Author Topic: Pricing cast bullets? (Read 1271 times)

The Shrink · « **on:** December 03, 2003, 01:10:07 AM »

Esteemed board

Let me first say that I have never had any intention of selling nay of the bullets I make.

Now I have the MAV 6 cavity mold for 44-40, the only bullet for this caliber with an adequate lube groove and a limited special order that may or may not be re-ordered.

I have a guy who shoots Cowboy and wants me to make him 500/month. I can do this, but have literally no idea what an appropriate price would be for doing this, as I haven't bought a cast bullet in over 10 years.

Any suggestions for a reasonable price?

wener · « **Reply #1 on:** December 03, 2003, 02:17:40 AM »

$15 per 500 is what i charge for 44-40,,,,,wayne the bullet maker

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #2 on:** December 03, 2003, 12:57:05 PM »

as werner will tell you you aint going to get rich casting bullets. Figure in the time to cast and the alloy you use $15 for 500 is giving them away! I tried it for about a month and gave it up. I figured i was making about $10 an hour once i casted and sized and boxed them up and that was figuring the lead was free!

The Cast Bullet Kid · « **Reply #3 on:** December 03, 2003, 01:20:49 PM »

HHHMMM. How long is a piece of string?
First thing to decide is what is your time worth.
Then, assuming you charge for your time and the alloy used and not for things live electricity, depreciation of equipment etc you multiple it out.
EG:
You can probably do 2 pours per minute with the 6 cavity mould once everything is hot. That's 12 bullets a minute or 720 hour.
If you charge out at $20.00 hour then divide this by 720 for 2.78 cents each for labour.
Add the cost per bullet for alloy and your there.
Now, is your rate competitive with the market?
Are you going to size and lube?
Do you sort them for defects?

The Shrink · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2003, 01:04:31 AM »

Kid

The only sorting I will be doing is as I cast, tossing back any that are obviously not good. He's sizing and lubing.

Since 2.78 labor assumes everything goes well ([/u]not my experience), that should be rounded up to 2.80 cents or such. That makes labor $14.00/500. That would put a price of $16 or so adequate to cover my expences and provide a tiny profit.

I'm not doing this for the profit, but MAV had better do another order relatively soon, I don't want to do this for years!

Werner

Do you have the MAV bullet? Can he get them from you? This is the one with the single huge lube groove, adequate for BP even in rifle length barrels, hopefully.

wener · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2003, 02:53:45 AM »

the moulds i have for 44-40 are magma, most everything else i hand cast. 44-40 is a good seller at the gunshows but i always put on smokeless lube unless spmeone calls for the other!

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2003, 03:40:38 AM »

It's illegal to make bullets for sale without the appropriate licence. This is a good out if you don't wanna do it. If you wanna do it, you can explain that you cannot sell them, but you will give them away.

If the fellow you are dealing with is worth a damn, he will make a concrete demonstration of his appreciation. Quart of Bushmills is always nice, as are a couple of buckets of WW. If he's a mite slow on the uptake, you just don't get around to making any more bullets until he figgers it out.

Done right, it keeps you on the right side of the law and gets you a better price than you would dare set.

The Shrink · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2003, 06:47:34 PM »

Does that apply to components too? I thought it only applied to ammunition. That is, the complete loaded round.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2003, 11:44:52 PM »

I too was under the impression that a cast bullet was legal to sell just loaded ammo required a license. After all its just lead and its seems that theyd be hard pressed to tell you that its anything different then selling bulk lead made into ingots.

J.W.Neely · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2003, 11:52:57 PM »

In the world we live in now, I don't think loading boolits, or even casting boolits for someone else is a good thing, you never know who will do what with them. If something happens with one of their loads, the trial lawyers will be looking for anyone and everyone to come after.

Castaway · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2003, 06:35:03 AM »

I can barely keep up with my own needs by casting. I'd try another route. I'd invite him over, show him what's involved and then happen to have a Midway catelog handy so he could order what he needs to do it himself. If he really wants that particular bullet enough, he can make the committment for himself. It's one thing to cast a few and give them to a buddy for hunting, but 500/month can get to be a drag.

The Shrink · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2003, 07:34:47 AM »

I agree, and will talk to him about it when we finally meet. The problem is that this mold and bullet design was a single order of either 25 or 50 from Lee and they are all gone. Unless MAV orders more, he's out of luck on getting his own mold.

Castaway · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2003, 07:38:47 AM »

Sell it to him this way. Even if he has to pay a special order price for the mould from Lee, after that, and a few more dollars for equipment, he gets free bullets! Better yet, he can claim he made the bullets himself.

The Shrink · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2003, 09:22:20 AM »

Nope, can't even do it that way. On special order molds Lee makes they destroy the cutter after making the order. I believe that they make it out of a softer metal, thus can't guarantee the same size cavity after so many are cut.

