Advice needed concerning 7mm R Mag load I'm working on.

[demented]

 Rifle is an A-Bolt Browning Stainless Stalker, 26" barrel, BOSS equipped.  Powder is H-4831sc, CCI 250 primers, 150 gr bullets, Winchester brass.  So far I'm at 66 grains of powder with no signs of over pressure, velocity a slow 2900 fps, chronographed.  At 66 grains, depending on lad manual used, I'm either at or four grains over max load.  I WAS hoping to obtain 3000 fps with this bullet/powder but now I'm a bit nervous when thinking of adding more powder to get velocity into magnum speeds.

[Smokin Joe]

According to Hodgdon, the 150's max out at 2900 to 2950 or so with most powders. That's already a 1000 yd load; do you need more?

[Catfish]

With a Sierra 150 bullet at 2,900 it had a max point blank range of 350 yrds ( plus or minus 5 in). At 3,000 it MPB was 360 yrds. 10 yrds?? so what. You are .2 gn. over their max. and their test barrel 26 in. so if yours is less than 26 in. don`t expect the extra 100 fps. I assure that anything you hit will not be able to tell the difference.

[demented]

 What makes this a bit confusing for me is that I see no pressure signs, NONE!  Primers are nowhere near as flattened as those from the Federal Premium I've been using, case expansion is zilch, bolt opens easily.  I am wondering if the loads listed for H4831 are intentionally low for some unknown reason?  Perhaps I need to try a slower or even a faster burning powder?  I'd always heard that H4831 was a great 7mm mag powder.    And yeah, my barrel is a full 26" then had four inches of muzzlebrake screwed on, dang thing looks like a single shot shotgun with a 30" barrel.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Pa, when I loaded most of my 7mm,s I used either 4350 or Re 22...I liked 22 the best....sometimes one has a rifle with a large chamber that can safely take more powder than one with a min...chamber...so you might not be out of line ...Hagel did an couple articles on this in his books and for Rifle or Handloader when they were excellent magazines...he gave some good tips on checking pressure for the average guy...if you cannot not locate his stuff, let me know..I have it here some where.....used it all the time when I was developing loads for my rifles..don't do much of that now..

[demented]

 I'd be happy to buy those books if you care to part with them.  I've never loaded belted cartridges before this and to be honest I think I'm getting into something thats part voodoo, part luck with a bit of skill thrown in.  For those questioning my wanting more speed, I do understand where you are coming from but I really do want my magnum to do magnum velocities, otherwise I might as well go to a 30-06, 270 or 280.   Almost forgot...thanks to all that have taken the time to reply, I appreciate any and all input.

[Catfish]

You should see no signs of presure if you are loading safe presures, you see them when your getting into the danger zone.

[Keith1]

Demented,
      Your situation is exactly why I use a micrometer when working up a load. As mentioned above that is how Bob Hagel determened a max load.
      Just guessing but your barrel probably has a long throat.I am NOT ADVISING YOU TO DO THIS BUT what I would do is measure very carefully across the belt of the brass that you are using, record that number, add some powder and fire the round. After firing the round I would measure in exactly the same place and check for expansion. If none add more powder. Use the same case and fire again. By using the used case you have already experienced the initial expansion and any expansion more is TO MUCH PRESSURE. As long as you are not expanding the brass, thus the primer pocket, you do not have dangerous pressure.
Bob Hagel said many times in his old articles in Handloader Magazine [I have most copies since 1973] that you should determine where Max is in YOUR RIFLE FOR THAT LOAD.
AGAIN I AM NOT RECCOMENDING THAT YOU DO THIS. This is what I would do.
Regards, Keith
   

[demented]

 Catfish, thats what I've always thought, but I've always been able to obtain normal cartridge velocities within load manual listings....until now.  Hard for me to believe I can't safely exceed 2900 fps with a 150gr bullet when just about everyone states 3100 fps is common with 150's from a 7mm R Mag.  As I said, at 66 grains primers are still round, no flattening, no case expansion, no marks on the cartridge face, no bolt sticking at all.  I "think" I could go up another two or three grains safely but all I've read or been taught tells me to NEVER exceed book max.  As things stand, I have several pounds of H4831sc that has suddenly become next to worthless, I will probably need to buy a different powder to get my targeted 3000fps.   Keith, I've been measuring right above the belt....is this wrong?  I will do the belt if thats whats needed.  BTW: a friend is doing the exact (brass, bullets, primers, powder-all) same load for his Vanguard, he's already at 3000 with a 24" barrel @ 66 grains.  He has no high pressure signs but his fired brass shows he's at the top.

