Author Topic: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!  (Read 6551 times)

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Offline Casull

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #120 on: August 20, 2010, 09:45:26 AM »
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REALLY?  Never heard of the Crusades huh??? 

Heather

I think he was referring to the last couple centurys.  Now, if we want to go back 1,000 years or so, that is another matter (and another people).
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Offline Casull

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2010, 09:48:46 AM »
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Thing is this whole mosque story is froth and much to do about nothing; and basically the business of NYC and nobody else's.

Well, New Yorker's don't want it.  And, it was an attack on AMERICA, not just NY.  Therefore it is all our business.  Well, except the conspiracy wacko's that think Bush did it.   ::)
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Offline lakota

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2010, 10:46:02 AM »
I am still waiting for someone to enlighten me as to why it is only the muslims who are entitled to understanding on this matter and NOT the 9/11 families the NYPD FDNY and NYC EMS and the VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.


Let me rephrase my question using a subject the left might understand better..."feelings"
Why is it alright for the majority's feelings to be hurt but it would be a mortal crime for the muslims' feelings to be hurt?
Anyone?

Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline ironglow

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #123 on: August 20, 2010, 11:19:12 AM »
You keep confusing Christianity and religion.  All wars are religious wars they cannot be Christian wars because there's no such thing.  They can be Denominational or Muslim wars.
I think I know where you're coming from, but a devout Muslim could say the same. If you 're gonna say that wars where most all the combatants are 'Christians'  isn't a Christian war, but then call wars with Muslim combatants a Muslim war... that isn't quite honest, IMHO, but I can understand the appeal.

Christians aren't that much diff than regular folk; they are regular folk, just as most Muslims are.

Then there are those who take the words of Jesus seriously, rather than using him as a political guage/loyalty test... but that would be another topic.

   If it were Christians deliberately blowing up schools, embassies, police stations, Navy ships, hospitals, peace keepers barracks, and  the largest commercial buildings in the world plus thousands of innocent men, women and children...all the while shouting "praise Jesus" ..instead of "allah akbar"; then one might claim that.."Christians did the filthy, dirty deed and started the war..so that makes it a  Christian war..simply because they started it..and they own it"
  But now let's look at reality..  Who has been suicide-bombing innocent people by the thousands, and what did they shout while doing so ?

  BTW: from what I've seen an the military people I know, Christians fill a disporportionate  portion of our combat ranks. They didn't start it, but they aren't afraid of it either.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline powderman

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2010, 11:38:21 AM »
YES, Christians fought in the crusades, doing the same thing the entire world is doing today. Stopping the same cancer that is infecting the entire world. Muslim world domination and subjugation is what it was about then, and today. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #125 on: August 20, 2010, 11:56:41 AM »
YES, Christians fought in the crusades, doing the same thing the entire world is doing today. Stopping the same cancer that is infecting the entire world. Muslim world domination and subjugation is what it was about then, and today. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D

Ever notice that the people who scream What about the Crusades!? never consider that in the time leading up to the Crusades, and during them, and after them, the followers of Mohammed (or however it is spelled, there are several versions) were and are oppressing those who are not, killing outright those who were not 'People of the Book'  and did not instantly convert to Islam. As well as then,and now, killing Christians who dared to try to raise their children as Christians. Or Jews and Christians who tried to repair a synagogue or church, or who objected to being mulct to be allowed to live.   But,yeah, those eeeee...vvviilll crusaders were the only ones who committed attrocities. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #126 on: August 20, 2010, 12:37:35 PM »
Well put Joe most who bring up the crusades as an example of Christian aggression probably do not know the history of the crusades. I happen to have done quite a bit of study on them and of the Knights Templar.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline powderman

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #127 on: August 20, 2010, 01:11:46 PM »
SUBJOE. Good post Sir. I'm glad most of us see things the right way instead of backwards like some here. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline ironglow

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #128 on: August 20, 2010, 01:24:04 PM »
Seems the governor of NY has asked the builders to build it somewhere else and they ain't having none of that, not budging.  ???  Tells me what I need to know about their motives!
Everyone has their price. They may want a better offer. This whole thing is probably just about leverage. Believe me, it is not hard to find another empty building.

