Author Topic: Survival Scenario... What would you do?  (Read 3082 times)

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Offline TX Devil Doc

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Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« on: August 09, 2010, 10:06:14 AM »
On another recent thread, I was addressing fire starting and remembered another similar experiment a friend and I conducted while in the field in west Texas hunting hogs. We discussed this prior to leaving for the hunt, so we were able to predefine the parameters. It went like this...

Put together a survival pack with the essential items you believe you would need to survive in the field.
The terrain in this scenario is mountainous forest in late autumn.
You and a companion were in a small aircraft that had engine problems and were forced to land in a meadow.
Your last coordinate was at 50° 49' 0" N / 119° 41' 0" W and you were heading north-northwest.
Time: 1600 hrs. and you had not made radio contact for 20 minutes.

Injury report;
You: moderately sprained right shoulder and right wrist. Minor cuts on head/neck/face.
Companion: mildly sprained left ankle and 1st/2nd degree burns to both hands.
The aircraft burned completely and all either of you got out was your pack and the clothes on your back.

Here's the kicker; the pack can weight no more than 10 lbs and cannot be larger than 18.5 in. long and a total of 1,200 cu. in.
The backpack image is your guide; the one I used.
Plus, no more than 12 separate articles in the pack. A kit, such as a first aid kit qualifies as one article.
But is still part of the 10 lb. total weight and size restriction.
No electronic articles are allowed including mobile phones of any kind, GPS, laptops,etc.
The only exception is one (1) Mini Mag-lite flashlight. It must also be included in the size and weight restrictions.

What do you have and what do you do?

Care to give it a try?
Feel free to ask for clarifications.
Please post your selections and reasons for them...

The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline Lurker

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2010, 10:20:30 AM »
Not trying to be a wet blanket, however, I think placing onerous restrictions on a "What If Scenario," are an exercise in futility...

I'm a pilot. If I am flying over such terrain where survival could be a problem, in the event of an emergency. I am not going to limit myself to the size of the back pack, nor will I limit myself to what I will put into it. The space and weight being loaded into the aircraft, or the physical limits of my weight carrying ability, will be what limits the size and weight of the backpack.

Survival isn't a game... Survival is serious business. Therefore placing unreasonable restrictions on equipment turns all of this into a game of one upmanship, where everybody tries to out do the other person...

Time and thread space should be used to teach the unknowing, on how to perform to save themselves.

Bill

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2010, 10:32:54 AM »
Bill,

I understand if you don't care to contribute because you disagree, that's fine.
Nonetheless, I feel the basis of this scenario is relevant as it is what was presented to me during training I received in the past.
The objective is not to involve oneself in "one upmanship" as you put it. Not my intent. They purpose has far better implications.
Last word, if more agree with you than me, the thread will die...
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline jrnsuz

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2010, 05:30:33 PM »
Sounds like a good exercise to me. Rather than playing one upmanship, it forces you to determine what is actually vital and how to get more bang for your buck.

That said, I'll have to look at my light bag and see if it fits the stated criteria and, if not, what I can do to make it work.
" It's not the dope on the rifle, it's the dope behind it! " GySgt Harrison

Offline Hooker

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2010, 05:35:57 PM »
I'll play according to the given coordinates I am in Chase BC Canada I,m banged up and there is no Bar close by.
This could get rough  :o No wait oh yeah my pack has a first aid kit it looks like a 12 pack of Miller lite I'm saved woo hoo ;D

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2010, 05:45:42 PM »
Sounds like a good exercise to me. Rather than playing one upmanship, it forces you to determine what is actually vital and how to get more bang for your buck.

That said, I'll have to look at my light bag and see if it fits the stated criteria and, if not, what I can do to make it work.

jrnsuz, Correct! As for the bag, the exact size is not too important. It was to give us a reference all can both relate to. Plus, it does make you think in terms of what is a priority and why. Storage space while traveling is a finite quantity.
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2010, 05:50:00 PM »
I'll play according to the given coordinates I am in Chase BC Canada I,m banged up and there is no Bar close by.
This could get rough  :o No wait oh yeah my pack has a first aid kit it looks like a 12 pack of Miller lite I'm saved woo hoo ;D

Pat

Pat, great! give it a go...
Remember, a six pack is considered a "kit".
Just mind the weight and amount of space...
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline Hooker

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2010, 07:29:33 PM »
Seriously my pack has the following.
1- Gerber Strike Force
2- Fire piston
3- Ka Bar knife
4- 50' of para cord
5- 8x10 poly tarp
6- US military canteen with cup
7- Browning Buckmark pistol
8- box of 22lr
9- first aid kit
10- Small fishing kit
11-plastic jar of beef bouillon cubes
12-Tomahawk
 