[yooper77]

Rifle is a Browning Stainless Stalker, 26" barrel, BOSS equipped.  Powder is H-4831sc, CCI 250 primers, 150 gr bullets, Winchester brass.  So far I'm at 66 grains of powder with no signs of over pressure, velocity a slow 2900 fps, chronographed.  At 66 grains, depending on lad manual used, I'm either at or four grains over max load.  I WAS hoping to obtain 3000 fps with this bullet/powder but now I'm a bit nervous when thinking of adding more powder to get velocity into magnum speeds.

Speed is all hype.  How accurate is your load? I advise you to not get hung up on how fast you can send the bullet, but if you are able to constantly hit your intended target.

yooper7

[demented]

Yooper, I was hoping to obtain a performance edge over my .308 which does an honest 2825 with my load using 150's and IMR 4064. ( SAFELY!)  Now and then a four hundred yard shot is offered, I consider my .308 good to perhaps 325 yards, energy levels drop too much past this range for me to be comfortable taking a shot.  Hence my foray into the belted class.  Guess I should have held out for a 300 Win Mag but I did think the 7 Mag with its factory listed velocities would do the job.  Almost forgot: Have yet to try for accuracy, I've always worked my loads for pressure first, them load several at max on down three or four grains seeing what shoots best.  Have always used IMR powders with great success, beginning to think my first try with Hodgon may be my last.

[mirage1988]

I too have a browning 7mag stalker. It is a semi-auto which uses some of the chamber pressure to cycle the action. If you are trying to duplicate vanguard velocities with your semi-auto please list me as a beneficiary!

[Keith1]

Demented,
      I have a 7X57 Ruger that uses so much powder it's mind boggling. Every rifle is a case unto it's self.
      As far as measuring expansion in front of the belt I think that you would have to have some standard to compair it to.
      I have used the belt expansion method for probably 30 years and it works. Just remember that the brass case is nothing more than a gasket. If yor are not expanding the gasket you are OK.
      H4831 comes on slow. The best powder to learn with is old surplus 4831 but sadly it's gone. So does IMR 7828 come on slow. 7828 sort of reminds me of the old 4831. Don't be afraid that it will spike on you. Once you have more expansion over the initial expansion back down about one grain or so and call it max.
AGAIN, I AM NOT RECCOMENDING THIS. THIS IS THE WAY THAT I LOAD FOR MY RIFLES.

Regards, Keith

[Dand]

I'm a real Hagel fan but some of his old loads are scary - and it seems he figured 5 loads per case was good.  I don't do the 7mm mag but have a 300 win. I don't load as hot as Hagel and I think I've gotten 10+ loads per case, excellent accuracy, and adequate power. Also according to some articles I've read in the last couple years, measuring cases, viewing primers etc are not real realiable pressure indicators. Still, its all we have unless  you have a pressure barrel or pay a lab for tests. Like Keith1 said, each gun is unique. I think the 4831's aren't too touchy if you inch up carefully. For the first time, I just loaded some mid level 7mm mag ammo for a friend but in my reading I did not see that H4831 was a top choice for the round. For getting the highest velocities possible you might be safer to get different powder.  But like others say, velocity isn't everything. I actually load my 300 lighter than possible for less meat damage, easier on the barrel, me, & the cases - while still out performing my 30-06.  Looking at ballistic charts I tend to view the 7mm Rem as a dolled up '06. For bullets over 150 gr the performance seems the same tho I know the 7 carries a little better at long range.

