lasers?

[Merle]

Greetings,

I have been following posts about lasers on various boards, and as expected opinions vary wildly.

I have been of the opinion that they would be most beneficial to someone that does not practice a lot. However, several State Troopers that hang out at my local gun shop have negative feelings about their use; namely it is too easy to get distracted by looking at the red dot & losing the big picture/situational awareness. It seems to me that every SWAT team & Special Forces operator use them, so they must not be completely useless.

After pondering about this, I "think" that this is mostly a training issue, somewhat similar to the "tunnel vision" effect that is so common. Therefore the more highly trained folks are able to use them more effectively than most folks.

Any thoughts on this?

       

 

[Dee]

From personal experience in a fight, tunnel vision occurred and after the event and talking to others whom had similar events, loss of hearing (muffled), and tunnel vision, along with everything seeming to slow down, my reactions to the stress seemed pretty normal. It was over so fast, I have no recollection actually of obtaining a sight picture, but I obviously had on both occurrences. Keep in mind, I trained and commaned swat teams, but stress is stress. I was confident of winning or I wouldn't have been there, but muscle memory took over, along with the strong desire to win, or should I say, fear of not winning? I cannot imagine attempting to locate the red dot projected by the laser in a stand up fight.
They are a hoot to play with, and in a more controlled fight, I could see their place.
I have an uncle that has one on his Kimber, and he has become totally reliant on it for accuracy, but loves it. He also has never been in a fight with it, or any other weapon. Maybe he can avoid that test.

[Merle]

From personal experience in a fight, tunnel vision occurred and after the event and talking to others whom had similar events, loss of hearing (muffled), and tunnel vision, along with everything seeming to slow down, my reactions to the stress seemed pretty normal. It was over so fast, I have no recollection actually of obtaining a sight picture, but I obviously had on both occurrences. Keep in mind, I trained and commaned swat teams, but stress is stress. I was confident of winning or I wouldn't have been there, but muscle memory took over, along with the strong desire to win, or should I say, fear of not winning? I cannot imagine attempting to locate the red dot projected by the laser in a stand up fight.
They are a hoot to play with, and in a more controlled fight, I could see their place.
I have an uncle that has one on his Kimber, and he has become totally reliant on it for accuracy, but loves it. He also has never been in a fight with it, or any other weapon. Maybe he can avoid that test.

Thanks for the feedback. I too hope your uncle can avoid the test.

I'm asking this question as I am wrapped around the axle about my wife's new S&W M60 Lady Smith. I get such conflictiong opinions I don't know what to think. According to the manufacturers they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they are the ones selling them.

As a contractor, I am on the road a lot & want her to be better able to protect herself. She is 4' - 11" & 95 lbs with arthritic hands, so I am looking for every possible advantage for her. I also know she will not practice enough, so ...

Perhap I should just get her the laser from Crimson Trace, as I have several other S&W's that I could put it on in case she doesn't like it. That way I could see how well she reacted to it. At least it wouldn't be a total waste, as I could get some use from it. 

I guess it is still a training issue about becoming reliant on them, and losing the total picture.

Thanks again.

 

[Graybeard]

Understand up front I've never had to use a gun in a self defense situation yet and hope I never have to so my opinion unlike Dan's is not based on personal experience in a gun fight.

I am sold on lasers and wish I had one on EVERY self defense firearm I own and likely eventually will. With short barrel guns like your wife's S&W better accuracy can be obtained with the laser than with the sights on the gun. I've proven that many times with my own personal S&W M60 3" which has adjustable sights on it and a CTC Laser grip as well.

I'm looking for a Kel-Tec P3AT to use in lieu of my P32 and as soon as I find a shop with one in stock it will get a CTC laser and be used when something that small is about all I can conceal tho I'm more comfortable with my S&W 638 than either model of the Kel-Tec.