Two forms of fire making? You bet fire is your most important piece of equipment.
The knife needs no explaining my sheath has a diamond stone on it also.
Para cord just like duct tape more uses than you can count.
Poly tarp shelter, signaling, and rain suit.
Canteen again needs no explaining.
Pistol and bullets for hunting and protection.
Make sure First aid kit has burn treatment. Mine is a modified kit with a space blanket, sewing thread and needles. Here a tip, Use a cork to stow your needles in. Use steel needles and magnetize them. Using the magnetized needle and piece of the cork floating in a plastic or glass container  you now have a compass.
Fishing kit if you catch something that's good if not it will take your mind of of your troubles for a while.
The beef bouillon turns even the nastiest grub and weed stew into a gourmet meal. Not really but it helps a bunch.
Tomahawk a saw would be better IMO but small saws aren't worth the trouble and my buck saw would not fit the pack restrictions.
Besides the hawk is easier to maintain under these conditions.

Ok the plane is burning so I'm going use that to start my campfire.  I am going to set up camp as close as I safely can to the crash site.
Get a shelter built asap and then tend my companions burns those are the my biggest worry. Next is getting a supply of drinkable water, then making both the crash site and camp as visible as possible. Wait on the rescue party.

Pat


 
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2010, 01:02:20 PM »
Pat,

Great  job! Not too hard, now is it? If this thread continues, the scenario will get increasingly more difficult. Plus we can move on to other scenarios; desert, jungle, etc. Just a head's up to those watching from the sideline. Stay tuned...

 Just a couple comments, if I may. First, all looks great; it probably fits within the weight and size restriction. The idea of these limits is not an "onerous restriction" as suggested by another, it is part of the scenario which could actually occur. As he suggested, one could have packed as much as the plane would hold BUT... it was burned in the plane and could not be saved. The safety of the passengers was paramount. In the original scenario, the explanation for the burned hands of the companion was that he tried to save the gear, but failed and was burned. I omitted many of these details due to the amount of material that may turn some away for being involved. Instead, I was open to questions to clarify, if needed. This is not merely a game, but a learning tool that should be engaging and enjoyable.

A few question... what clothing would you imagine yourself wearing? An important consideration for all when traveling. If something happened, do you have time to change? Did you even bring appropriate clothing? When explaining about the 1st aid kit, you mentioned needle and thread; excellent idea, but you said to use it as a compass. Why not have a real compass?

Also, you mentioned the space blanket. To me they are completely worthless in a survival situation. Yes, they are light and compact, but remember your companion's hands are burned and your shoulder is sprained. Try opening one of those things and wrapping it around you with one arm. Seriously, try it! Now add wind. You'll be so frustrated and waste energy (an important consideration) you'll gladly let the dumb thing blow away. As a signaling device they are not as god as one might think. Studies have shown that when laid flat, they take on the colors of the surrounding terrain and therefore, defeat the purpose of a signal. When opening one you've had for a while, check out the edges where folded; they're creased and will far apart. Plus, have you ever had one over your head, even in a mild wind? You couldn't hear a B-52 taking off next to you let alone hear a search plane.

Also, consider using a tomahawk or axe when you're injured. I'll have to give it a try but would you tell me why you made the choice you did? Me? I prefer a machete like the one shown; only 18" in length, but can be used to cut wood, as a weapon and an number of other cutting tasks.

If it were raining or windy, what would you use as a distress signal?

Two things I learned here; I think the idea of bouillon cubes is great! Small, light and would greatly help with those few creature comforts. Also, the metal canteen and cup combo. Perfect! They could be used to cook, eat from and can be used to store other small items (a kit!).
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline Hooker

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2010, 02:56:53 PM »
Doc I basically took my existing pack and culled out things to fit your instructions.
My pack has two compasses, but I figured my best plan was  to remain at the crash site so the compass left out.
A better idea would be to make such things part of a kit.  The space blanket is a good heat reflector using it behind a fire allows me to build a smaller fire closer to my shelter. With my injuries I don't want to spend a lot of time gathering or cutting wood. The tomahawk is part of my actual pack. A machete is a great tool but the tomahawk gives me every thing the machete will do plus a hammer and a long reach hook.
For signaling I'll have to rely on smoke and flames, then here again like the compass a small light should be part of a kit.
As for dress the only way you'll find me flying at that latitude at that time of year would be for hunting. So I would be dressed in jeans a long sleeve shirt either heavy cotton or a wool blend with a Under Armor cold gear base, lace up hunting boots with goretex  socks and a ball cap.
Not to bad I guess could do with out the cotton but I like to be comfortable when traveling .

