, 09:33:25 AM »

mcduck, your the last guy here I would challenge, I am merely telling it the way I see it. It is truly a different strokes for different folks issue. I have LIMITED myself to just three hand guns. A 2 1/2" 686, the Model 60, and the Buckmark you already know about. When I hit the woods, I many times take just the Buckmark, but the likely hood of a fight is almost nil, and there is always the 686 within reach as long as I'm in the truck, or the rifle I am usually carrying.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #25 on:** August 14, 2010, 10:04:04 AM »

Challange away.
I am a gun guy. I have lots of them and shoot them.
On occasion I carry them for target, hunting, or Self protection.
You on the other hand have used them for self protection. Have seen real shootings and been in shootouts.
I have only pulled a gun three times for protection. Two were a 22LR. the first was when a guy broke into my house in Norflok as that was all I had at the time, the dog story above, and the Third was a Sig P226 when two friends of Roderick Peoples, the guy who stole my truck, threatend me with base ball bats not to testafy against him. They dropped the bats and left. With my testamony he plead to 50 years no parole.
I have only seen one 38 Spl bullet hole in a person.
It was in my upper thigh. While a good amount of blood it only slowed me down. It also did not hit any thing vital or structural. And I walked 2 miles home.
I have shot lots of critters with all kinds of fire arms and the Mouse gun goes against everything I say to use when hunting and deer pigs and medium game do not fight back, attack, or take drugs. I would still want to have a 22LR that I can hit with in my pocket while out for a walk than not having something. I hope I am not wrong.

Robert357 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 14, 2010, 02:39:03 PM »

OK, I'll add my 2 cents.

I have always wondered what a mouse gun really is.

I have a Baby Browning in 25 Auto and know it is a mouse gun. I have a KelTec P3-AT in .380 Auto and have been told by some that it is a mouse gun. I have a KelTec PF-9 and some folks say it is a mouse gun because I carry it normally in my jeans front pant pocket in a holster, others say that as a 9mmx19mm it is not a mouse gun. I have an AMT .45 ACP Back-up pistol that is smaller than my KelTec PF-9 and some say it is and some say it isn't a mouse gun. I also have a Taurus Ultra Lite snub nose 38 Special that can be pocket carried and get mixed views on that.

Some websites like mouseguns.com equate "pocket pistols" with the term mouseguns. Other websites, like the concealedcarryforum.com classify mouseguns as just about anything smaller in caliber than a "service round" which includes 9x19 mm, 38 Special, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Sig, .357 Mag. So they would say that any 9mm Makarov, .380 Auto, .32 Auto, .25 Auto or .22 cal chambered handgun would be a mousegun. To these folks it really doesn't matter if the handgun is pocket concealable or not.

Personally, I think that there is a near continuous spectrum of caliber power from .22 CB short to 44 Rem Mag and beyond, with different folks drawing lines at different locations. To me the key is what trade offs do you want to make for concealability versus cartridge power and number of rounds in the handgun. I also have an Astra Stainless Steel snubnose DA revolver in .44 Rem Mag that was sold under the model name "Terminator." It is way to heavy for pocket carry, but not many folks have called that a mousegun.

My favorite pocket pistols are the KelTec PF-9 in 9mm, the KelTec P3-AT in .380 Auto, and the 5 shot .38 Special DA Taurus UltraLite Snubnose Revolver. The .45 ACP AMT back up is just a little too heavy for pocket carry most of the time. I have carried my Baby Browning .25 Auto at times, but always felt it was a little underpowered. Anytime I carry the Astra Terminator it is with an IWB holster.

The problem with pocket carry handguns is that they are usually extreme designs that are focused on concealability at the expense of other shooting factors. Most have short barrels and hence short sight radius and therefore limited accuracy. They are almost always a compromise of both good and bad characteristics.

PS
I collect pre-end-of-WW1 .32 Auto pistols and have about two dozen of them. Several could be carried as pocket pistorls, but few have the modern safety features that would allow me to feel really comfortable to concealed carry one with a live round in the chamber. I feel that .32 Auto is probably about as small a round as I would ever want for self defense; unless ultra concealability is required (say via a Baby Browning). However, most current production firearms that are available in .32 Auto are also available in . 380 in a similar design, therefore I would opt for .380 as a minimum caliber in most situations.

williamlayton · « **Reply #27 on:** August 15, 2010, 03:59:00 AM »

A PPK, to me, is not a mouse gun and this sized weapon is as small as I want.
If I got to hold it with two fingers it is too damn small.
Blessings

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #28 on:** August 15, 2010, 05:20:32 AM »

William,
When you say PPK do you mean PPK or PPK/s?
A PPK is a chopped and bobbed PP. With about 1" off the barrel and one 380 round out of the grip.
A PPK/S was made to get around the 68 gun laws and is a PPK Barrel on a PP frame.
With the grip extention I can get my whole hand on the gun.
Other than that my Pinky sits under the mag.
I have only handled a couple PPK guns and they are tiny, I can almost get 2 fingers on them much like my TPH.
The new PPK/S with the extended beaver tail makes the gun larger but gets rid of the slide bite and makes practice a lot more friendly.
Again I see the PP sized guns as Pocket or Medium framed guns not a mouse gun.
Or were you talking about the .380 caliber as a minimum?

williamlayton · « **Reply #29 on:** August 15, 2010, 09:16:10 AM »

I have both the PP and the PPK.
As I have them before me--
PP=longer barrel and one more round.
PPK=short barrel and 1 less round.
With the mag in, I can grip both with all fingers.
These are as small as I am willing to go. I have carries the PP to a wedding in a cumberbun--it was a fall wedding and I was wearing a black tux & cumberbun--thus the blued PP.
I know zip about the PPK/S.
The .380 with ball is a good CQB round.
Blessings