[demented]

  Yeah, I'm beginning to think of the 7mm R Mag as being one of the most over rated cartridges.  A bunch of fuss and extra expense just to top a .280 or even a 7mm08 by a couple hundred fps. (if lucky)  I do know that my .308 kills as well at 300 yards and I use the same point blank aim for both it and my 7mm.

[Lloyd Smale]

my two favorite powders in the 7mag are 4831sc and re19. I would surely take that 4831 off your hands if you lived close by. Heres a couple things to keep in mind. first some guns just shoot slow. Ive seen 200 fps differnces in two guns with the same barrel lenght using the same load. Another is chronographs. Before you bad mouth your load try it over a differnt chrono. We set up a chrony my pact and my buddys ohler last summer and saw a 175 fps swing between the three of them. the pact and the ohler were withing 50 fps but the chrony was way off. It was another buddys chrony. I had one back years ago and got rid of it because it was 200 fps off on 1200 fps handgun loads. I sent it to get recalibrated and it was no better when it came back. I gave it away in the end. One more thing ive noticed with the 7mag is loading data and max loads verys greatly from one source to another and my old loading manuals will sometimes list charge weights 5 gains heavier then some of the new manuals. Im not saying those older charge weights were safe but im sure guys used them for years without blowing up guns. The 300 win mag is another one that the newer loading manuals have really backed off on. For the most part if you use a load thats in one of the newer manuals in the 300 you might as well use an 06. Does the last 200 fps matter. Thats debateable. An o6 will kill anything a 300 mag will but if im using a 300 mag i want 300 mag ballistics if not id just as soon carry a 06 or 308 that usually has a lighter barrel and weights 2 lbs less. Ive never been one to down load a rifle. If i want less power i use a less powerful round. Part of it is accuracy. Ive never got guilt edged accuracy loading down big cases

[bobg]

  I just checked a couple of manuals. It looks like RE-22 Is the powder to go with useing the 150gr. Bullet. Still can't figure out why anyone would want to go over the book max. load. I have never run my 270 Win. over the Crony. I am   1/2 grs. under max. and it is instant death on whitetail size game. I have never wanted to find out i wasn't getting the speed i think i am and be dissapointed.

[bobg]

  That was suppose to say 1 1/2 grs. Under max. load.

[Keith1]

    Where I live and hunt high velocity to me is very important. Here we have millions of trees but the problem is that they are only about knee high. It's called sage. The country is very open and most of the time windy so high velocity is a very important component of rifle selection. If you are shooting short distances probably most anything will work.
    Where I hunt elk a 300 yard shot is a short one. Even if you remember the load trajectory doping for the wind is very tricky and for me difficult. If you are shooting off a bench you have time to figure things out because most paper targets are not going to run off and leave you in the dust. High velocity for me just makes things more simple.
     And no I didn't say that in every case magnums are the way to go. In fact if I had to state what round that I like most it would probably be the 30/06 but in fact I like them ALL. If I am using the 30/06 you can bet that it's loaded to full potental however.
     The only reason that I entered into this discussion is to try to explain how I try to get maximum potential out of what ever caliber that I am using.
Regards, keith
     

[yooper77]

  Yeah, I'm beginning to think of the 7mm R Mag as being one of the most over rated cartridges.  A bunch of fuss and extra expense just to top a .280 or even a 7mm08 by a couple hundred fps. (if lucky)  I do know that my .308 kills as well at 300 yards and I use the same point blank aim for both it and my 7mm.

Belted or non-belted magnums are over rated in my eyes they have been for many years.

I hand load for my following cartridges for big game: 243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington, 7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved, 270 Winchester, 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved, and 338-06 A-Square.

I have found these cartridge take game out to 300 yards without needing any more speed. Additionally any further distance than 300 yards can be stalked closer even when I have hunted in flat open sage brush out west.