Well it looks like I need to reorganize my pack into kits. That's good my pack has changed a lot over the years. ;D

Pat
 
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2010, 04:56:39 PM »
Hooker,

Stay at the crash site? Brilliant move. Moving targets are harder to hit... or locate.
The compass... an interesting question would be, what would you sacrifice of the 12 articles to have it if you did need it?
But as you said, it is unnecessary since you're staying put.
I would urge you to try out the space blanket and decide for yourself if it truly is what you expected. Try opening and putting it on with one arm/hand.

Let's discuss your choice of shelter. Again, put up a shelter half with one arm and no help. The best shelter one can have is the clothing on their back.
Obviously, why I asked about your choice. I have found that a thick (3 mil) garbage bag with a hole pre-cut to fit over your head, is excellent protection from the weather. It holds heat better because it is close. It obviously repels rain and if you get the orange ones used by the hwy. dept, they are more easily seen from the air. One reason why my camping gear is always in bright colors. Also, if clothed properly, you may not need to start a fire. Especially if you are injured. These bags are light and take up very little space and a good moisture barrier.

As for signaling... have you thought about a signaling mirror? Cheap, easy to use, light weight and quite effective. If its raining or foggy or for whatever reason you can't get a fire started, these come in handy. Yes, their effectiveness is diminished by less sunlight, but can still be effective. Many come with whistles that can alert rescuers to your location. The mirror can also help you assess wounds in hard to see areas; back/side of head, etc...

Next, clothing choices are important. Yours seems good, but in this scenario, I would change out a ball cap and replace with a wool watch cap. Also, cotton is not the best choice as it is hard to dry and does not hold body heat as well.

You did catch on to the "kit" idea. The main reason is that is reminds you to pre-plan and to organize. I use different color bags like the ones shown, to help me stay organized. When you are fatigued, injured, frantic and near shock, or otherwise overwhelmed, is not the time to dig around for what you need like grandma digging for her keys in that big tent-sized purse. Knowing the red one is for fire-starting supplies, for example, lessens your time performing useless tasks and therefore, reduces fatigue and confusion.

The last thing, why do you feel nobody else is responding here??



The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline Dee

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2010, 05:19:48 PM »
Well, I guess I'm a little light in the britches here, as I carry a larger variety of fanny pack. I have a compass, and magnifying glass inside my first aid kit along with the usual first aid stuff, and some book matches. Also have a Case sheath knife on the belt, some cordage, some leather boot laces wrapped around two solar blankets, a magnesium fire starter, a milk sample bottle full of vasolined cotton balls, a small LED flash light which uses 4 triple A batteries, a plastic bullet mold box, containing fishing line, split shot weights, and hooks ( the small variety), one railroad flare, and one very large heavy duty trash bag. I always carry a Model 60 Smith where ever I go, so it's not in the bag. Along with this, which probably weighs less than 4 pounds, I also carry at all times in my pocket, a Zippo lighter with extra flints inside, am accomplished at making fire with a bow drill, and like someone else here, I carry a Cold Steel Tomahawk, which I keep shaving sharp.
For me, that's it. I'm an old man that travels light.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2010, 05:58:58 PM »
Dee,
I forgot to mention on Pat's list as you have also mentioned; rope, cordage, twine. How d*#n important is that? Its got to be as useful in the field as duct tape to a lazy plumber!! I would sacrifice a number of other things before giving up rope.
My assessment of your other articles, sh*t can the space blankets.
The Vaseline and cotton balls, magnesium starter, trash bag, fishing "kit" and knife (why two?); excellent.
Fire bow and drill; show me a video of how you do that with a "moderately sprained right shoulder and wrist.
The tomahawk idea has me quite intrigued. I have to give it a try. I especially liked Pat's idea of using it as a hammer and reaching/climbing hook.
Why the magnifying glass? Reading map legends?
I don't have any idea but, do you think this all weighs less than 10 lbs? The Model 60 with 3" barrel is 24 oz., unloaded.
Also, remember, 12 items... I didn't add them up.
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline Dee

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2010, 06:12:09 PM »
Dee,
I forgot to mention on Pat's list as you have also mentioned; rope, cordage, twine. How d*#n important is that? Its got to be as useful in the field as duct tape to a lazy plumber!! I would sacrifice a number of other things before giving up rope.
My assessment of your other articles, sh*t can the space blankets.
The Vaseline and cotton balls, magnesium starter, trash bag, fishing "kit" and knife (why two?); excellent.
Fire bow and drill; show me a video of how you do that with a "moderately sprained right shoulder and wrist.
The tomahawk idea has me quite intrigued. I have to give it a try. I especially liked Pat's idea of using it as a hammer and reaching/climbing hook.
Why the magnifying glass? Reading map legends?
I don't have any idea but, do you think this all weighs less than 10 lbs? The Model 60 with 3" barrel is 24 oz., unloaded.
Also, remember, 12 items... I didn't add them up.


