Mouse guns

[Dee]

mcduck, what I consider a mouse gun is an inadequate caliber to protect ones self. I don't care if it's mounted on a cason and pulled by 4 Perchon horses, if it's minor caliber I would not want to fight with it. I consider anything below 38 caliber (357) to be minor caliber, regardless of the latest new computer designed hollow point, which still may not work if stopped up with clothing material.
Robert is right, in that there are mouse guns by different definitions, by different folks. I consider a two shot derringer in 357 magnum, 40 S&W, 45 LC, or 45acp better than a 7 shot 380, which is nothing more than a dampened, and already anemic 9mm parabellum. But that's just me, and no one has to agree. This is just my definition of a mouse gun. Not so much it's overall size if it is not so small it is useless, but it's power to get me out of a bad situation. Shootings with individual citizens are seldom ever like the movies with folks running, and diving over cars and what not. They are up close, and very personal, and less than 7 or 8 rounds are fired by both combatants PUT TO TOGETHER. That is not my opinion but national stats for the last 40 years. If I am 6 or 7 feet from my opponent, I want maximum damage every time I pull the trigger.
I taught the double tap fighting method (but don't care for it) starting in the early 80s when the "wonder 9s" entered into law enforcement. It was taught because of the street failures the 9mms were having in actual street fights by law enforcement. I found by talking with many officers, and SWATERs that those that liked the 9mm, had never fought with the 9mm. Before anyone jumps on that remark, I know there are exceptions, but this is my opinion and personal research, and you don't have to agree.

[mrussel]

 Not sure if a Walther PPK fits this catagory or the above.

 Go wash your mouth out with soap. Thats James Bonds gun! Seriously though,I sort of think of the cutoff as the PPKs and the old browning designs chambered in 380. Anything smaller than may well be too small. I would like to see some data on muzzle velocities (I may well have to take my 32 out and see for myself) of the larger 32s with longer barrels. I suspect there is going to be a huge difference in lethality between a 32acp from a 4 or 5 inch barrel and from a 2" barrel. In fact,you see people talking about how anything in 32 is just useless and anything in 380 is better,but I also wonder how a tiny little barrel on a 380 compares to a 5" barrel on a 32. Guns such as the latter were carried by police all over the world for years. While we all agree,including the officers that carried them for the most part,that it was underpowered,it was far from ineffective.

[mrussel]

mcduck, what I consider a mouse gun is an inadequate caliber to protect ones self. I don't care if it's mounted on a cason and pulled by 4 Perchon horses, if it's minor caliber I would not want to fight with it. I consider anything below 38 caliber (357) to be minor caliber, regardless of the latest new computer designed hollow point, which still may not work if stopped up with clothing material.
Robert is right, in that there are mouse guns by different definitions, by different folks. I consider a two shot derringer in 357 magnum, 40 S&W, 45 LC, or 45acp better than a 7 shot 380, which is nothing more than a dampened, and already anemic 9mm parabellum. But that's just me, and no one has to agree. This is just my definition of a mouse gun. Not so much it's overall size if it is not so small it is useless, but it's power to get me out of a bad situation. Shootings with individual citizens are seldom ever like the movies with folks running, and diving over cars and what not. They are up close, and very personal, and less than 7 or 8 rounds are fired by both combatants PUT TO TOGETHER. That is not my opinion but national stats for the last 40 years. If I am 6 or 7 feet from my opponent, I want maximum damage every time I pull the trigger.
I taught the double tap fighting method (but don't care for it) starting in the early 80s when the "wonder 9s" entered into law enforcement. It was taught because of the street failures the 9mms were having in actual street fights by law enforcement. I found by talking with many officers, and SWATERs that those that liked the 9mm, had never fought with the 9mm. Before anyone jumps on that remark, I know there are exceptions, but this is my opinion and personal research, and you don't have to agree.

I understand what your saying,but I hesitate to make blanket statements on bullet diameters. As you have said here a 9mm 380,is underpowered,while a 9mm 357 magnum has plenty of power. I understand that a 7.65x25 has better penetration than a 357,although I know little of its actual effectiveness (and of course a 45 is very effective,but has worse penetration than either). Its just hard to make blanket statements based on things like bullet diameter though.I bet I can find something in 45 that's vastly inferior to a 9mm. (Im talking pistols of course,rifles are a whole different ball game)

[Dee]

