.358 Winchester wildcat

[indyeyedoc]

Hello all,
It sounds as though Indiana is going to lengthen their max accepted cartridge case length to 1.8 inches for use in rifles for deer season.  This is extending it from a previous length limit of 1.62 inches.  Idiotic, yes, but at least we are moving in the right direction.  In light of this pending change I am looking at chambering a rifle in a shortened version of .358 Winchester.  I plan on trimming the neck to .300" and trying to conserve as much powder capacity as possible.  It looks like I'll have to push the shoulder back by about 0.15".  Given this reduction in case capacity would anyone have an educated guess as to what kind of velocity reduction from normal .358 loadings I could expect.  The rifle will be built on either a turk 98 mauser or savage 10 action.  I plan on using trimmed 358 win dies.  If in the future Indiana allows rifles, unrestricted, I could simply chamber to full depth with a 358 reamer.
I suspect, given the short case and small shoulder, that "improving" the case would not help at all with regaining some of the lost velocity?
Any thoughts or input appreciated.
Thanks
 

[Bigeasy]

Welcome to the forum.  Lots of good advice here.  How about the Winchester Super Short Magnum in .358?  Its basically a WSSM case necked up to .358.  Trim length is 1.612.  180 grain bullet at approx. 2675 fps.  Google it, lots of info out there on it.  Not sure about the feeding thru a Mauser action, might want to read up on it.

Good luck

Larry

[indyeyedoc]

I'm pretty familiar with the 358 WSSM.  Just wanting to try something different.  Initially, my primary goal was to get a cartridge i could use with an action with a standard .473 bolt face.  I don't think the WSSM is ok with the turk
mauser action.
Thanks

[mcwoodduck]

Well there is a 44 Auto mag that is a 308 / 30-06 case cut to 44 mag length and a 429 projectile stuck in the end.
There is a 357 version of this.  357 Auto Mag.  Depending on the Year it is in COTW.
Since this is already done for you all you have to do is increase the length of the case to your max allowed and stick a 358 bullet in rather than a 357.  Dies are available all you hve to do is adjust them.
Other than that I would go with what Big Easy said.
From an earlier post I was trying to think of a 475 WSSM to douplicate 475Lin + out of a small bolt rifle.
Good luck.
I think it would be easier to get a short action amd make a 35 Remington if you want a bolt action.
With hand loads, and a bolt action you can get a lot out of the 35 Rem.

[Win 1917]

A shortened 358 is a neat idea. Like a 357 Herrett except on a different case.

On a standard boltface I can't think of anything that would be close to your max case length. A BR case would be easy to start from but that still quite a bit shorter than 1.8".

[Win 1917]

I think I found your cartridge, 35 IHMSA. I'm fiddling around with a 7x30 Waters Improved right now and this morning I just happened to be  comparing it to some other 7mm rounds used in handgun silhouette and looked at the case length of the 7mm IHMSA, 1.86". It's based on a 300 Savage and it was made in a bunch of different calibers including 35. When necked up to 35 the overall length would probably end up pretty close to 1.8".     

[indyeyedoc]

Win 1917,
Great! Do you know where I could find more info on it?  
Mark

Actually just found case dimensions online, really close to what I am after but more body taper than I would like,  I think the 358 win short would have a little more case capacity...not enough to matter though....

[243dave]

I've got a question you fellers can probably answer.  What if you took the 358win and trimmed it down to 1.8", would you have enough neck left to work with ??  I was just thinking it may work if a crimp is used.  Perhaps you could do it in a single-shot a bit easier.  Just a thought.   Dave 

[Win 1917]

I just measured a 308 case and at 1.8" and that's basically at the shoulder so that wouldn't work.

Do you know where I could find more info on it?

Not specifically and you're probably not going to find much on the internet about it. You'd have to find a knowledgeable IHMSA guy that was around when that series came out. You might try on the IHMSA website forum or on Specialty Pistols.com in the "steel shooting" forum. The only other place I could think of would be to contact SSK Industries and see if you can talk to JD Jones. I've never talked to him before but I understand he can be a little gruff on the phone. He's very knowledgeable though and has been an extremely prolific wildcatter for many years. If the 35 IHMSA doesn't work out he might have something else up his sleeve that would work.   

