Case cleaning concept.

[Veral]

  In speaking with a customer yesterday, (a grand dad who has shot competition all his life, no less) he told me his method of cleaning brass, and stunned me when he said that in all those years he had never had one case neck split, nor a head seperation! ---  I rarely clean my brass and have had MANY of both, with neck splits being the main cause to discard brass!   ---   So I'm going to tell you his method, and the part which he believes to be the brass saver.

  When he gets home from the range he boils his brass in water with a bit of Dawn dish soap.  He said this cleans the primer pockets spotless, so he has to be removing the spent primers first.  Then he tumbles the brass, and proceeds with the reloading.  I didn't think to ask him if he full length sizes before tumbling, nor asked for any details except those he offered on his own.

  His opinion is that the boiling, which he said his dad taught him to do, 'anneals the brass' slightly.  I think his thinking has to be correct, except annealing means to draw to the softest state, which boiling doesn't do.  It must be just drawing out a bit of hardness, or stress relieving, which are proper heat treatment terms for what appears to be happening.

  I'm passing it on, because I believe him 100%, and not because I've tried it, but I will, trust me.  With the drying up of components, anything to make brass last is worth doing, and this is so simple, inexpensive and such an effective cleaner.

  I learned from a well driller here, who uses a bit of Dawn dish soap to break up water tension when drilling, that it has the strongest water tension breaking power of all the soaps he has tried.  --  I've also heard from two widely seperate sources that if one gives his dog a bath using dawn dish soap it will kill all fleas ticks etc etc.  Doesn't have a thing to do with case cleaning but maybe your flea bitten  bird dog would like you to know!

  The door is open for any feed back, or better ideas  on this subject fellas!

  I will openly confess my ignorance on case cleaning.  I bought a tumbler some 30 years ago, and tried it once with corn cob media, which just stuck in the lube residue and didn't shine the brass evenly.  So I never tried it again, but just wipe of any dirt and scrape out the primer pockets if I can see a buildup that would interfer with primer seating.  I've also never been to a shooting range, and probably never will go to one, so don't have a 'need' for shiny reloads to avoid snide comments!      Yet, had I heard this mans success story I would have been at least boiling all my brass.  Tumbling, I can't get excited about if I have to listen to the rattle, and if it isn't monitored things tend to go backward after a period of time.  (I've used the tumbler extensively for cleaning rust from machined parts and deburring!)

[saddlebum]

I have never had good results using corn cob media,(only), in a tumbler. If I mix in some walnut hulls with it it works much better. Cob is good for polishing but not for cleaning. The walnut scratches the grime off and the cob polishes at the same time. I use the Lyman brand most of the time unless I can find coarse ground hulls in bulk. If the media is not the coarse ground type cob and hulls, it doesn't work worth a darn. I also stay away from the media that has the "jewelers rouge" type abrasive in it. It's usually red in color. That stuff scratches sizing dies up pretty bad which in turn scratches up your brass and makes it hard to run through the die. Even carbide straight wall dies. I ruined a .41mag sizing die that way. I have used a couple of liquid polish additives to the media to get really shiny brass. The ones I tried worked good. Midway was one. But stay away from stuff with ammonia in it. Ammonia cleans good but is not good for brass. It weakens the the brass buy chemical reaction. As a matter of fact I have used it, straight, to loosen heavy copper fouling in barrels before. Thats why some bore cleaners have ammonia in them. I plug the barrel and fill it up and let it soak instead of trying to scratch it out with a brush.

I have heard of washing brass before,(mostly with blackpowder), but never tried it. I may have to try this boiling method. Since I worry about scratching up my dies, I think I will try it without decapping first. Skip a step. I, like Veral, usually only clean primer pockets when they get some buildup in them. I'm thinking that boiling in water might clean the pockets anyway with the primers in place. And maybe I could do less tumbling, if at all. We'll see. It makes sense that the boiling of the brass might be taking some of the "brittleness" out of it. Especially if we let them air cool slowly. If my thinking is right it would make the brass more malleable. (trying to impress Veral with some metallurgical terms...... makes my head hurt)   

[gypsyman]

I've been using a 50/50 mix of corn and walnut media in my tumbler for the last 3 years or so. Seems to do a pretty good job, as the walnut is harder, and cleans better, but I get the polish of the corn, that puts a better shine on the brass.
Veral, boiling the brass might just help. After all, cold blueing works better if you slightly warm the metal, and finishing a stock with True Oil, looks much better if you rub the wood to heat it up. I've cleaned brass by washing it with hot water and dish soap, then spread it out to dry before tumbling it. Wonder if putting it in an oven at 350 or 400 degree's for 15 minute's or so would help? Think I'll try that! gypsyman

[Veral]

  My excitement over the boiling process is because of the extreme case life my customer told me about.  In pondering this a few days I'm wondering if perhaps Dawn soap has some chemical which penetrates the brass causing and increase in ductility, not just a decrease in hardness, as the customers believed might possibly be what made it so effective.