I can see how the laser could be confusing if you were in a situation with lots of them in use in close quarters but if it's you and the bad guy and you have the laser I just don't see how it would be confusing. If you have the gun pointed to where it is a danger to the bad guy then the laser is rat there on him. The beauty of it is that you can fire from any position even from the hip if speed required it using that laser with equal accuracy to a well aimed shot.

I've played around with the lasers at length and am totally sold on them. I plan to eventually get them on my defense shotguns and ARs as well as all defense handguns.

My opinion might change if I'm ever actually in a fire fight but until then I'm sold on lasers.

[Merle]

Understand up front I've never had to use a gun in a self defense situation yet and hope I never have to so my opinion unlike Dan's is not based on personal experience in a gun fight.

I am sold on lasers and wish I had one on EVERY self defense firearm I own and likely eventually will. With short barrel guns like your wife's S&W better accuracy can be obtained with the laser than with the sights on the gun. I've proven that many times with my own personal S&W M60 3" which has adjustable sights on it and a CTC Laser grip as well.

I'm looking for a Kel-Tec P3AT to use in lieu of my P32 and as soon as I find a shop with one in stock it will get a CTC laser and be used when something that small is about all I can conceal tho I'm more comfortable with my S&W 638 than either model of the Kel-Tec.

I can see how the laser could be confusing if you were in a situation with lots of them in use in close quarters but if it's you and the bad guy and you have the laser I just don't see how it would be confusing. If you have the gun pointed to where it is a danger to the bad guy then the laser is rat there on him. The beauty of it is that you can fire from any position even from the hip if speed required it using that laser with equal accuracy to a well aimed shot.

I've played around with the lasers at length and am totally sold on them. I plan to eventually get them on my defense shotguns and ARs as well as all defense handguns.

My opinion might change if I'm ever actually in a fire fight but until then I'm sold on lasers.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm finding it very difficult to make a decision here as to what to recomend to her. I guess it scares me to think that the wrong decision could have very serious results, and what works for me might not work for her.

Like you I have never been in a gunfight, but have had to draw several times with trouble imminent. I did experience the conditions tht Dee mentioned above, but to a somewhat lessor degree as there was no lead in the air.

[Bigeasy]

Merle

Up until recently, I had never been a fan of lasers, or in fact had never used one on a handgun.  The agency I worked for used them on AR-15's and MP-5's, and they did seem to increase both speed and hit potential in poor light during room clearing exercises.  But, being raised on iron sights, and the mantra of sight picture and trigger control, they never really interested me.

Then last year I bought a Kimber 1911 with the laser grips.  Really liked the gun (an ultra carry 1911 .45), and the grips came with it.  Well, after using it, I have changed my mind.  In a perfect world, sight alignment is still king.  But in poor light, or for sheer speed on target, the laser wins.  As Bill said, another added benefit is you can fire your weapon from any position; from the hip, from behind cover with the gun held over your head, don't matter, just put the red dot on target, and pull the trigger.

I think they are a boon for those lacking the hours and hours of serious training needed to be really effective with iron sights in all conditions, making fast hits easier and quicker. 

Larry

[Dee]

I really have nothing against lasers, but I cannot imagine them being faster than reaction point shooting in close quarters. I have trained in low light, and almost no light, and muscle memory along with reaction time is thoughtless. You just do it. As far as the Model 60 Merle, the laser could aid in a room distance shot, but in close is where it shines and really what it's for.
When everything goes to hell on you, thinking at close range will get you killed, and I believe looking for that red dot will also. There's nothing wrong with a contact wound from muzzle flash on an outlaw. The forensic folks call it tattooing. That hot gas chasin that bullet into the body, is just a little added incentive for him to cease and desist his unfriendly behavior.
Now I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, I just givin Merle two view points, one of which is my own experience, and as I have said. That's just my view point from what works for me.

[Merle]

Merle

Up until recently, I had never been a fan of lasers, or in fact had never used one on a handgun.  The agency I worked for used them on AR-15's and MP-5's, and they did seem to increase both speed and hit potential in poor light during room clearing exercises.  But, being raised on iron sights, and the mantra of sight picture and trigger control, they never really interested me.