Yea that's my point!  Seems if it wasn't an in "your face" move they would see the pain, anguish  and controversy it is causing and find another empty building somewhere else


One fly in the ointment, however. We now hear that the governor is trying to lure them away from ground zero by offering them some "state land"...which may get a bit sticky.
    Can you imagine the gov offering state land to Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson or John Hagee at a fair market price, say nothing about some kind of discount!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline powderman

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #129 on: August 20, 2010, 04:03:37 PM »
Quote
Can you imagine the gov offering state land to Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson or John Hagee at a fair market price, say nothing about some kind of discount!



HEH, now that was funny. Won't be any offers like that for Christians. Man, the A nti  C hristian  L iars  U nion would go ballistic. POWDERMAN.  :D :D :D :D :D :D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #130 on: August 20, 2010, 07:22:03 PM »
Went to a family event today. My cuz (cop and son of a cop) was definitely of the opinion that the "mosque" was funded by terrorists. When asked how he got this info he just said with certainty that "they know". Never found out who they were as my wife was giving me the evil eye. Then a bit later, his great aunt said that she was in the Hitler Youth and shook Hitler's hand when she was a kid. Gotta say that one just made everyone pause.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #131 on: August 21, 2010, 03:07:17 PM »
Well put Joe most who bring up the crusades as an example of Christian aggression probably do not know the history of the crusades. I happen to have done quite a bit of study on them and of the Knights Templar.
 

     Here's a bit of history; not "preaching"  just history!
  Jews were in Jerusalem and environs, about 1500 years, when the Christians began the church in the same area. the Christian church grew exponentially after Jesus was crucified there in Jerusalem, where the first church was established. Then in 70AD, the Roman Army forcibly drove both Jews and Christians out and destroyed the temple, the whole city and surrounding towns.  Soon "squatters" moved in and took up residence.
  All these events took place hundreds of years before Muhammad hatched up Islam! (620 AD).
  Then, The Muslims invaded from Medina (Saudi Arabia), taking over the area and forcing the rsidents to become "believers" (or die).
       Later on, the crusades were launched..to regain the Holy Land. Many mistakes were made as far as logistics etc, but that was bound to happen when a pope calls the shots.     The  Crusaders obviously just believed they were reclaiming what was rightfully theirs..and was theirs before Islam was even a gleam in the various  "moon worshippers" inventive minds.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #132 on: August 22, 2010, 01:07:36 PM »
TM;
  I don't deny that the crusades were unsavory in many ways and I don'ty particularly trust a great deal of what comes out of the Vatican, but that is just my opinion. After all much of the same things were done to my spiritual progenitors by order of the Vatican. Yes, in some cases the crusaders behaved no better than the muslims during that conflict..and the "children's crusade" was child abuse.  However, i did not do my last post to proclaim innocence for the crusaders..I figured many of the crusaders to simply be more westerly imitations of the Muslim hordes they fought against!
  That post was to establish the land deed held by the Jews and the first Christians, who by historical event were born ethnic Jews.  

  The Muslims got bold and invaded Europe (payback, I guess) and didn't do too badly until they met Charles Martel at Tours ..and he kicked their butts on home. (AD 732)

  If as you say, the Spanish now want to share the Cordoba cathedral with Muslims, it just goes to show that some of today's Spaniards didn't learn by their experiences of the 11th century, when El cid was obliged to kick their butts...  In fact, they must not have learned with the recent train bombings in Spain..perpetrated by Muslims.
  I wonder if some of the Spanish want a reputation for their weapons like the French have.."never fired, and only thrown into the sand once". Notice; I said "some Spanish"..because as here, some want to surrender to every demand the Muslims make.
  
    As far as any Christian believing it was the Jews who crucified Christ..that person should go back to primary Sunday School and stert over...and get their doctrine right.