   Rub brass with mercury and it will shatter when you drop it on the floor, or put amonia on it and you have an unfixable mess, because both things penetrate the brass.

  So, experiment your heart out, but as I see it, the results can't be proven until the brass has been reloaded MANY times, which would take years.  It was a senior who told me and he said he shot 500 rounds a day with his 45 when in competition, but never had a case mouth split in years of use!!!!      At my age I don't believe I'll live long enough to find anything better than what he is claiming!

  Keep that fact in mind when you make any posts on this subject.  It isn't just about cleaning, though that's the primary intent.  It's about the long case life.          I used to keep track of how many reloads I could get from a set of new brass when I was doing all the experimenting and designing on the LBT molds.  for Revolver, I would use a set of 6 brass only, and reload till the case mouths started to split.  If the loads were stout, and most were, 10 shots was good, and 15 exceptional.  This was the best method to test for max velocity potential, as it used up the least brass.  I loaded six, stepped to the shop door and popped them, then reloaded again while the cases were still warm, so I learned the length of case life as quickly as several sets of brass a day!

[Three44s]

I would be very cautious about heating cases in an oven at other than low temps to dry them.  The thing you don't want to do is overly soften the case head (web area) and in an oven, you'll heat the whole casing.

It's interesting that boiling water temp could in fact lead to softer brass but the concept that a concoction such as Dawn dish washing soap could further condition brass in a positive manner ...... that would really add to our hobby.

Water boils at a very predicable temperature, one would assume it's low enough to not soften case heads excessively ......... and Dawn dish soap is plentiful and relatively inexpensive.

A neighbor sent me the link to this thread ....... I'll be sure and thank him ..... very interesting!!


Three 44s

[Screwbolts]

Hi Veral,

Thanks for the tip on the possibilities of cleaning brass and extending its life, I will soon give it a try on some dirty 50bmg brass. I wiil try anything to extend it's life.

Ken

[antique]

Hi Veral.   I kind of do this.  I size and deprime, and wash the brass in hot water and dish soap  in a plastic bowl like delrin. Then rinse till all soap residue is gone , no bubbles.  Drain as much water as you can, then dry with a hair dryer, brass will get to hot to touch.  Always worked for me.. May not be for everyone. I do not reload hot.   Good luck  Antique

[Ken Rummer]

I use the water-soluble case lube from RCBS for sizing.  To remove the lube, I wash the cases like antique described and then bake dry in a 250 F oven for 15-20 minutes.

I have never noticed a change in the properties of the brass but now, due to this post, am I missing something?

[JRiddle]

I've been using these methods for years, never thought much about extending case life, it's just an excellent way to clean the brass.  I have a large stash of once fired, the first thing I do is decap it with the Lee universal, and then anneal the neck/shoulder with a propane torch.  Then in the tumbler for a while.  Then I do a inspection/full length sizing with rcbs case lube, then into the pot.  A little bit of dawn then bring to a slow boil, giving them a stir every couple of minutes.  Pour out through a strainer, and let cool just enough so they wont burn you, then onto a baking sheet, and into the oven at 250 for half hour.  I even use the convection setting on the oven as it circulates the air and seems to get rid of any trapped moisture in bottlenecked cases.  Let them cool for a bit, then back to the shop to trim,chamfer,debur, and load.

I make specific ammo for each specific gun, I have 5 .223s, and when I load I label the boxes 'cz527 only', 'contender only' etc.  After firing in that particular gun it's neck size only.  I deprime/necksize/inspect.  Trim,chamfer,debur.  These rarely need the tumbler so it's straight to the pot/oven treatment.  The only reason I clean the full length sized brass before I trim, versus the neck sized brass that I clean after I trim, is to get the sizing lube off making them easier to handle.  I've got some .223s that are on their 16th loading, and some .308s that are on their 14th...I've never had a case-head separation(knock on wood)  and though I have had a few split necks, it's very rare and I can't even remember the last time it happened.  I usually shoot 2-300 rounds of .223 a week, this is all in either bolt action rifles, or a contender.  And at least 100 out of my .308s every week.  In addition to 222, 22-250, 303brit, 7.62x54R, 8mm, 7-30waters,and 35 whelen, plus all my straight wall calibers.  I use the same treatment on all my brass,it may be a bit tedious and time consuming, but hey,,,I'm in no rush.
JR
edited to add that I also reanneal every 3 firings