The thing is a few or couple hundred FPS less than the belted or non-belted magnums doesn’t mean anything.  If a person sends an adequate bullet on target then it will do its work.

yooper77

[simplicity]

According to the hornady volume #2 (1973) max load for 4831 is 69.1 grains (3100fps)  all the loads from this manual that I have loaded have chrono'd out at the velocity the manual claimed it would.  I myself go by old manuals more then the newer manuals. All the loads I chrono with data from the new manuals (rifle calibers) have chrono'd about 200fps below what was claimed for the load. Hope this helps

[zeke08]

I have only been loading and shooting 7mm rem mag since 98 and I have NEVER broke 3025 fps with re 19 4831 or re 22 and that was over several chronys. But I have taken deer in bean fields out to 400 yards and have not lost a deer yet. I just accept that its not a 3100 fps round but its a very flat shooting and extremely lethal round on deer and hogs. As long as your with in 1" groups or less what more do you really need? Just my lowly opinion.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  One thing, when I was really working with my 7mm Rem. didn't try 150's all my loading was with 160's ,140's and 120's... My final big game load especially for deer/antelope is a 140 grain BTBT...It does out standing with a top load of Re22, (I used the Alliant booklet, not Nosler)..with a just under a top load, it would kick a 140 BTBT at or just under 3400fps. It has put the hurt on elk, moose, mule deer, whitetails, antelope, and caribou...it is a powerful flat shooting load that carries enough bullet weight to kill well at longer ranges...If i were going seriously elk hunt with this load, I would substitue 140 Part....something to consider...with the little 7mm Wea. it will kick the 140 even faster and I haven;t even reached the top load...

[Keith1]

    I had a 7MM on a 700 Remington. This rifle was short throated and the seated bullet, a 160 Gr. Partition protruded below the neck into the powder space. I got to reading different articles that said that if you had enough magazine space you could have the throat reamed out so as to seat the bullet out longer thus having more room for powder. I sent the rifle to a gunsmith in Casper and he did the job.
    I had 20 pounds of old surplus 4831 that I had paid $1.89 a pound for and that was the powder that worked good in that rifle. When the rifle returned I could indeed burn 2 grains more powder. I didn't have a chronograph at the time so I didn't know if bullet speed had picked up corrospondly. The accruracy [very good]was the same and it still knocked them elk dead.
     That rifle now wears a 26 inch 300 barrel that is long throated like the 7 MM. It burns lots of powder and knocks them elk dead.
Regards, Keith

[demented]

 Finally got my velocity up to 3050.  I DO NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM SUGGEST ANYONE DOING WHAT I DID. While seemingly safe in my rifle, this load might send yours into orbit, you with it.   I went up from newer load manual max load of 66 grains, to 68 grains of powder, this charge weight one grain less than listed in an early 1970's loading manual.  I still had NO high pressure signs, primers still not flattened or cratered in the least.   ZERO case expansion, all were checked before and after firing. Bolt lift still as easy as when chamber empty, no marks of any kind on brass face.   Thanks to all who took the time to reply and also to those that sent PM's with advice   Now I have a starting point, working down to see what sort of accuracy I can get.  I did notice that once I got to the upper end of my powder charge weights, my shot to shot velocities tightened up, deviation for five shots less than 20fps.  What this shows/proves?

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  I have always felt and heard low variation of speed was a good showing a good load...things working smoothly....

[Keith1]

Demented,
     I am glad that you took the bull by the horns. Each rifle is a law unto its self. When those people write those reload manuals they have got to be super safe. I for sure would not bad mouth them at all but does their info pertain to your rifle? probably not and that is the reason that you must check what is safe in YOUR RIFLE, not theirs.

     Regards, Keith

[demented]

 While I am going NO further, from what I've seen, provided H4831 creeps up to max pressure, I honestly believe I could have gone well over 3100 with this brass, bullet, powder, primer, rifle combo and still not shown high pressure signs.  Throat length or SOMETHING about this rifle is unreal.  I'll let everyone know how the shooting turns out, my intent is to see what she'll do accuracy wise this weekend.  Again, thank ALL of you for your help, I'd have never had the ahhh, ....guts to have continued without your advice, comments