  
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #133 on: August 22, 2010, 02:25:47 PM »
(subjoe...I think you should review or look again at who islamics consider "People of the Book" and their regard for the People of the Book)



OK, they got to pay extortionate protection money for the privilege of not converting to mohammedism.  They were, and are, subject to death for teaching their children about Christianity or Judeaism.  Under islamic law they may not improve or repair their houses of worship.  

Also, no matter what else, they are still classed as unbelievers, and in the koran you find passage after passage after passage that command that all unbelievers be killed.  

Quote
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54


Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
 

Just a couple that I happened to have saved.  There are others that command things like striking off their hands and feet, laying in wait and striking for their necks, crucifying them.  Yeah, I know a lot about how mohammed told his followers to treat Christians and Jews.  

By the way, I also have accounts directly from Christians who have come to the US from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria about how they were treated in those lands.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #134 on: August 22, 2010, 06:46:58 PM »
(subjoe...I think you should review or look again at who islamics consider "People of the Book" and their regard for the People of the Book)



OK, they got to pay extortionate protection money for the privilege of not converting to mohammedism.  They were, and are, subject to death for teaching their children about Christianity or Judeaism.  Under islamic law they may not improve or repair their houses of worship.  

Also, no matter what else, they are still classed as unbelievers, and in the koran you find passage after passage after passage that command that all unbelievers be killed.  

Quote
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54


Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
 

Just a couple that I happened to have saved.  There are others that command things like striking off their hands and feet, laying in wait and striking for their necks, crucifying them.  Yeah, I know a lot about how mohammed told his followers to treat Christians and Jews.  

By the way, I also have accounts directly from Christians who have come to the US from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria about how they were treated in those lands.
Talmud.

When a Jew murders Gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from Gentile he may keep (Sanhedrin 57a)

All Gentile children are animals (Yebamoth 98a)

If Jew is tempted to do evil, he should go to a city where he is not known and do evil (Moed Kattan 17a)

If Gentile hits Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is same as hitting God (Sanhedrin 58b)

Jews may use lies to circumvent a Gentile (Baba Kamma 113a)

Jew need not pay a Gentile any wages (Sanhedrin 57a)

Offline mrussel

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #135 on: August 22, 2010, 06:54:04 PM »
  For all who have wondered where this prez and his values are coming from; it sure looks like both come from "the holy prophet"!
  BHO endorses the mosque to be built at ground zero.

  http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41060.html

 Yea,constitution be damned,the president should put a stop to this madness!!!

 Seriously,the same people complaining the president does not obey and uphold the constitution are upset that he now... wait for it...suggests that the constitution prevents the government from stopping someone from building a mosque (or Catholic church or Buddhist temple or any other religious building) on property that they own.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #136 on: August 22, 2010, 06:59:18 PM »
(subjoe...I think you should review or look again at who islamics consider "People of the Book" and their regard for the People of the Book)



OK, they got to pay extortionate protection money for the privilege of not converting to mohammedism.  They were, and are, subject to death for teaching their children about Christianity or Judeaism.  Under islamic law they may not improve or repair their houses of worship.  

Also, no matter what else, they are still classed as unbelievers, and in the koran you find passage after passage after passage that command that all unbelievers be killed.  

Quote
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54


Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
 

Just a couple that I happened to have saved.  There are others that command things like striking off their hands and feet, laying in wait and striking for their necks, crucifying them.  Yeah, I know a lot about how mohammed told his followers to treat Christians and Jews.  

By the way, I also have accounts directly from Christians who have come to the US from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria about how they were treated in those lands.
Talmud.