Then last year I bought a Kimber 1911 with the laser grips.  Really liked the gun (an ultra carry 1911 .45), and the grips came with it.  Well, after using it, I have changed my mind.  In a perfect world, sight alignment is still king.  But in poor light, or for sheer speed on target, the laser wins.  As Bill said, another added benefit is you can fire your weapon from any position; from the hip, from behind cover with the gun held over your head, don't matter, just put the red dot on target, and pull the trigger.

I think they are a boon for those lacking the hours and hours of serious training needed to be really effective with iron sights in all conditions, making fast hits easier and quicker. 

Larry

OK, thanks for the feedback.

[Merle]

I really have nothing against lasers, but I cannot imagine them being faster than reaction point shooting in close quarters. I have trained in low light, and almost no light, and muscle memory along with reaction time is thoughtless. You just do it. As far as the Model 60 Merle, the laser could aid in a room distance shot, but in close is where it shines and really what it's for.
When everything goes to hell on you, thinking at close range will get you killed, and I believe looking for that red dot will also. There's nothing wrong with a contact wound from muzzle flash on an outlaw. The forensic folks call it tattooing. That hot gas chasin that bullet into the body, is just a little added incentive for him to cease and desist his unfriendly behavior.
Now I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, I just givin Merle two view points, one of which is my own experience, and as I have said. That's just my view point from what works for me.

I'm still fuzzy about it, as I too am old school & have never shot a lazer. I'm inclined to think that mucho traing & muscle memory will do the job up close. But there is the dilemma - I know she will not practice enough to develop the muscle memory, so I'm hoping for a band-aid fix. I'm on the road a lot, and just won't be there to get her motivated enough to get to the range.

It has taken me enough time just to get her to agree to step up & get something with more capability than her 32 H&R mag in the 4" S&W M631. At least a 38 is a step in the right direction, and I can start her off with light loads & work up the power level as she gets used to it. I plan to drag the S&W kit gun out of mothballs & let her work on shooting DA with it, since the ammo is a lot cheaper.

I do value the opinions of those with experience, and like to know what works for them.

Thanks.

[Dee]

Merle my wife and 78 year old mother, both carry Smith Model 637-2s. Neither one are training fanatics so I simply slicked up the actions on both pistols, and done a lot of mindset indoctrination with them. I told them not to shoot across the room if someone got into the house on them, and not to waste ammo. Let'em get closer where missing would be difficult. Keep the gun low, and out of sight. If they got in too close, just push the barrel into the perp, and start pulling the trigger. With the entrance wounds being flooded with the hot gases the perp will get the idea, and there is little to no chance of missing.
Not even my closest friends know when I am carrying. Some of them assume, or suspect, but don't know for sure. In a tight situation I don't want them to panic and tip the perp off that I am armed as, I will then be focused on. My retaliation for the assault will come sudden and unexpected, and will if I keep my head, be final, and over quickly. Never show your cards to the others at the table.

[lrs]

I have never fired a weapon equipped with a laser.
And I have never been in a firefight.
Heck, in my adult life, I've never been in a violent situation.
I have been giving it some thought for my J-frame Smith & Wesson, .38.
I can't help but think in dark or low light conditions, it would be beneficial.

[Dee]

Irs, if you bought the new ones that are mounted in the grip, how could you go wrong? I wouldn't mind having one to at least give a try, and even if you never used it, it is there if it were ever needed.