I Suppose it is a blanket statement, but I will stick with it anyway. AND! You are correct in saying certain areas concerning the 45acp verses the 9mm. EXAMPLE: 45acp ball many times will not penetrate car wind shields, and 9mm ball most times will. However! 45acp ball ammo will expend far more energy INSIDE a perp than 9mm ball will, which usually will zip on thru. 45acp will more often break bone, while 9mm will more often glance off bone, both dependant on bullet configuration.
In 1977 I used a 357 magnum to stop a situation where a car was cover. The 357 magnum performed fairly well. In June of 1978, a similar situation where a car was cover, and the 45acp I was carrying failed miserably, but I still finished first.
As a whole thru my PERSONAL experience these are the boundaries I have came to accept for MYSELF, and as you said it is somewhat of a blanket statement, but I will hang with it, as thru my own experience, and that of other officers I personally questioned, I am comfortable with my decision on minimum caliber. It is all dependent on the individual, and their own decision.
The most important decision is before someone carrys, will they, and can they emotionally, stand and fight. Many claim they can, but can't, and most claim they can, and don't really know. In 1966, a friend of mine stood at the front fender of a patrol car, while a black panther member stood at the opposite side fender, and they shot it out across the car hood, with the perp getting the first shot off. Their guns were less than 3 feet apart. No one quit until the perp took a 357 mag round to the chin. By the way, the perp was armed with a 1911 that was working very well, but not well enough to beat the six shooter. That friend also won another fight with the same wheel gun in 1979 against a sawed off shotgun. That perp also got the first round off. Both of these fights occurred late at night, and there were not night sights, or laser back then. It was difficult conditions, and a don't quit attitude that won both fights. How many have the grit to stand and fight a guy like my friend? There are perps that have that much grit, and once it starts it has to be finished. Folks need to consider that, as sometimes pulling a gun escalates the situation, rather than deterring it.
There are many considerations beyond caliber, and platform, such as temperament.

[mrussel]

I have both the PP and the PPK.
As I have them before me--
PP=longer barrel and one more round.
PPK=short barrel and 1 less round.
With the mag in, I can grip both with all fingers.
These are as small as I am willing to go. I have carries the PP to a wedding in a cumberbun--it was a fall wedding and I was wearing a black tux & cumberbun--thus the blued PP.
I know zip about the PPK/S.
The .380 with ball is a good CQB round.
Blessings   

 Now THESE are mouse guns! http://boingboing.net/2009/08/29/tiny-pinfire-guns.html

[Dee]

WOW! Those aren't mouse guns. Those are ameba guns.

[mcwoodduck]

Dee,
I do not think anyone will agrue with you that the Remington 125 Grain SJHP out of a 4' revolver is the King of the one stop shot contest.
More people have tried to douplicate it with 38 Super, 356 STW, 357 Sig, and others to get an auto to do what the revolver can do and increase capacity.  I will argue about the 2" barrel as not being the same.  But that is for another post.
Some unknowing Cult of Colt low priest will argue with you that the 1911  in 45 ACP is the best and that 93% and 97% are the same when you add in the extra rounds.  But as you pointed out in Evan Marshall's book 8 rounds were a total average of gun fights.  Also in Marshal's book he pointed out with a Gold Cup in 45ACP with Ball ammo vs. a Jennings in 22LR loaded with Stingers and the single shot from the 22 Won while 7 hits from the 45 faild to knock down the guy with the 22.  And shot placement is paramount.
But This is about mouse guns.  I know I can carry larger guns I just need to do a few things to make it happen.  Some of those thinks will have me leave the gun home.
A 3" K frame Model 65 is not much larger than the Walther PP or Sig P230.
When I bought my 380 in the early 90's my chioces were limited.
When I am carrying a Mouse gun.  I know it is a bad choice, I think it is a trade off of bad choice or no choice.
I live in CA and do not have the option of a CCW.  My chioce If I think I need a gun or want a gun has to be hidden from law enforcement as well.  i do not have the option of flipping out a permit like I did in VA when I was carrying the P230 in a Bicycle and riding through a not so nice section of town to get to and from work.  i did practice riding and shooting.  I went through 100's of rounds before I could make center mass hits  with the 380 and still ride.   i practiced wiping out the bike as if someone knocked me off the bike as I rode by.
Now, I would like at the Sig P245 or a M65 3' as a carry gun to replace the P230.  And I agree I want to make the most damage I can if I need to shoot.
I can say the 9mm did what I needed it to do when I pulled it.  It stopped an attack.  I did not need to shoot and find out if the 115 grain JHP loads I had would stop the two.  I am glad it was base ball bats and not shotguns.  I am glad I have not needed to find out if a mouse gun, pocket gun, duty gun or hunting gun will stop an attacker and hope I never do.  I am confidant that I can pull the trigger and send rounds where I need to, with what ever I have on me.