[Bigeasy]

Well, I'm not much of a wildcatter, but here is an idea-

A 30-06 case measures 1.948 inches to the beginning of the shoulder.  Take an '06 case, cut it down to the required 1.8 inches, giving you a cylindrical casing that will work with a standard bolt face / action.  Run it thru a set of forming dies to make your .35 cal. neck and shoulder.  Have a new barrel so chambered.  There are several reloading / ballistic programs out there that would give you a good, safe starting load, then work up slowly.  Name it the  ".358 IndyEyeDoc".

Larry

[243dave]

Win 1917,  I checked the measurements of the 308 and 358 and the 358 gives a bit more neck to work with than the 308 will.  A 358 if trimmed down to 1.8" will give a neck .149" long.  To put that in comparison consider a 7.62x25mm pistol it has a neck of .155" long and is feed thru a automatic pistol with no problems.  So is a short neck really such a big deal if a proper crimp is applied ??  I think a smooth bolt-action or a single-shot would do fine with such a short neck but I could be wrong.  I was just thinking what I would do if I lived in Indiana and didn't have the time and money to wildcat.  This is one option I would think about, a 35 rem would be a good canadate to neck trim only and have a legal round but it won't give 358 power or range.   Dave

[indyeyedoc]

Thanks for all the ideas everyone. 

243Dave-  Are you from Indiana?  I've had that same thought as well, trimming a 358 Win case to 1.8" would leave a shoulder of 1.5".  Is this enough neck?  I don't know.  Certainly is for single shot but I would be afraid of a bullet working loose in the magazine as the gun recoiled.  1.5" is the neck length on the 357 Bain and Davis so at least one 357 caliber cartridge uses it.  If it were enough it would sure make life easy for us Hoosiers.
As of right now I plan on making the neck .3" long which means I'll have to move the shoulder back .15". 

BigEasy - Your idea with the 30-06 brass is exactly what I've been doing.  Cut it down and crank it through a shortened 358 win die.  Works fine and sizes in one step.  But I realized how much easier it would be to start with 358 Win brass and just bump the shoulder back a bit if I wanted to lengthen the neck.  I do like the name, though!

I did find a .358 Bellm which is very close to what I want to do but is based on 444 Marlin case and is rimmed.

[Win 1917]

I think you're going in the right direction by trying to achieve a little longer neck than you'd get with just trimming. Here's a picture of a 35-06 JDJ with a .25"  neck. http://www.ammo-one.com/JDJ35-06Page.html

I was just thinking what I would do if I lived in Indiana and didn't have the time and money to wildcat.

I think there's lots of non-wildcats (or very simple wildcats) that would work fine especially if you get away from bolt actions. I'm hunting with a 357 Maximum and that fits the requirements and was very easy to get up and shooting with it.   

[jedman]

  One way you could shorten the .358 Win. to 1.800 would be to cut .100 off the bottom of the sizing die, that will move the shoulder back and trim .100 off the neck.  With a case with minimal body taper like the .358 removing .100 off the bottom will change the base diameter by around .0015 you should be able to work with that amount.   With a 35 Rem. you could go .060 off the bottom and .060 off the neck to get a 1.800 case length.    Jedman

Edit,   I didnt explain that quite right, Once you size the case with your shortened die and push the shoulder back by .100 or .060 then you need to remove what ever amount you then need to arrive at 1.800 off the neck.
 But the end result would be the same as removeing 50% off the bottom and 50% off the topend of the original configuration.   

[steve@357maximum.com]

I know that some of the wildcat rounds you guys are discussing have much more long range potential than the .357 Maximum, and I look forward to seeing some of the new developments, especially if the minimum case length is extended for Indiana rifle deer hunting. 

Having said that, I am really looking forward to deer hunting this year again with my Max.  180-200 grain bullets at 2000-2300 fps make a nice deer rifle out to 200 yards.  All of this without the requirement for special dies, reamers, or expensive rifles.  It really amazes me what kind of accuracy can come from these rifles considering it is a straight wall pistol cartridge. 