MAV will have to make a new order at a minimun I believe of 50, maybe 25, for anyone that doesn't have one of these to get one. I believe that MAV holds the rights to the design, but even if He doesn't and I send a bullet to Lee and they make a cutter legally from that, I don't want to have to sell the rest of the minimum order, 'cause I'd have to pay Lee up front. It's not my business, that's why I've said MAV will have to do it.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2003, 12:07:39 PM »

Lee lathe cuts their moulds on CNC equipment. You want one mould, they will make one mould for the price of the mould plus $100 setup charge. They waive the setup charge on orders of 25 or more. That's where the minimum order idea comes from.

I don't have a clue as to whether anyone has a design copyright on a particular bullet, but it strikes me as wildly unlikely. Be very hard to design a unique bullet that could properly be awarded a design copyright or a patent.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #15 on:** December 06, 2003, 12:20:11 PM »

Lloyd, the BATF site was down when I went to refresh my memory, but the legal issue is manufacturing ammunition as a business without a license. In the usual overreaching BATF way, they construe any one occasion as "as a business". I am reasonably certain they construe casting bullets as "manufacturing" and any component as "ammunition".

To the legal mind, selling bullets someone else has made is wholly different from making bullets for sale.

I could be wrong. Been years since I read the regs. But I am sure enough that I won't even take postage reimbursement when I send someone samples.

Thing to remember about BATF is that even if they can't convict you, they can bankrupt you.

warf73 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2003, 08:00:08 PM »

I can't speak for "Joe public" cast bullet production and then selling of said product.

But I do sell cast bullets (E & E Bullets) and condom bullets (Nosler, Combined Technology, and Winchester) as a side business over the internet.

I'm not breaking any laws buy doing this. If it where illegal I would be in jail as I have a tax number and whole sellers license threw the state I live in. It had to be stated what I was selling in the paper work I filled out for my tax exemption.

If all things go well by mid February I will be getting 5 more bullet manufactures.

Oldfeller · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2003, 08:44:32 PM »

LeftoverDJ,

It's tough to read some items sometimes and still stay mum. One of these days I'll eventually master the nack myself. Nicely done, though.

Oldfeller

The Shrink · « **Reply #18 on:** December 14, 2003, 10:59:53 AM »

I've been reading BATF regs online and two things stand out. 1: in the definitions it is clear that bullets and other components are included in the definition of "ammunition" 2: Everything I've read so far relates to interstate commerce.

If there is no interstate commerce, ie I'm making bullets in a private arrangement between me and one other person, no open selling or making anything available to anyone else, and it's all in state, do BATF regs apply?

Wayne the Shrink

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #19 on:** December 14, 2003, 01:10:42 PM »

Wayne, to the legal mind, there is no such thing as "no interstate commerce involved". Some time or the other, the alloy moved in interstate commerce, the moulds, and the guns used to shoot them.

The chances of getting prosecuted on a deal such as the one you describe are remote, but it could be done. Even if you won, you'd be broke. When they're out to get you, there is nothing to which the ATF will not stoop.

The Shrink · « **Reply #20 on:** December 18, 2003, 01:12:28 AM »

Esteemed Board

Here's an update from what I'f found out. I talked to a guy at BATF and he told me that I will need a Manufacturers License, at a cost of $30 for three years and a background check. Big wow. Then he told me that they would look for a business license. I think that the City of Virginia Beach will waive that on the basis of dollar volume. How they will tell that to ATF I don't know.

He also told me that the ATF is now split, and that I would have to check with Treasury to find out about the tax consequences. At about $16/mo I don't think this will be significant.

I can see a glitch if ATF wants a business license and the City says none is necessary. All they may tell ATF is that none is active, without stating minimum criteria. I may be in danger of falling throught this particular crack.

Wayne the Shrink

Louis Farrugia · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2004, 02:08:53 AM »

HI WENER
I SAW YOUR POST RE MOULDS IS IT JUST THE MOULDS THAT ARE MAGMA OR YOU HAVE THE MACHINE AS WELL IF SO ,ARE YOU INTERESTED IN SELLING IT ,BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE TO BUY ONE.
OR IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS , MAGMA CASTER
BEST REGARDS
LOUIS FARRUGIA
FROM MALTA EUROPE .

Quote from: wener

the moulds i have for 44-40 are magma, most everything else i hand cast. 44-40 is a good seller at the gunshows but i always put on smokeless lube unless spmeone calls for the other!

wener · « **Reply #22 on:** January 25, 2004, 03:33:33 AM »

i have the machine but im not selling anything at this time! I can't think of anyone at this time right now but if you could get a copy of the gun list there might be someone in there selling out a bullet buisness!