Author Topic: Ideal revolver throat for cast  (Read 2352 times)

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Offline pschweik

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Ideal revolver throat for cast
« on: August 18, 2010, 12:08:58 PM »
Hi Veral,
I'm building a Ruger Bisley in 45LC.  I plan to shoot your 280 gr WFN.  I'm ready to machine the barrel and would value your thoughts on the best dimensions and best type of throat. The cylinder/bore allignment is good.  I understand that the forcing cone should be a lot smaller than you see on factory guns.  I've read that a Taylor throat is very good, but have no experience with them.  So, do you prefer a Taylor throat or a regular forcing cone? If a forcing cone, what angle do you think is best?  It seems to me that a regular forcing cone shouldn't be much larger than groove diameter, just a little bigger to ensure the bullet slides into the barrel without shaving.

Thanks, Paul

Offline Veral

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Re: Ideal revolver throat for cast
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 07:13:04 PM »
  The most accurate revolver I ever shot was an old S&W  military and police, I believe they were called.  The Barrel had just a tiny and quite abrupt bevel so it wouldn't shave lead.  I never found a load that didn't shoot well in it.

  The huge throats being put into modern revolvers allow cast bullets to swell way oversize than have to be sized back down, and it isn't good for accuracy.  In fact if someone ignorantly loads very soft lead bullets to high pressures in them it has split the barrel and frame on quite a few guns.

  I would put maybe a two degree included angle in there, and do it on the lathe, after zeroing the bore to be sure it was running concentric.  I wouldn't cut the diameter at the start more than .010 over groove diameter.  Do your boring with a razor sharp boring bar, then polish the leade taper with emery paper till it glistens. Of coarse the stub would be single point threaded in the same setup, with threads that were free enough to allow the frame to screw on without too much force, and with the bare hands.  With the barrel stub threaded, length can be determined.  Ideal cylinder gap is .002 on every caliber from 22 up to 44, so I don't see reason to believe 45 would be different.  With a .002 gap, any lead spray you might get will blow out easily, but most important is the sound you'll hear.  This size gap lets just enough powder gases out to  soften the muzzle blast.  Less gap and blast from the muzzle will be increased, while more gap and blast from the gap will increase.  At .006 gap and larger, the blast will give me a headache, even with top quality hearing muffs on.
  To keep the barrel from ever loosening, locktite it with the permanent type.  It will never move, and will require considerable heat if you ever want to remove it.    If you torque the barrel in like the manufactures do, you'll get the typical bore constriction at the threads.  The above eliminates it.

  Ideal cylinder throat diameter  is .001 over groove if you intend to shoot mild loads exclusively, .002 if you want to run it at full power a lot.

  Understand that ANY cutting, drilling, tapping on the outside of the barrel will change the inside in some way, so plan on minor lapping after you have the whole thing screwed together.  If you have the skill to point it right, you'll have a precision shooter like you never believed possible.
Veral Smith

Offline paulschweik

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Re: Ideal revolver throat for cast
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 11:09:58 AM »
Hey Veral,

What a great answer!  Thanks for all the details.  I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us.

I'm going to be shooting two loads both with the 280 gr WFN.  One will be a gentle load at about 1000 FPS, the other will be a  full power 1300 FPS load.  Do you think I can get away with using plain bases, or would you recommend a GC mold instead?

Thanks, Paul

Offline Veral

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Re: Ideal revolver throat for cast
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2010, 07:59:14 PM »
  1300 fps is certainly adaquate power for any animal on the american continent, under any condition, but it is definately not a full power load.  Full power will be 1450 to 1500 fps, and if you are using LBT lube, gas checks will not be needed with your ideal spec gun, with those heaviest loads.  Rugers are very strong, and the gun will handle far more power than that without damage.  The record I heard of was done by probably the most knowledgable pistol smith in the world, who loaded my 45 325 gr WFN, WITH GAS CHECK, to some over 1900 fps.  The shots were fired behind a baracade, pulling the trigger with a string, because, like I said, this guy is smart, not stupid.  But he prooved the gun is strong.  So we can feel safe with powerful loads in them.  That was in colt brass, and I believe Bisely frame, but the black hawks have the same strength.
Veral Smith

Offline paulschweik

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Re: Ideal revolver throat for cast
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 11:00:07 AM »
Thanks.  I wasn't sure that I could push a load that hard without gas checks.  I'd rather not use them if I don't have to.

Alright, last question, I'm going to order two molds, one for the 280WFN, the other a 400 grain LFN for a 45 cal rifle.  I'll send you a chamber/throat slug on this one. The cartridge is the 45 American, it's a 458 Win Mag shortened to 2", basically a 45-70 that will feed in bolt actions.  I plan to hold the velocity to 1600 FPS, per your recommendations.  Should I get this mold with a gas check, or will it work plain base also?

Thanks, Paul

Offline Veral

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Re: Ideal revolver throat for cast
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 07:18:32 PM »
  If your bore is nice and smooth, and straight, and it can easily be with a bit of lapping if necessary, if the bullets are 20 bhn or harder, and if LBT lube is used, you can get 1600 fps real easy.  If you shoot it in hot weather like over 90 deg F, and shoot quite a few shots rapidly so the barrel heats up, you'll probably get some leading, but if the shots are timed enough so the barrel doesn't get hotter than you can hold with your hand, you should have no problems at all with pb.  It will be about 4 cents cheaper per shot for the bullet, which will go quite a ways into the powder cost.
Veral Smith

Offline pschweik

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Re: Ideal revolver throat for cast
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 07:31:15 PM »
Thanks again.  It is a real pleasure to me to put together something that is right and works really well.  I enjoy building and using guns and I surely appreciate your help and expertise.

Regards, Paul