[mrussel]

Dee,
I do not think anyone will agrue with you that the Remington 125 Grain SJHP out of a 4' revolver is the King of the one stop shot contest.
More people have tried to douplicate it with 38 Super, 356 STW, 357 Sig, and others to get an auto to do what the revolver can do and increase capacity.  I will argue about the 2" barrel as not being the same.  But that is for another post.
Some unknowing Cult of Colt low priest will argue with you that the 1911  in 45 ACP is the best and that 93% and 97% are the same when you add in the extra rounds.  But as you pointed out in Evan Marshall's book 8 rounds were a total average of gun fights.  Also in Marshal's book he pointed out with a Gold Cup in 45ACP with Ball ammo vs. a Jennings in 22LR loaded with Stingers and the single shot from the 22 Won while 7 hits from the 45 faild to knock down the guy with the 22.  And shot placement is paramount.
But This is about mouse guns.  I know I can carry larger guns I just need to do a few things to make it happen.  Some of those thinks will have me leave the gun home.
A 3" K frame Model 65 is not much larger than the Walther PP or Sig P230.
When I bought my 380 in the early 90's my chioces were limited.
When I am carrying a Mouse gun.  I know it is a bad choice, I think it is a trade off of bad choice or no choice.
I live in CA and do not have the option of a CCW.  My chioce If I think I need a gun or want a gun has to be hidden from law enforcement as well.  i do not have the option of flipping out a permit like I did in VA when I was carrying the P230 in a Bicycle and riding through a not so nice section of town to get to and from work.  i did practice riding and shooting.  I went through 100's of rounds before I could make center mass hits  with the 380 and still ride.   i practiced wiping out the bike as if someone knocked me off the bike as I rode by.
Now, I would like at the Sig P245 or a M65 3' as a carry gun to replace the P230.  And I agree I want to make the most damage I can if I need to shoot.
I can say the 9mm did what I needed it to do when I pulled it.  It stopped an attack.  I did not need to shoot and find out if the 115 grain JHP loads I had would stop the two.  I am glad it was base ball bats and not shotguns.  I am glad I have not needed to find out if a mouse gun, pocket gun, duty gun or hunting gun will stop an attacker and hope I never do.  I am confidant that I can pull the trigger and send rounds where I need to, with what ever I have on me.

 Thats something I have to agree with 100%. I used to live in California and on those occasions where you decide you really are better off taking a risk and carrying a gun,it must be concealed,not just from a the guy on the street,but from someone experienced in noticing exactly what your trying to hide. If your caught,your in a lot of trouble. When I moved to Utah,it actually took some getting used to. I went to get something better to carry and was still stuck thinking in that mind set,but ended up realizing,it was a little different. I went with a full sized 1911. While it certainly can be concealed,I dont have to worry about making a mistake,or moving wrong and printing it,or whatnot. I have that permit. In fact,sometimes its more convenient just to not conceal it at all and that's OK too. Certainly legality and the potential trouble if you get caught make quite a difference. Way back in the day,carrying a concealed weapon was a misdemeanor in Cali. (carrying a knife was a felony! Talk about odd laws) They "fixed" that however.

[Dee]

Here in Texas, you can get a permit to carry a concealed handgun on your person, and you can carry a concealed handgun in your vehicle WITHOUT a permit, but you can't carry a switch blade. Figure out the idiots that decided that one.

[Squib]

I think mentality is number one

two is does the gun shoot good (point of aim, controllability, trigger reset...)

relative power/performance is three

none of it matters at all if your basic weapons handling sucks  you must be able to spot and avoid a quick disarm, and know how to operate the weapon without fumbling, must know con 1-4 and be aware of which your weapon is, must be relatively fast, use a good stance to NOT get thrown around if the perp closes the distance, and not be an IDIOT and jam the gun into the guy and push it out of battery/ pop the cylinder out while grappling.


as a sidenote, lots of "commie"/coldwar era guns were using 7.62 and 9mm makarov which isn't so powerful, yet it worked for them just fine (they had lots of protesters to shoot, remember! 

[Squib]

what about 25naa and 32naa: mousegun specific ammo?