[Merle]

Merle my wife and 78 year old mother, both carry Smith Model 637-2s. Neither one are training fanatics so I simply slicked up the actions on both pistols, and done a lot of mindset indoctrination with them. I told them not to shoot across the room if someone got into the house on them, and not to waste ammo. Let'em get closer where missing would be difficult. Keep the gun low, and out of sight. If they got in too close, just push the barrel into the perp, and start pulling the trigger. With the entrance wounds being flooded with the hot gases the perp will get the idea, and there is little to no chance of missing.
Not even my closest friends know when I am carrying. Some of them assume, or suspect, but don't know for sure. In a tight situation I don't want them to panic and tip the perp off that I am armed as, I will then be focused on. My retaliation for the assault will come sudden and unexpected, and will if I keep my head, be final, and over quickly. Never show your cards to the others at the table.

That sounds like a pretty good solution, and one that should work in my case - thanks. I have seen contact wounds from a small caliber auto (380, if I recall correctly) while working security at an ER - it was pretty ugly.

And I really agree with slicking up the action - she can barely manage an average DA pull. That little detail made me conside a SA auto, but she can't easily manage the slide on one of them. Choosing a gun sure turned into a dilemma, but I keep coming back to a revolver for its simplicity.

[Dee]

Merle my mother is very slight of build, and weak. My wife is of average size, but her hands have a lot of arthritis, I have told them both, if you can pull the trigger double action, pull the hammer back and shoot it single action. It is not an ideal situation, but one does what one does to win.

[The Pistoleer]

I am a better than average pistol shot.  When I bought mt S&W 638 I put a set of Crimson Trace grips on it.  I can shoot fine with the fixed sights but in dim light or in an awkward position the laser might just be a life saver.   I don't think I would carry a gun without them now that I have had them on for a year or so.

Pete

[Merle]

Merle my mother is very slight of build, and weak. My wife is of average size, but her hands have a lot of arthritis, I have told them both, if you can pull the trigger double action, pull the hammer back and shoot it single action. It is not an ideal situation, but one does what one does to win.

Dee,

You are absolutely right. DA would be a bit quicker, but SA is a lot better than nothing. My wife is left handed & broke her (yep) left wrist a couple of years ago. That sure didn't help. At any rate, she still has her grip exercisor & I have asked her to get it out & work with it. I'm hoping that will make a big enough difference that she can manage DA easier. I'm also going to spring for an action job, to give her every possible advantage.

At least now she is willing to get active & practice, so that is encouraging. Guess I'll have to give her back her S&W kit gun, and drag along my Ruger while woods-walking.

At least I won't go broke buying 22 LR, and I have little time to reload 38 SPL these days - factory ammo sure puts a dent in your wallet!

Thanks for the advice.

[Merle]

I am a better than average pistol shot.  When I bought mt S&W 638 I put a set of Crimson Trace grips on it.  I can shoot fine with the fixed sights but in dim light or in an awkward position the laser might just be a life saver.   I don't think I would carry a gun without them now that I have had them on for a year or so.

Pete

Thanks for the feedback.

[AtlLaw]

Sorry for being late, I just noticed this thread and since Kathie has demanded that when I get her her pistol it had to have a lazer sight, I thought I'd better read this!   

Now whatever makes my wife-mate happy just tickles the heck outa me, but I'm not real hip on the idea of the lazer.  And Dee put down the reason why best.  (emphisis added)

From personal experience in a fight, tunnel vision occurred and after the event and talking to others whom had similar events, loss of hearing (muffled), and tunnel vision, along with everything seeming to slow down, my reactions to the stress seemed pretty normal. It was over so fast, I have no recollection actually of obtaining a sight picture, but I obviously had on both occurrences. Keep in mind, I trained and commaned swat teams, but stress is stress. I was confident of winning or I wouldn't have been there, but muscle memory took over, along with the strong desire to win, or should I say, fear of not winning? I cannot imagine attempting to locate the red dot projected by the laser in a stand up fight.
They are a hoot to play with, and in a more controlled fight, I could see their place.
I have an uncle that has one on his Kimber, and he has become totally reliant on it for accuracy, but loves it. He also has never been in a fight with it, or any other weapon. Maybe he can avoid that test.