Is this some of that one upmanship you mentioned at the beginning. You asked everyone what they had in their pack and I told you. You don't have to agree. The Model 60 is not in the pack AS I MENTIONED. I carry it always, and neither is the Zippo. It is in my pocket now. The magnifying glass can be used for everything from splinters, to starting a fire with the sun. Even with a moderately sprained shoulder, or a broken one for that matter. Why would I sh*t can the space blankets? They weigh almost nothing, and can be used as "blankets", a light shelter from rain, and other things. I believe that's about 11 items unless you want to count fish hooks.
As far as the bow drill, I mentioned it, but YOU show me a video where it's impossible for a man with ONE sprained shoulder not being able to use a bow drill with his good side. Part of survival is enduring a little pain.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 06:39:18 PM »
One upmanship? No, just asking why you packed what you did in the context of the scenario. Please take the time to re-read it.
You actually carry a sidearm always? Seriously?
I don't think showing you the video of it not working is possible or necessary. Can't disprove a negative.
I'm convinced it is not the best solution. If you don't agree, fine. Bow and drill is your solution.
Same with starting a fire with a magnifying glass. Have you actually done this? How long did it take?
I have tried under the most optimal conditions and it consistently failed.
Why sh*t can the space blankets, read my replies to Pat and decide for yourself.
I did not count the items as they seemed disjointed, I just offered a reminder.
Another disagreement... To me survival is more about mitigating the pain and risk by being prepared with realistic solutions.
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline Dee

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2010, 06:52:57 PM »
I am going to reply to the magnifying glass in starting a fire by saying MANY MANY times as a kid did I use one to start a fire. It is a most basic way if available and works quickly on any sunny day. As to the sidearm, I believe I said I carried the sidearm always. Is that confusing to you? Seriously? Did you pick up any subliminal messages there? As far as the video, neither can you, as you assumption is just that. An assumption. It seems that if you don't agree with what I have, I must be wrong.
If you can't start a fire with a simple magnifying glass you can hardly judge my preparations as adequate or inadequate. I could do this magnifying glass fire trick as a child, and didn't need a training seminar to figure it out. I think I will just opt out of the discussion, as I see little to be gained here.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 10:01:43 PM »
Given Tom Brown has made it a point to go anywhere naked, and walked out fed, clothed and armed in some fashion, I (remember this is my opinion) think discussions like this are excellent ... really gets to the point of what YOU don't think you can live without. It should go without saying that the most important stuff is what you have in your head. So 12 in my pack might be ...

1- Ka Bar knife
2- Fire Steel
3- Stainless Steel Cup
4- First Aid Kit (mine is a Combat Life Saver variant)
5- 8x10 plastic drop cloth (5 mil)
6- Stainless Steel bottle
7- Poncho Liner
8- 100' paracord
9- S&W .357 (thought about a .22, but most things I'd shoot with a .22 can be "got" by other means. Some things require a larger caliber.)
10- Ammo (6 shot capsules, 50 .38 soupcans, 50 .357 magnums)
11- MilSurp Compass
12- Knoxx Gelatin (not so much sodium, high protein/fat).

Wearing? Some variation of utilities (i.e. long sleeved blouse, cargo trousers, capilene long sleeved shirt, tshirt, drawers, cargo belt, socks, boots, watch cap, neck gaiter, eyepro, contact gloves). I have a safety razor blade in my wallet at all times, and a boker folder in my pocket as well. I also have a steel shafted pen and a small notebook in a cargo pocket. In the scenario you described, a leatherman surge would be on my belt, and probably the sidearm as well holstered, and a bag of nuts in my cargo pocket.
held fast

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2010, 07:43:13 AM »
TM7, yep, meds plus quikclot, tourniquets, pressure bandages, suture kit, odds & ends. You can make do without some of it if you need to go smaller. But I figure I can go a couple days without food, and it only takes 90 seconds to bleed out.
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Offline Hooker

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2010, 08:24:43 AM »
Dee I also carry a magnifying glass it on my Swiss Army knife that goes every where with me in my pocket.
I didn't start to many fires with one when I was a kid but I did burn lots of red ants with one. ;D

Pat

" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2010, 10:45:11 AM »
Thanks, TeamNelson. I appreciate that you recognize this as a learning experience for all. Myself included. The scenario is very similar to the ones we were given as either simulated field situations or as this, a written exercise. I was surprised to see how much I learned from other in how to use the same gear, but in a different way or new gear in a variety of ways. Being flexible and able to adapt to the situation can be a critical element. The goal here is to learn and enjoy doing it. My intention is to persuade you to justify your opinions and choices.  That way, we all better understand each others reasoning.