Good luck to all of you deer hunters.

Good Shooting,

Steve Cutter (357 Maximum.com)

[Spector]

We in Indiana are still stuck with the 1.625'' case length this year I believe.  The 1.8'' case length will not take effect until next year as they are just holding public hearings on it and other proposed rules changes.

Last year a friend expanded a 7.62x54 case to 40 caliber, pushed the shoulder back and trimed to 1.625''.  I tried to do the same thing in 35 caliber, but with no luck the few times I tried.   I did make one in 44 caliber that looked good. 

I wanted 35 caliber because it did not look like it would reqire any magazine modifications in order to feed as a repeater with a 1.625'' case length using a spitzer bullet..  In a 1.8'' length case it would require magazine mods, but 35 or 40 caliber it would not require any mod to the cartridge interupter though. 

In a single shot though much more is possible.  Since Timney has begun manufacturing triggers with safetys for Mosin Nagant rifles they may become more popular as low cost platforms to build on...........Mike

[mcwoodduck]

With the limit being 1.6" this year and maybe going to 1.8" at some point the Idea of the 357 Auto Mag may be the way to go.
Later as the case length increases all you would have to do is ream the chamber longer.
The 357 Auto Mag
35- 300 Savage
358 Win
and 35 Whelan.
are all the same rim base and bullet diameter the length of that case is what is different.
Any of these can work in a Mauser action.  You may have to make a new follower an spring if you need to block the magizine, but that can be un done easily as you grow the case as the rules change.

 

[bcp]

Trim the 300 Savage just a tiny bit and neck it up.  Length is about 1.87.

Use the 357 Herrett.  Case is just under 1.8.  Make it with 30 Rem cases for a rimless version.

Bruce

[Bull45cal]

Indyeyedoc,

     I'm sure you've thought about this before, but listening to your comments, I thought I'd interject the .35-284 idea.  Here is a drawing showing what I mean.  By doing this, you can increase case capacity without having to change the bolt face.  Also, PTG might would grind down a .284 Win reamer for no extra charge.  This is just simply pushing the shoulder back @ 40 degrees, and necking up, while keeping the same case taper.  The new Savage Edge would be a real good platform for your project, seeing as the barrels can be swapped by you, and that would be all you would have to do to get it running this cartridge.  At $267+tax at Wal-Mart, it is hard to beat for a test rifle.  I think you can buy replacement detachable box magazines from Savage in different calibers that are "hot swappable."  Shilen will produce the barrel ready to install, if you were to supply the reamer.  Just take a look. 

Shane

[Drilling Man]

Well, I'm not much of a wildcatter, but here is an idea-

A 30-06 case measures 1.948 inches to the beginning of the shoulder.  Take an '06 case, cut it down to the required 1.8 inches, giving you a cylindrical casing that will work with a standard bolt face / action.  Run it thru a set of forming dies to make your .35 cal. neck and shoulder.  Have a new barrel so chambered.  There are several reloading / ballistic programs out there that would give you a good, safe starting load, then work up slowly.  Name it the  ".358 IndyEyeDoc".

Larry

  you will have to ream the neck too, as the case necks will be quite thick.

  DM

[mcwoodduck]

The other day I re-read this and was looking in Cgts of the world.
I think the 7.62X39 case fits your bill.  To a tee.
Just expand to .358.

[indyeyedoc]

Thanks for all the ideas.  Bull45cal, I've considered necking up the 284 as you suggested and may still go that route but would like to avoid making a reamer.  Going with the 358 Win allows me to use standard dies (shortened) and reamer.  But I read that the proposed changes to Indiana law have been stopped so I am going to put this project on hold for now.  Sounds like we're stuck with the 1.62 cartridge length for at least another season.

[Dinny]

Sounds like we're stuck with the 1.62 cartridge length for at least another season.

That's a bummer! Oh well, we can still use the venerable .357 Maximum in our Handi rifles to 150+yds. Indyeyedoc, I would also recommend speaking to Bryan from BFG Design, if it has been or could be done, he prolly knows all about it.

http://www.bfgcartridges.com/

Thanks, Dinny