As for myself I'll re-quote Dee  "I cannot imagine attempting to locate the red dot projected by the laser in a stand up fight. "  But I shall read on... 

[The Pistoleer]

Sorry for being late, I just noticed this thread and since Kathie has demanded that when I get her her pistol it had to have a lazer sight, I thought I'd better read this!   

Now whatever makes my wife-mate happy just tickles the heck outa me, but I'm not real hip on the idea of the lazer.  And Dee put down the reason why best.  (emphisis added)

From personal experience in a fight, tunnel vision occurred and after the event and talking to others whom had similar events, loss of hearing (muffled), and tunnel vision, along with everything seeming to slow down, my reactions to the stress seemed pretty normal. It was over so fast, I have no recollection actually of obtaining a sight picture, but I obviously had on both occurrences. Keep in mind, I trained and commaned swat teams, but stress is stress. I was confident of winning or I wouldn't have been there, but muscle memory took over, along with the strong desire to win, or should I say, fear of not winning? I cannot imagine attempting to locate the red dot projected by the laser in a stand up fight.
They are a hoot to play with, and in a more controlled fight, I could see their place.
I have an uncle that has one on his Kimber, and he has become totally reliant on it for accuracy, but loves it. He also has never been in a fight with it, or any other weapon. Maybe he can avoid that test.

As for myself I'll re-quote Dee  "I cannot imagine attempting to locate the red dot projected by the laser in a stand up fight. "  But I shall read on... 

Just try one. You won't have to look for the dot in a dim light it is just there.  Now in bright light you might have to hunt for it but then you should be able to see your sights.  I don't think they are a replacement for regular sights but rather an added aide in dim light situations.

Pete

[Dee]

Pistoleer, now that you have clarified in your last post I would tend to go along to a degree, BUT! Muscle memory, and mindset take completely over in a fight. That is a statistical fact. You don't think, you decide and react. If you mix your training on a hand gun between laser, and open sights, where will you go when TSHTF? A question you may not get to ponder after the fight.
I trained officers to hit in low light situations, and almost no light situations, and it works. Try it in total darkness with a strobe light, or a flashlight laying or the ground. In 20 years of L.E. I never wore less than a Master Medal, and one officer that I know of, last year thanked me for his training in reaction shooting and mindset training. He started from the holster, when the perp already had gun in hand. Even the dead perp's brother, and whom witnessed the fight, testified in Grand Jury that Jim had no choice. He was and and IS an officer dedicated to repetition. Consistency wins a fight, not gadgets, and though useful in some tactical arenas, let's face it. The laser is a gadget. JMO
I have ran "The El Presidente" (12 rounds with a reload in the middle, engaging 3 targets 4 rounds each) with a 100% score, using duty ammo, duty 1911, and duty holster, belt, and magazine pouches in under 5.5 seconds consistantly. There are folks better than I, but not much better. Reason? Consistency, and a "Keep it simple stupid" training method. The fewer gadgets thrown into a fight, the fewer things to deal with when "life gets simple".

[The Pistoleer]

Dee, I understand just what you are saying.  However most civilians don't have the time, the money or the  the place or the inclination to train to the extent that they will be proficient in a low light situation. A confrontation with a person who doesn't have your well being in mind is most likely going to take place in a dim lit place.  One's adrenalin is going to be dumping and the acquiring of a good sight picture probably won't be possible.

We all know of incidents where well trained LEOs have fired multiple shots with few if any hits in gunfights.  I know of one local officer who missed a perp, who was shooting at him, across the hood of a car.  He was a better than average shot but still missed when the chips were down.  He did manage to subdue the guy after the perp's cheap auto jammed.

I really think we all should at least try a laser before we decide.