Can you explain a bit more in depth about your Combat Life Saver first aid kit?
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Offline Casull

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2010, 01:35:21 PM »
Quote
Not trying to be a wet blanket, however, I think placing onerous restrictions on a "What If Scenario," are an exercise in futility...

Exactly.  Why, if we're packing this kit ourselves are we prohibited from having electronic devices?  Otherwise, I say a satellite phone and a candy bar for the wait.   ;D
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Hooker

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 01:57:46 PM »
Quote
Not trying to be a wet blanket, however, I think placing onerous restrictions on a "What If Scenario," are an exercise in futility...

Exactly.  Why, if we're packing this kit ourselves are we prohibited from having electronic devices?  Otherwise, I say a satellite phone and a candy bar for the wait.   ;D

Do you carry a sat phone and a candy bar in your pack? ;D
This a sounding board for fine tuning  equipment and a chance to draw from the experiences of other.
How could that be futile?

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline Casull

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2010, 02:11:33 PM »
Quote
Do you carry a sat phone and a candy bar in your pack?
This a sounding board for fine tuning  equipment and a chance to draw from the experiences of other.
How could that be futile?

Pat

A sounding board?  No, more like a contrived game.  Why no electronics?  Why no candy bar?  When I hunt, I usually do carry a granola bar or pack of crackers for midday.  No, this is so everyone can talk about flint and steel, or making bowdrills, etc., etc.  What about a couple of disposable lighters?  They weigh less, require less effort and work faster.  If I'm going to pack a kit for survival, I'm going to pack what is best and easiest (which might include a satellite phone if I'm going to be many miles from civilization). 
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2010, 02:13:25 PM »
Casull,

If its an exercise in futility to you, why not leave us to it and you can go elsewhere to post your thoughts?

To answer your questions, maybe start at the beginning of the thread...
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline Casull

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2010, 02:28:18 PM »
Quote
To answer your questions, maybe start at the beginning of the thread...

I did start at the beginning.  As far as answers to my questions . . . I guess your answer is still "because".   ::)
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2010, 02:34:03 PM »
Casull,

For you, I'll explain the implications further.
The plane crashed.
The only article they could get out was one bag.
All the other stuff like satellite phones, etc. burned.
They were left with only the bag...
Did that help?
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline Casull

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2010, 02:44:12 PM »
Quote
Casull,

For you, I'll explain the implications further.
The plane crashed.
The only article they could get out was one bag.
All the other stuff like satellite phones, etc. burned.
They were left with only the bag...
Did that help?

Oh, I see.  They were able to pack a 10 pound bag with a first aid kit, flint and steel, road flares, space blankets, signal mirrors, etc., etc., etc., but were unable to pack any electronics in it.  Yep, you're right.  That's not contrived.   ::)
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline TX Devil Doc

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2010, 04:47:55 PM »
Let's move things along by considering this lesson on fire starting from a true expert, Peter Kummerfeldt, a USAF Academy Survival/SERE Trainer.
A bit lengthy, but quite informative. I suggest, if you agree with his opinions, to cut and paste it into a document for later reference. I can expand on areas he refers to if requested.

Fire Starting ...

Knowing how to build a fire is one of the most important survival skills you can learn. In many cases a well-built fire has meant life itself to those who relied upon it for warmth, light, and its many other uses.

Your fire making and firecraft abilities are a measure of your wilderness survival savvy. Successfully building a fire in adverse conditions when wood is wet or during inclement weather is not always easy. Only with experience and practice can you master the art of fire making to the point of confidence in nearly any situation.

Although there are many types of fuel used for fires, in this Survival Topic we will cover building fires with wood as the primary combustible material available to those who venture into the outdoors. By using the fire building tips presented here, knowing something about what fire really is (it is more than just a flame), and a little practice your fire making skills will quickly improve.

What Causes Fire?
Before you start making fires it will help to know how fire burns. Even many experienced fire builders have never really thought much about what causes fire to exist. Knowing the physics of fire can make anyone a better fire builder. This will give you an edge when building a fire is difficult due to wet conditions or lack of ideal fire making materials.