When a Jew murders Gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from Gentile he may keep (Sanhedrin 57a)

All Gentile children are animals (Yebamoth 98a)

If Jew is tempted to do evil, he should go to a city where he is not known and do evil (Moed Kattan 17a)

If Gentile hits Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is same as hitting God (Sanhedrin 58b)

Jews may use lies to circumvent a Gentile (Baba Kamma 113a)

Jew need not pay a Gentile any wages (Sanhedrin 57a)

And?  Are ANY of those being enforced or acted upon today?  Whereas the koranic exhortations are being applied every day.  But, I guess you can't see the difference.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #137 on: August 23, 2010, 02:19:56 AM »
  For all who have wondered where this prez and his values are coming from; it sure looks like both come from "the holy prophet"!
  BHO endorses the mosque to be built at ground zero.

  http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41060.html

 Yea,constitution be damned,the president should put a stop to this madness!!!

 Seriously,the same people complaining the president does not obey and uphold the constitution are upset that he now... wait for it...suggests that the constitution prevents the government from stopping someone from building a mosque (or Catholic church or Buddhist temple or any other religious building) on property that they own.

  You had ought to get your facts straight before you start interrupting. I said nothing about the constitution, since this whole thing is not a constitutional question..it is simply a question of respecting 3,000 dead Americans and their families. I am constantly amazed how everyone but the extreme left can understand the difference between a constitutional question and a question of decency and decorum. ::) ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #138 on: August 23, 2010, 02:33:00 AM »
Wreckhog;
  Subdjoe has a very valid point! Using the ancient writings of the Talmud , which is not being acted upon and the utterings of the Sanhedrin, whose last bindng vote was cast in 358 AD, followed shortly by the disbandment of the Sanhedrin; is poor scholarship. Even attempting to compare it it's effects today to the effects of radical Islam is downright disingenuous.
  Dig into ancient and esoteric writings all you want...The fact remains, Islam is sponsoring terrorist acts all over the world, killing thousands of innocents on busses, trains, planes, in restaurants, places of work, places of worship and at public events.
  The Talmud and the Sanhedrin have not done any of this for many,many centuries!  :D ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #139 on: August 23, 2010, 02:58:51 AM »
It never fails, when someone brings up muslims anthem doing something wrong. Someone tries to interject and turn ithis into an antisemetic thread.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #140 on: August 23, 2010, 03:40:15 AM »
The Talmud is used as a rationale every day.

“If one comes to slay you, rise up and slay him first” (Sanhedrin 72a).

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #141 on: August 23, 2010, 03:49:45 AM »
Romney and his two jewish partners did not have to sell the building for the project.


Actually you do. If you have a property up for sale , you can not refuse to sell it to anyone. Thanks to the 1960s civil rights bill.
                                Beerbelly

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #142 on: August 23, 2010, 05:30:57 AM »
Romney and his two jewish partners did not have to sell the building for the project.


Actually you do. If you have a property up for sale , you can not refuse to sell it to anyone. Thanks to the 1960s civil rights bill.
                                Beerbelly
The building was for sale at $18 million and sold for $4.85 million cash.

http://www.natefind.com/sold/45-park-pl-manhattan-10007/625869

Keep in mind that Ground Zero is supposed to be toxic and the closer you get, the less interested buyers are, and the harder it is to get financing. Selling price seems like a steal. But somewhere in the 75% price drop, I think that seller lost any interest they ever had in who might buy it, they just wanted it gone.

The building at 45-45 Park Place had been on the market for years with a sale price that at one point was $18 million. It was owned by Stephen Pomerantz, who died in 2006. His widow, Kukiko Mitani, said she was in debt and desperate to unload the property even at a bargain price of $4.8 million to El- Gamal.

She said she thought El-Gamal wanted to build condos, not a mosque — but he should build whatever he wants.

The Web site for the mosque and community-center project, now called Park 51, says it will be financed “with a mix of equity, financing and contributions.”




Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/half_baked_mosque_8ItuaW0WIByZa5xZ0rCmpJ#ixzz0xRI0VEqt

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #143 on: August 23, 2010, 05:40:20 AM »
Muslim Prayers and Renewal Near Ground Zero

NY TIMES
By RALPH BLUMENTHAL and SHARAF MOWJOOD
December 9, 2009

SLIDE SHOW: A House of Worship Near Ground Zero

On that still-quiet Tuesday morning, the sales staff was in a basement room eating breakfast, waiting to open the doors to the first shoppers at 10 a.m.