Pete

[Dee]

Being a Police range and tactical instructor for 18 1/2 of my 20 years of L.E. career I sadly will say that I haven't met many "well trained" LEOs on the street. I have met a bunch of AMAZINGLY TRAINED Swaters, and other tactical officers, but I have also met some ringers in that field.
As a general rule a police officer qualifies once, to twice a year, and the standards of qualification are set at a level where even the weaker ones qualify. Don't want to discriminate you know. I don't think you and I are as far apart as you might think, and I appreciate your patience with me, as many do not understand my blunt way of expression, but I suppose my 20 years in L.E. are partly responsible. I am not condemning the laser on a handgun, I am Cautioning that it is not a good idea to train in a combat mode with one, when seconds count.
A better way of putting it, would be to say: Use it for marksmanship in the way you would shoot bulls-eye targets, with the mental attitude of: I might have to use this particular skill to take a life also. I would more concentrate on my eye to hand coordination, and muscle memory skills as I am one of those officers whom used a handgun on two separate occasions one after midnight, and one at almost precisely midnight. On both occasions I Have no recollection of sight picture, but hit what I shot at, with one (the first) with the only light available was a tail light, and one headlight, with the shot being made in most likely under 10 seconds start to finish, and this is a guess-ta-meant. The entire ordeal according to radio logs lasted about 13 minutes, but ended somewhat abruptly.
I believe AtlLaw could possibly add to this firearms training spectrum, as I believe he once toted a badge before he went outlaw on us.

[mcwoodduck]

Being a Police range and tactical instructor for 18 1/2 of my 20 years of L.E. career I sadly will say that I haven't met many "well trained" LEOs on the street. I have met a bunch of AMAZINGLY TRAINED Swaters, and other tactical officers, but I have also met some ringers in that field.
As a general rule a police officer qualifies once, to twice a year, and the standards of qualification are set at a level where even the weaker ones qualify. Don't want to discriminate you know. I don't think you and I are as far apart as you might think, and I appreciate your patience with me, as many do not understand my blunt way of expression, but I suppose my 20 years in L.E. are partly responsible. I am not condemning the laser on a handgun, I am Cautioning that it is not a good idea to train in a combat mode with one, when seconds count.
A better way of putting it, would be to say: Use it for marksmanship in the way you would shoot bulls-eye targets, with the mental attitude of: I might have to use this particular skill to take a life also. I would more concentrate on my eye to hand coordination, and muscle memory skills as I am one of those officers whom used a handgun on two separate occasions one after midnight, and one at almost precisely midnight. On both occasions I Have no recollection of sight picture, but hit what I shot at, with one (the first) with the only light available was a tail light, and one headlight, with the shot being made in most likely under 10 seconds start to finish, and this is a guess-ta-meant. The entire ordeal according to radio logs lasted about 13 minutes, but ended somewhat abruptly.
I believe AtlLaw could possibly add to this firearms training spectrum, as I believe he once toted a badge before he went outlaw on us.

Dee,
As you stated you do not remember a sight picture.  I am sure you did have one.  You did what your training taught you.  Your brain did thousands of calulations, moved muscles and ligned up your sights with out you knowing.
Your Uncle has a Laser and as long as he continues to use it in his training and practice it will become part of his mussle memmory.
I think the laser could have potential as long as you train with it.  i think it needs to be used in conjunction with the sights.
As you said fights are going to be quick and trying to find that little red dot is going to take time you may not have.
I fear the over use of Technoligy rather than fundamentals.  If you rely on it and your battery is dead, so are you.
I can see the technoligy being an augmentation to the fundimentials and in building confidance to shoot faster and ways to manage recoil.
I have seen people use them, at first the laser will slow the person down trying to make the perfect hit and as they move slightly the dot jumps and they do not shoot. Trying to make all ten ring hits.  And as the laser bounces to the 9 or 8 ring the shooter will back off the trigger, once that shooter realizes any hit is a good hit the dot will jump more but the hits will keep comming. And while not all ten ring they are center mass.  The laser will build confidance in making hits and quickly.
I think you are right that the Laser will focus that tunnel vision and make it pin point.  but training often can limit this.  I think IDPA and tactical shoots at local clubs can help.  I think carrying a gun is like owning a race car.  If you don't practice with it you are a danger to everone around you as well as your self.