The Fire Tetrahedron
If you read the Survival Topic on the Fire Tetrahedron you know that making a fire and keeping the flame burning requires four basic components that must be present together at the same time. Take any one of these away and the fire will not start or, if already burning, will not continue. These are:

   1. Fuel including wood, gasoline, coal, dried animal dung, alcohol, or other combustible material.
   2. Heat, for example that initially provided by a match or rubbing two sticks together.
   3. Oxygen from the surrounding air that is consumed during the burning process.
   4. Sustained chemical reaction (burning) that produces more heat and keeps the burn cycle going.

Interrupting any of the above four elements will extinguish the fire or keep the fire from starting in the first place.

Four Steps to Fire Building
In general once you have gathered the proper fire making materials, building a fire is a four step process that starts with the smallest sized fuel and works toward the largest. These are the ignition source, tinder, kindling, and fuel:

   1. The ignition source can be anything that gives a hot enough flame or spark to ignite the tinder.
          * Possible ignition sources include matches, lighters, FireSteel, fire pistons, batteries and steel wool, or even rubbing two sticks together if you have a high level of fire making skill.
          * Being able to make a fire is so important that Survival Topics recommends you carry at least 3 different ignition sources in your survival kit. For example: waterproof matches, lighter, and magnesium fire starter. Should one or two methods fail for whatever reason, the third could save the day – and your life.
   2. The role of tinder in fire making is to catch the initial spark or flame as you apply it from the ignition source, and then transfer this flame to the kindling. If the kindling is damp or wet, the tinder needs to burn long enough to dry the kindling and catch it on fire.
          * The drier the tinder the more easily it catches fire.
          * Some examples of tinder include tree bark such as that from paper birch, dead dry plants and grasses, wax, lint, char cloth, wood shavings, paper, pine pitch and dry needles from coniferous trees.
          * You can make your own tinder by following the instructions for making fire starters given by the Survival Topics How to Make Fire Sticks and How to Make Petroleum Jelly Fire Starters. These fire starter aids will burn very hot for many minutes, causing even wet kindling to become dry enough to catch on fire.
   3. Kindling is added to burning tinder so that it in turn catches fire. The large surface to volume ratio of kindling makes it readily combust (or “kindle”) when in contact with the hot tinder or, if wet, easily dry so that it readily burns. The burning kindling produces a very hot flame that is transferred to the main fuel of large size.
          * If kindling is very small and very dry, no tinder may be necessary as it may catch fire very easily from direct contact with the ignition source.
          * The best kindling will easily catch fire and burn very hot.
          * Some excellent sources of tinder include small dry twigs and wood pieces, and cardboard.
          * You can make kindling from larger pieces of wood by cutting them down in size or by making a fuzz stick.
   4. Fuel wood is the larger combustible that catches on fire when in contact with the burning kindling.
          * Fuel burns more slowly and steadily than the kindling, producing greater heat and a bed of hot glowing coals that continue to radiate heat and light for an extended period of time.
          * Once the fire is burning well, simply add more fuel whenever needed to keep the fire going.
          * Sources of fuel include dry wood, twisted dry grasses, peat, animal dung, and coal.
          * Green or wet fuel is often burnable once a fire is going well. The fires heat will be enough to dry and ignite the wet wood as it dries. Often green wood will burn more slowly and give a greater amount of hot coals, which can be to your advantage when you want a fire to burn for a long time unattended such as when you are sleeping.

Matches and Firesticks

In the photo you can see I have gathered firewood of different sizes that range from large logs (fuel) down to fine branches (kindling). Each size has its place in the building and maintenance of a campfire.

For tinder I have found some strips of birch bark that catch fire very easily and burn very hot (DO NOT strip bark off from living trees. You can nearly always find birch bark laying on the ground, stripped by wind and natural causes). If birch does not grow in your area you can usually find alternative barks, grasses, or even certain types of fungi that make excellent tinder for starting fires. Also shown are commercial firestarter sticks, and a special homemade firestarter you can make yourself in a simple process using recycled cardboard and wax.

Match Tinder Kindling
You should consider including a fire starting aid in your survival kit. For example, the homemade firestarter will burn for nearly ten minutes; enough time to dry even wet kindling enough to catch a flame. Having the ability to make a fire with wet wood could very well safe your life in a cold weather emergency or at the very least ensure you will have a comfortable campfire for the night.

Where to Build a Fire; Making the fire in a good location is very important for efficiency and safety.