[trotterlg]

I think it is simple, something is better than nothing no matter what.  If lots and lots of people just put a tiny mouse gun in their pocket or purse and forgot about it, carried it 24/7, then there would probably be a lot less problems  out there.  If you wonder if your gun is too big to carry then it probably is, there will be times you leave it at home.  Not everyone can carry a 45 ACP every day, and I doubt most people really need to either.  Carry the best you can carry every single day to every place you go.  If you think you need a bigger gun where you are going you probably should not be going there.  I am an old guy, the 20 somethings probably have different thoughts on this.  Larry

[mrussel]

I think it is simple, something is better than nothing no matter what.  If lots and lots of people just put a tiny mouse gun in their pocket or purse and forgot about it, carried it 24/7, then there would probably be a lot less problems  out there.  If you wonder if your gun is too big to carry then it probably is, there will be times you leave it at home.  Not everyone can carry a 45 ACP every day, and I doubt most people really need to either.  Carry the best you can carry every single day to every place you go.  If you think you need a bigger gun where you are going you probably should not be going there.  I am an old guy, the 20 somethings probably have different thoughts on this.  Larry

  My feeling is that #1 is practice and skill. As they say,you cant miss fast enough to end a gun a fight in your favor. There are also alot of people who have trouble affording a half way decent gun and find it impossible to afford any meaningful amount of practice. Of course,if you can rarely afford to practice,ANY practice is meaningful I guess,but still,the long and the short of it is that they wont practice nearly as much as they need to. I have wondered if for those people, perhaps a 22LR of some sort IS the best self defense gun. At 15 dollars or so for 500 rounds, they can afford to get in a lot of practice. I wonder whether the increased chance of actually hitting the BG and the increased rate of fire (a 22 is accurate and fast.) might offset the advantages the larger weapon has,if you take into account the potential differences in skill. For instance,if you let off 5 shots,with a 38% chance of a one shot stop (a number I pulled off the internet,if your favorite source says its 42 or 33%,assume we more or less agree) then if we assume a 50/50 chance to hit for each shot,then you chances of taking down the BG are (.5*(1-.38))^5 + (...)^4 +....+(.5*(1-.38))= (0.31)^5+.....(0.31) about 40%. Of course its probably much better than that since bullet wounds are not statistically independent. Your probably more than twice as likely to die from two well placed bullet wounds than you are to die from one. If on the other hand,you have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting the BG (for each shot fired) with a gun you took to the range once a year,even if its for instance chambered in 45ACP with a 96% one shot stop rate,and you can only get off three reasonably aimed shots,then your chance is around 35%. If you haven't even trained to the point where you will know enough to try to actually AIM at the BG rather than holding it like you see in the movies and emptying the magazine in the attackers general direction then your going to do even worse.

[Spirithawk]

I realy like my Kel Tec P32. I could have gotten the .380 but around here .380 ammo is mighty scarce and an empty gun is just an expensive paper weight. I carry the P32 as back up for my two 9mm's. One an XD and the other a Cobra Derringer. As I see it, let me tap two to the chest, one to the head, with the P32 and if you're still in the mood to fight I'll quit carrying it. It's reliable and accurate at reasonable ranges and small enough it goes everywhere with me every day. It's often there when my larger handguns aren't. I don't care what I'm firing, if I have to shoot someone, I'm not stopping pulling the trigger untill they go down or I run out of ammo!

[mrussel]

I realy like my Kel Tec P32. I could have gotten the .380 but around here .380 ammo is mighty scarce and an empty gun is just an expensive paper weight. I carry the P32 as back up for my two 9mm's. One an XD and the other a Cobra Derringer. As I see it, let me tap two to the chest, one to the head, with the P32 and if you're still in the mood to fight I'll quit carrying it. It's reliable and accurate at reasonable ranges and small enough it goes everywhere with me every day. It's often there when my larger handguns aren't. I don't care what I'm firing, if I have to shoot someone, I'm not stopping pulling the trigger until they go down or I run out of ammo!

 Here its just the opposite,32 is scarce as hens teeth. Im a little worried about the kind of velocities that a 2.5" barrel will get with a 32acp. (or actually,that it wont get) If ammo was a problem,I would just get some dies. (actually I have 32 dies becuase ammo IS a problem for my 32. I wouldn't carry it though,not becuase its not big enough,it was good enough for French customs agents,but becuase I dont feel that its design is safe if its dropped with a round in the chamber.) I know there is a school of thought that says that reloading may be used against you if you have to shoot someone,but if you cant get ammo,then your left with that choice. Of course better guns stores will special order you what you need. My favorite one even offered to order me 8x56R. If they can get that I dont think 380 is a big deal. I assume that since you say that ammo availability was a problem,you live in one of those states that wont let you mail order ammunition.