There was no immediate sign of the fiery cataclysm that erupted overhead starting at 8:46. But out of a baby-blue sky suddenly stained with smoke, a plane’s landing-gear assembly the size of a World War II torpedo crashed through the roof and down through two empty selling floors of the Burlington Coat Factory.

The Sept. 11, 2001, attack killed 2,752 people downtown and doomed the five-story building at 45 Park Place, two blocks north of the World Trade Center, keeping it abandoned for eight years.

But for months now, out of the public eye, an iron gate rises every Friday afternoon, and with the outside rumblings of construction at ground zero as a backdrop, hundreds of Muslims crowd inside, facing Mecca in prayer and listening to their imam read in Arabic from the Koran.

The building has no sign that hints at its use as a Muslim prayer space, but these modest beginnings point to a far grander vision: an Islamic center near the city’s most hallowed piece of land that would stand as one of ground zero’s more unexpected and striking neighbors.

The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.”

“We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61.

Although organizers have sought to avoid publicizing their project because they say plans are too preliminary, it has drawn early encouragement from city officials and the surrounding neighborhood.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg said through a spokesman that Imam Feisal told him of the project last September at a celebration to observe the end of Ramadan. As for whether Mr. Bloomberg supported it, the spokesman, Andrew Brent, said, “If it’s legal, the building owners have a right to do what they want.”

The mayor’s director of the Office of Immigrant Affairs, Fatima Shama, went further. “We as New York Muslims have as much of a commitment to rebuilding New York as anybody,” Ms. Shama said. Imam Feisal’s wife, Daisy Khan, serves on an advisory team for the National September 11 Memorial and Museum, and Lynn Rasic, a spokeswoman for the memorial, said, “The idea of a cultural center that strengthens ties between Muslims and people of all faiths and backgrounds is positive.”

Those who have worked with him say if anyone could pull off what many regard to be a delicate project, it would be Imam Feisal, whom they described as having built a career preaching tolerance and interfaith understanding.

“He subscribes to my credo: ‘Live and let live,’ ” said Rabbi Arthur Schneier, spiritual leader of Park East Synagogue on East 67th Street.

As a Sufi, Imam Feisal follows a path of Islam focused more on spiritual wisdom than on strict ritual, and as a bridge builder, he is sometimes focused more on cultivating relations with those outside his faith than within it.

But though the imam is adamant about what his intentions for the site are, there is anxiety among those involved or familiar with the project that it could very well become a target for anti-Muslim attacks.

Joan Brown Campbell, director of the department of religion at the Chautauqua Institution in upstate New York and former general secretary of the National Council of Churches of Christ U.S.A., who is a supporter of Imam Feisal, acknowledged the possibility of a backlash from those opposed to a Muslim presence at ground zero.

But, she added: “Building so close is owning the tragedy. It’s a way of saying: ‘This is something done by people who call themselves Muslims. We want to be here to repair the breach, as the Bible says.’ ”

The F.B.I. said Imam Feisal had helped agents reach out to the Muslim population after Sept. 11. “We’ve had positive interactions with him in the past,” said an agency spokesman, Richard Kolk. Alice Hoagland of Las Gatos, Calif., whose son, Mark Bingham, was killed in the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, said, “It’s quite a bold step buying a piece of land adjacent to ground zero,” but she said she considered plans for the site “a noble effort.”

On a recent Friday, worshipers in the old Burlington Coat Factory heard Imam Feisal’s call for spiritual purity during the time of the hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca.

“We like Imam Feisal, the way he presents the philosophy of the true Islam that I call it,” said one of the congregants, Mohammed Abdullah, an investment banker who traveled from Washington for the service.

The location is not designated a mosque, but rather an overflow prayer space for another mosque, Al Farah at 245 West Broadway in TriBeCa, where Imam Feisal is the spiritual leader.