Fire Safety
Fire Safety is of prime concern since fire has the habit of escaping the bounds you select for it. The last thing you want to do is start a wildfire, which could threaten your survival and cause considerable damage which you may be liable for.

Log Cabin Fire
Before you build a fire, clear an area of all combustible materials at least four feet all around its location. Consider the possibility of sparks and wind spreading the flames beyond the fireplace and locate your fire so that the chances of this happening are minimized.

To help contain the fire you can build up a ring of rocks around its location or dig a fire pit several inches deep into the ground.

Convenient Fuel Supply for a Fire
Gathering firewood can be a very time consuming and labor intensive process. Try to build a fire where there is plenty of dry fuel that is easily accessible. Fire is a hungry beast; you may find you need 3, 5, or even times as much firewood as you initially thought. If you are planning to spend the night, estimate the amount of fuel you will need – and then triple it.

While traveling, make note of your surroundings with an eye for good places to encamp that have plenty of easily available fuel and water. Areas where there are downed trees and driftwood concentrations are examples of good places to build a fire due to the ease of obtaining dry firewood.
Sheltered From the Elements

High winds can cause a fire to flare up as increased oxygen is forced into it. Wind can also carry sparks from a campfire quite a distance, potentially igniting combustible materials and sparking a wildfire.

You will also need to consider the weather, since heavy rain could extinguish a fire or wet its fuel supply. You may have to build the fire in a sheltered location during inclement weather.

In the pictures you can see that I built my fire in deep snow. To do this I built a raft of logs onto which the fire was initially built. This will allow the fire to become established before it sinks into the snow. A larger fire will have less chance of extinguishing itself as it melts the snow around it.

The Firewood
The wood you choose to start a fire and keep the fire burning is very important. Usually you cannot simply hold a match to a large piece of firewood and expect it to burst into flame. This is especially true of the firewood you are likely to find outdoors, where natural processes tend to keep it damp to a greater or lesser degree.

Species of firewood are generally placed into two main categories; hardwoods and softwoods. Although the characteristics of these two categories overlap somewhat, in general they follow that discussed below.

Burning Softwoods
Softwoods or conifers also known as “evergreens” and have needles as leaves. This type of wood does not shed its needles in the fall, though there are exceptions like tamarack. Softwoods tend to burn quickly and very hot, but burn down to fewer coals. They often contain very flammable resins that are a great aid in starting fires.

Because they burn hot and are often easier to ignite than hardwoods, softwoods are often used for kindling. In some areas of the world, such as areas in the western United States, forests are sometimes mostly of softwood species and so are widely used as a major fuel wood.

Burning Hardwoods
Hardwoods have broad flat leaves and in northern climates shed their leaves in the fall in order to conserve water. Hardwoods typically do not burn as readily as softwoods but once set afire burn steadily and longer, giving a more even heat and more heat in total for a given volume of wood. In addition hardwoods burn down to a good bed of coals that will stay hot for a long period of time.

For these reasons hardwoods are the wood of choice as the main fuel for fires. Species of hardwood vary considerably in the amount of heat given while burning. In eastern forests maple, birch, beech, and oak are excellent firewoods while aspen less so.
Building a Fire
There are a number of methods used to build a fire. The general principle used is

   1. Place the tinder (paper, birch bark, cardboard, firestarter, etc) in a pile of kindling. The kindling needs to be loosely spaced so that plenty of oxygen can circulate, yet set close enough so that the individual sticks share heat from the flame in order to combust.
   2. Light the tinder so that the flame rises up through the tinder. As the tinder catches fire add the kindling with enough spaces between to allow the easy flow of air and flames.
   3. As the fire grows in strength add larger pieces of firewood until the fire is the size you want.

The correct spacing of wood for a campfire is something that comes with experience. You want to allow enough air to circulate through the firewood while at the same time help the pieces of wood share the flame and keep each other ignited.

If the wood is too closely spaced there will not be enough oxygen to burn; too far apart and the heat generated by burning pieces will not be enough to ignite adjacent pieces. In a typical campfire spacing the pieces of wood one-quarter to one inch is about right though that will vary according to type of wood and size of the blaze. Only experimentation and experience will determine the optimum spacing of the firewood.

Types of Fire Making
There are a number of methods used for placing wood while making and feeding a fire. These are designed to take the fullest advantage of how fire burns, especially by increasing the amount of oxygen that reaches the flames.

Log Cabin Method
I find the easiest and one of the best ways to make a fire is to simply lay the sticks on top of one another in a log cabin fashion once the kindling is burning well.