[AtlLaw]

I sadly will say that I haven't met many "well trained" LEOs on the street.

Very true from my experience.

I have met a bunch of AMAZINGLY TRAINED Swaters, and other tactical officers, but I have also met some ringers in that field.

Also very true.

As a general rule a police officer qualifies once, to twice a year, and the standards of qualification are set at a level where even the weaker ones qualify.

Yup!

I would more concentrate on my eye to hand coordination, and muscle memory skills

My philosophy exactly!   

[AtlLaw]

Shoot!     I have to finish this in a second post.

I remember the fellow who was the high shooter in my recruit class.  He was also the first member of my class to get into a gunshot exchange after graduation.  Now, hard as this may be to imagine, he emptied his service revolver, grabbed his second gun, a Browning Hi-Power, and finally hit the assailant with his last round from that weapon; in the hand!   

Now, that kinda tickled me since he had outshot me at the range!     Um,    not by much you understand... 

Anyway, that just reinforced what I already knew from my own experience, target shooting and gunfights are nothing alike!  If you are a Bullseye shooter you concentrate on sight alignment, breathing, finger placement and trigger pull and so on.  In a gunfight it all revolves around muscle memory and hand & eye coordination.  Hence, I believe, Dee's first two observations listed in my previous post.  The beat officer trains as a bullseye shooter - if he really "trains" at all - and the special unit officers who (continuously) train for armed confrontations.

I always felt that the handgun was a basic tool of a police officers trade.  It was inconceivable to me that an officer would not be proficient with such a tool.     Kinda like a carpenter who didn't know how to use a hammer.   

[AtlLaw]

Post #3... this jumping reply screen drives me nuts at times... 

Anyway, to me the lazer dot fit into the "bullseye" style of training and was therefore not well suited for an actual gunfight other then, as Dee said

in a more controlled fight, I could see their place.

.

I'm still gonna get one though... 

[The Pistoleer]

AtlLaw, I agree with everything you say.  Where the laser really shines, in my opinion, besides dim light, is in those incidents where you need to stick the gun over or around your cover. With a laser you don't need to expose as much of your head.  You can peek from one place while sticking the gun out of another.  If you see the dot you will hit there.

I have never had to defend myself with a handgun but have practiced point shooting for years and have done quite well with it.  I think the laser just adds another tool for the point shooter.

Pete

[Dee]

Pistoleer, while your peaking around that building to see your laser, I'm gonna step a few feet back from my cover, and I'm gonna run one down your wall, even if your across the street, and you'll never see me. If you've got a car between you and me, I'm gonna bounce one off the parking lot and get ya.
There are so many ways to use a pistol to fight with, that will never be discussed here, that I would never give you a shot at me with the laser, and you would find it difficult to hide from me and still return fire, with or without your laser. The only gadgets that I have ever found useful concerning pistols or revolvers, is magazines, and speed loaders, and I am very critical of some of the speed loaders.
If I am serious and committed to the fight, while your hiding, and fiddlin around with your laser, I'm going to be trying to find a shot on you, not posing for your next shot. TV and movies are as far away from reality as one can get. The fight starts, and most times ends, in seconds, with seldom more than 2 or 3 shots fired by either combatant. Statistically MOST shootings occur in low light, and at night. Physically! TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. Mind Set! DEVELOPE, DEVELOPE, DEVELOPE. Gadgets! Play
Now! I don't think I can add anything else to this topic. I have expended my opinions, training, "and experience", as far as I'm willing.

[The Pistoleer]

Dee, again I can't argue with you.  Fortunately most bad guys aren't well trained in the use of cover and tactics used in gun fighting.  Every month in the various NRA magazines "Armed Citizen" column where some little old man or lady with probably little or no training takes down a bad guy.  In those incidents I feel as if the laser is a definite aide.  We all know that most people who keep guns in their home have no training beyond someone showing them how load and maybe unload the gun.  I would venture to guess that the majority of CCW holders do very little training after they get their permit.