Built in 1923, the building at 45 Park Place was bought by Sy Syms, the discount retailer, and a partner, Irving Pomerantz, in 1968, and became one of the early Syms stores. The store closed in 1990, the partners parted ways, and the Pomerantz family then leased the building to the Burlington Coat Factory.

On Sept. 11, the store, with 80 employees, was one of 250 Burlington outlets nationwide owned by the Milstein family. That morning, recalled Stephen Milstein, the company’s former general manager and vice president, the staff was in the basement when a piece of a plane plunged through the roof, either from American Airlines Flight 11 crashing into the north tower at 8:46 a.m., or United Airlines Flight 175 crashing into the south tower at 9:03.

Kukiko Mitani, whose husband, Stephen Pomerantz, owned the building at the time, tried to sell it for years, at one time asking $18 million. But when the recession hit, she sold it in July to a real estate investment firm, Soho Properties, for $4.85 million in cash, records show. One of the investors was the Cordoba Initiative, an interfaith group founded by Imam Feisal.

“It’s really to provide a place of peace, a place of services and solutions for the community which is always looking for interfaith dialogue,” said Sharif El-Gamal, chairman and chief executive of Soho Properties.

The patched-up roof was easily visible on a recent tour of the building, along with evidence of its sudden evacuation: food bags still in a fifth-floor staff refrigerator and, most eerily, a log sheet for the testing of the emergency alarm system that shows a sign-in signature for 9/11 but no sign-out.

Records kept by the city’s Department of Buildings show anonymous complaints for illegal construction and blocked exits at the site. Inspectors tried to check but were unable to gain access, so the complaints, though still open, were listed as “resolved” under city procedures, according to an agency spokeswoman, Carly Sullivan.

But worshipers are legally occupying the building, where retail space is offered for lease, once a week under temporary permits of assembly through December, Ms. Sullivan said.

With 50,000 square feet of air rights, Imam Feisal said, the location, with enough financing, could support an ambitious project of $150 million, akin to the Chautauqua Institution, the 92 Street Y or the Jewish Community Center.

Joy Levitt, executive director of the Jewish Community Center, said the group would be proud to be a model for Imam Feisal at ground zero. “For the J.C.C. to have partners in the Muslim community that share our vision of pluralism and tolerance would be great,” she said.

Mr. El-Gamal agreed. “What happened that day,” he said, “was not Islam.”

Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

Offline ironglow

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #144 on: August 23, 2010, 05:41:26 AM »
The Talmud is used as a rationale every day.

“If one comes to slay you, rise up and slay him first” (Sanhedrin 72a).

   Great try at "deflection", Wreckhog!  Now try answering the question.

  Who is most often murdering innocent people while they are shopping, attending worship services, eating at a restaurant, riding in a bus,train or plane, attending athletic events, vactioning or attending kindergarten? Is it the Jews or the Muslims?  
    ..A one word answer will suffice...

  .....And quit whining about the Sanhedrin, they haven't existed for over 1500 years..well before the camel driver invented Islam!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Casull

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #145 on: August 23, 2010, 05:57:30 AM »
Quote
Talmud is alive and well and like the OT far exceeds anything in the qu'ran implying hatred to non-believers.

I don't think that is possible.  It may be your opinion, but the "opinion" of an anti-semite in a matter like this is hardly a "fact".
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Casull

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2010, 06:01:28 AM »
Quote
Couple of analogies:

...You want to put in a swimming pool, but one of your neighbor's children died in a pool. He ask you to not put in a pool because of this....what do you do??

More accurate analagy:

...You want to put in a swimming pool, but one of your neighbor's children died was murdered in a pool by your distant cousin. He ask you to not put in a pool because of this....what do you do??
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #147 on: August 23, 2010, 06:19:54 AM »
Quote
Couple of analogies:

...You want to put in a swimming pool, but one of your neighbor's children died in a pool. He ask you to not put in a pool because of this....what do you do??

More accurate analagy:

...You want to put in a swimming pool, but one of your neighbor's children died was murdered in a pool by your distant cousin. He ask you to not put in a pool because of this....what do you do??
I put in a pool more than 566 feet away from the house?