In the photos you can see how I layered the firewood on top of the already burning kindling. I lined up a half dozen pieces in one direction over which I placed another row aligned perpendicularly to the last.

Adding firewood to the fire in this way creates plenty of space between the sticks for the circulation of oxygen. This causes the fire to burn hotter. In addition, as the pile grows a chimney effect is created so that air is sucked in through the bottom of the pile and exits through the top as a strong flame.

The Tepee Fire
Another method of building a fire structure is the tepee. Build a tepee structure with the tinder and kindling inside. This creates a chimney structure that when lit will suck air from the bottom and draw it up through the top. As the wood burns it will fall inward and feed the fire.

The X-Ditch Fire
Dig an X-shaped trench into the soil a few inches deep. Build your fire at the intersection of the “X”. Air will freely flow through the ditch and up into the fire, causing it to burn hotter and faster.

Dakota Fire Hole
If you need to conceal a fire you can make a Dakota Fire Hole. This method of making a fire will help limit the amount of smoke the fire makes and hide its bright flames underground.

To make a Dakota Fire Hole dig a trench a few feet deep at the base of a small hill. Cover the top of the trench with a layer of earth and dig down on one end so that there is a chimney formed. Build your file inside the trench by shoving fuelwood into the opening.

Dealing with Large Firewood
For long lasting fires you will need to burn large firewood pieces. These will burn slowly and give sustained heat, light, and hot coals for roasting and cooking.

Rather than expend the time and effort required to cut large logs into length, it is often easier to simply place them in the fire and allow the fire to burn through them.

How Big Should a Fire Be?
Many people make the mistake of making a very large fire when a smaller blaze will do. Besides the potential dangers in making large fires, the gathering of firewood takes time and energy, both of which should be conserved during a survival situation. Even if your fire is only recreational, there is no good reason to waste resources by burning inordinate amounts of wood.

Practice Building Fires
The ability to make a fire, even in wet adverse conditions, can only be learned through practice. Building fires in a backyard fireplace, wood stove, or campsite gives you valuable experience that will prove useful during an emergency survival situation.
The secrets to life? It’s faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money! 

Offline RON17T

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2010, 06:28:33 PM »
Here's what I got:
1 leatherman tool
2 first aid kit
3 8x10 tarp
4 50 foot cord
5 shake type flashlight
6 fire starting kit
7 food kit
8 machete
9 40 cal S&W handgun
10 paperback book
11 compass

I'll go over my kits:
first aid kit-normal first aid stuff+ magnifying glass,needle and thread,space blanket,rubbing alcohol,pain meds,ace bandage,immodium pills,ball point pen and small pad of paper.
fire starting kit-waterproof matches,lighter,cotton balls with vaseline,fire steel
food kit-packed in aluminum wide mouth bottle,bullion cubes,2 granola bars,salt and pepper,fishing line and hooks,water purification tabs,powdered drink mix.
I know two items that will be in question are the shake flashlight and the book.I know they're not really bright but a shake light will never go dead.The book gives you something to do to pass the time and keeps your sanity,and you can always use the pages for bandaging material or fire starter. I went with a Leatherman because it will come in more useful than a large hunting knife. I didn't add it as an item but everything in my pack is wrapped in a large trash bag. Keeps everything dry and doubles as a poncho.

Offline schoolmaster

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Re: Survival Scenario... What would you do?
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2010, 09:22:08 PM »
I don't know jack about flying. I thought you have to have a flight plan and some one has to be apprised of it. At the least, before taking off you would/should tell some one who cares what you are doing and when you are coming back. So there should be a good chance that some one would start the ball rolling for search and rescue. So how long would you have to survive at the scene of the wreck? Late Autumn would put you into hunting season maybe? Fishing season maybe? so you may not be as isolated and cut off from contact as it would seem at first blush. Certainly first aid for the injuries would be needed. Shelter from the weather. Fire for the cold and signaling and mental well being. Water shouldn't be a problem but certainly  would be needed and should be purified. The first aid kit should have some gauze pads and rolls, betadine ointment, ace bandages, tape, tylenol, etc to treat the injuries you describe. A fair sized bright colored plactic tarp could be fastened to the hulk of the plane to keep off the damp. It would work as a signal also. Some rope or heavy cord to tie it on with. For fire some matches in a water proof case, a candle, a can of sterno equals a fire starting kit. Some tablets to purify the water, a cup,can, container to carry water in. Maybe one of those drinking straw filter things. For signaling besides the fire and tarp a whistle and a mirror. I would have to have my 4 inch stockmans knife to cut the string and cord and to whittle with.