I am a 67 year old, Marine Vietnam vet who used to shoot 2 or 3 times a month or more in practice and  more in various action pistol competitions.  The past couple of years my health hasn't been good and I am lucky to get a chance to shoot a couple of times in the Summer.  I do dry fire my J-frame with the Crimson trace grips and it does help me with trigger control, flash sight picture and point shooting.

I will agree there is not real substitute for training but for most people it just isn't going to happen whether due to health, lack of interest or the expense.  For those people I think a laser can be a great help.

Pete

[mcwoodduck]

Dee, again I can't argue with you.  Fortunately most bad guys aren't well trained in the use of cover and tactics used in gun fighting.  Every month in the various NRA magazines "Armed Citizen" column where some little old man or lady with probably little or no training takes down a bad guy.  In those incidents I feel as if the laser is a definite aide.  We all know that most people who keep guns in their home have no training beyond someone showing them how load and maybe unload the gun.  I would venture to guess that the majority of CCW holders do very little training after they get their permit.

I am a 67 year old, Marine Vietnam vet who used to shoot 2 or 3 times a month or more in practice and  more in various action pistol competitions.  The past couple of years my health hasn't been good and I am lucky to get a chance to shoot a couple of times in the Summer.  I do dry fire my J-frame with the Crimson trace grips and it does help me with trigger control, flash sight picture and point shooting.

I will agree there is not real substitute for training but for most people it just isn't going to happen whether due to health, lack of interest or the expense.  For those people I think a laser can be a great help.

Pete

In the 70's in NYC the police were loosing gun fights to perp 3 to 1.  Someone commented that they wanted to hire the guy that is training the bad guys to train the police so it would at least be a 2 to 2. or turn it the other way.
It amazed me that one of the guys i used to shoot with is a Fugitive recovery guy, he had some of his team come out to a shoot, the shoot is 1/2 IDPA and 1/2 Steel challange.  The officers he brought out with him did not do well and were mad that they were not in the top 5 and never came back.  If my life depended on the tools around my belt, I would be shooting at three gun and tactical shoots when not on duty.
As I said the laser is a good training tool.  it is something to build confidance and mussle memmory.  It is not something to rely on.  Anything with a battery is nothing to be relied on. 
with the laser turned on all the time and the button part of your grip it would be just like a grip safety on a 1911.  Something that goes on as you grip the gun.
There are two schools here: 
1) Is law Enforcement that will have a stand up fight trying to capture the bad guy.  They will call or have already called for help on the radio once the shooting starts.
2) Is a Private citizen is looking for personal protection. 
If the fight moves to cover, Once the distance is great enough you are going to excape and move away from danger.  Most likely the bad guy is going to run as well and try to find easier prey.  If you think you are going to take the hostage shot and use the laser for that.... Proabably not.  If a bad guy is using a loved one as a shield they will spray you with lead, take what they can and leave before the police show up.

I can see where Dee and Altlaw see the laser as gadgets.  They were police and had to think like a police officers.
With everything they carried the last thing they want to add is more weight of a battery, and a gadget.
You adding a couple ounces to your J frame is no big deal as that and a cell phone are all you are going to carry, maybe a spare reload in a speed strip or speed loader.  But you are never going to have time to top off or reload in a fight.
On the same note I think Dee thinks that the little switch on the grip of grip mounted lasers needs to be fumbled with to turn on rather than being left on.
The combo laser / flash lights are a gadgets and in a situation you are never going to think to turn it on or want to take the time to turn it on.
I also see Dee and Altlaw's point that the laser is not going to make you a crack shot, and if you are going to just spend $400 on the gun it would be better to spend it on ammo and practice rather than a toy.  If you can afford both the practice and the laser as a training and confidance Booster.  great, but nothing is going to replace trigger time.