Offline ironglow

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #148 on: August 23, 2010, 08:04:15 AM »
Talmud, Koran, Sanhedrin, sharia, ...mere words

    We all know the kernel of the truth;  "Pay litle attention to what they say...  It's what they DO that counts".


     So let's cut the BS and each answer for ourselves..Just who is doing all the suicide bombing, "honor" killing, plane,train & bus destroying?
  Who is stoning "acccused" people to death? Who beheads their wife and puts numerous 9mm slugs into their teenage daughters?
  Who is doing the beheadings, grade school massacres..who destroyed 3,000 lives on 9/11 and are murdering in the name of their god all over the world, every day?

   No need to reply or try to spread more BS..we can each decide the answers for ourselves.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline mrussel

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Re: Build mosque at ground zero? ..Obama would be delighted!
« Reply #149 on: August 23, 2010, 06:20:12 PM »
Lets see.....what am I missing here? The last I knew our constitution gave people in our country the freedom of religion and I don't remember it saying only if you liked or believed in that religion. Like it or not if the building is built with all the legal permits, etc. and you are a believer in the constitution how can it be stopped? Obama said that he supported their constitutional right to build at that location, not that he agreed with it being a good thing to do. Does the constitutional protection only apply to the Christian religion? Inquiring minds want to know.
GuzziJohn

Hmmm.....he is throwing the weight of the office of the President of the United States behind a particular religion.  How is that not "establishing" a religion as the left usually claims any hint of an official favoring any Christian religion (to the point of a member of a city council being forced to apologize for saying 'God Bless You" when someone sneezed during a meeting)?  If you want to look to someone being denied, look at the NINE YEARS of stonewalling that St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church has been subjected to.  The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese has owned the property since the 1920s or -30s.  But has been blocked from rebuilding the church that was destroyed.  And then the Port Authority has the gall to offer them land over the vehicle bomb screening facility. 

Also, why is it that Americans are expected to bend over backwards to keep from offending the sensibilities of every other culture, no matter where, but no one else is expected to give a fart in a tornado about the sensibilities of Americans?  In fact, Americans are accused of being racist, intolerant, and hateful if they dare to bring up their feeling offended by something. 

 No,I saw what he said. He wasnt endorsing any religion,just defending any religions right to build on their own privately owned property. They own the property,they can build what they want there. If the local government decides not to give them a permit to do it,because their religion is offensive to people in new york,that's in clear violation of the constitution. It also is a violation of the law if they make up some flimsy excuse not to give them a permit to build. (On the other hand,if their building design is unsound,or traffic in and out violates city ordinances that's a different thing and the permit CAN be denied) The reality is,there are people that want them to be denied the right to build there SOLELY becuase these people dont like their religion. If a synagogue or catholic church or Buddhist temple can be built there,then a mosque can be as well and the constitution protects their right to do it. Unlike some people out there,I believe in the constitution not just when its convenient, but always, period. Remember,if you dont defend the constitution even when you dont like the people that its protecting,then its not worth the paper its written on and the next person to need protecting may well be you. Gun owners for instance commonly invoke the constitution in defense of their rights. The courts in fact recently have agreed with them. If we decide that we can just ignore clearly set legal precedents and decisions of the courts becuase we dont like a particular group,whether they be flag burning hippies or Muslims building a mosque,then we end up with a situation where we have no laws at all,and the government can do whatever it pleases with no checks or balances whatsoever. Dont like an election? Ignore the constitution? Dont like that the courts just ruled that you can have handguns in DC? Just ignore it and keep arresting people. Dont like people complaining about how your ignoring the constitution? Throw em in jail.

 It may be the case that the government gets away with alot,and the courts are slow to stop it,but in the end,laws are generally followed and when the courts rule,their rulings ARE followed. The biggest threat to our democracy and our constitution is not some nebulous conspiracy or whichever political party you happen to dislike or demonize,its the people who want selective enforcement of laws (including the highest law,the constitution itself) to serve only their political ideals.