EPA Proposal to Ban Lead Bullets, Shot, and Sinkers

[Swampman]

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html?docketDetail%3FR=EPA-HQ-OPPT-2010-0681#docketDetail?R=EPA-HQ-OPPT-2010-0681

[Pat/Rick]

Yep, failed in Washington state. The sick anti gunners will keep trying to strip Americans of their God given rights. Letters sent. Even if this junk legislation goes through, I will not comply. The EPA does not have the Constitutional authority to pass legislation. Junk laws have been tearing america down. It is time that all people learn about jury nullification. Destroy junk laws. Win America back. Do not surrender you arms!  Ammunition is included that.

[MGMorden]

Saw this a while back.  I'm not gonna lie, it's got a good chance of passing.  It'll pretty much be the end of target shooting if it does (maybe - I wonder if lead bullets would still be allowed at indoor pistol ranges?).  Most of us use precious few bullets actually hunting - I know I could afford all copper bullets for that, but it would destroy recreational shooting outside of that.  Shooting would have to have a specific purpose behind it (ie, hunting) to be worthwhile anymore.

As without almost all bad legistlation, if it fails this time they'll keep trying and trying again until eventually it passes and we're then stuck with it forever - very few laws are ever removed from the books.  That's why law-making is in my mind the greatest threat to our freedoms.  At first congress was needed to make laws and such.  Afterall the country started with only basic legislation.  A blank slate for the most part.  They've been at it for over 230 years now though.  These days they're mostly just creating more headache for the population in an effort to appear busy and serve some purpose.  IMHO it's equivalent to keeping a full time construction crew in your home 10 years after it was finished.  They were instrumental in building that house, but that long after it's built aside from a simple repair here and there they have no business messing with it anymore.   If the contract (the Constitution) still requires that you get paid and be there then so be it, but keep your hands to yourself and stay out of the way . . .

[southernutah]

Utah fish and game sent me a form for a rebate of $25 on a box of non lead bullets. We have the POS condors here. They are just over rated buzzards that cant' fend for themselves.They were planted in AZ and summer about 40 miles from me. They claim that they are dieing from eating bullets in gut piles and Utah jumped on the band wagon claiming proven cases. It's all hear say with no accual proven cases. Not going to go for the rebate as i don't want to show i conform to their BS.  I believe for now they just want to ban hunting bullets but they won't stop there.

[crustylicious]

Remember how many people quit driving when they took the lead out of gas and the price went up?
If it's good for the enviroment, it's good for me!

[Swampman]

Screw the environment.

[-Shaggy-]

Remember how many people quit driving when they took the lead out of gas and the price went up?
If it's good for the enviroment, it's good for me!

Dang ol' environment already has a lot of lead in it. You do know where lead comes from, right?

[jimster]

Remember how many people quit driving when they took the lead out of gas and the price went up?
If it's good for the enviroment, it's good for me!

I reckon you can stop shooting lead now then if that's what you really think, you don't need a law passed to do what you think is right and good.
Kinda like folks who say we need to pay more taxes, but they are not sending in extra cash on their own are they? Nope, not one of them are. Must be they are not all that serious after all.

I'll always shoot cast bullets for the rest of my life, and I had to feed an older motorcycle a lead additive some years back, you can buy lead additives for your un-leaded gas for the old stuff.  I would think my firearms will always need a lead diet too.  

And why is it that if a conservative wants to stop using lead, they just do, but if a whiny progressive wants to stop using it, they have to pass a law for everybody...and then they wait for the law to be passed before THEY do anything. Never could figure out that mind set.  

[Pat/Rick]

Why are they not going after the batteries in vehicles? Has there ever been a case of lead poisoning from eating game that was taken with a bullet or shot? Has a shooting range ever been closed down because it was listed as a hazmat site? Is the lead from your bullets and shot that does get deposited in the wild anymore harmful than the natural occuring lead deposits found throughout this nation. Global warming scam was founded on junk science, I have a hunch the same thing is going on here. College educations and some with doctorates that shout about this are no more than those who attempt to ban hunting and firearms in general.

[nomosendero]

Is there a reason that anyone would be surprised at this?

[wreckhog]

My club was melting lead (to pour into molds) in the same ovens they used for catering. Had access to sailboat keels, ie loads of lead. I quit because I thought they were doing something dangerous.

[crustylicious]

It's illegal to use lead shot for duck hunting because it was scientifically proven to be killing ducks (2-5%). Plenty still hunt ducks
I'd like my grandchildren to be able to see a condor. If it's proven that lead bullets are a health risk to them I'm happy to use other bullets.
And yes lead does occur naturally.  Naturally occuring lead is found in ores bound to other elements. It's only after mining manufacturing and purifing that it becomes a health risk.
Batteries are the major contributor to the lead heath risks. Who knows they may be next.
Quite a few indoor ranges were closed back in the 90s due to presence of lead.

[Swampman]

There are no lead health risk.  Mankind has eaten out of lead glazed dishes, pewter vessels, and drank from lead pipes since the Romans where in charge.  It's the same thing with asbestos.  Just made up crap.  I have a degree in Safety & Environmental.

[wganz]

Sounds like time to declare condors as vermin and clean them out like coyotes. 

[wreckhog]

There are no lead health risk.  Mankind has eaten out of lead glazed dishes, pewter vessels, and drank from lead pipes since the Romans where in charge.  It's the same thing with asbestos.  Just made up crap.  I have a degree in Safety & Environmental.

Seriously, no cancer from Asbestos? That would make alot of lawyers cry.

[DDelle338]

 Before any action is made to ban lead bullets and shot there needs to be PROOF beyond any doubt that the harm to wildlife is actually happening and caused by the lead projectiles. For instance, show me the 20 million doves killed by ingesting lead shot. As a matter of fact, produce 20 dead doves that have died as a result of ingestion lead shot. I know that is not possible because these numbers are not fact. They are just an outright lie, made up by some "waco greenie". The scenarios themselves are just imaginary. Demand proof before acting on some wild theory.
 Go to the site, in the memorandum to open docket for public access section click on the comment due and post your comment.

[jimster]

I used to chew on toy lead soldiers when I was a kid, just made my teeth harder.   

[Swampman]

There are no lead health risk.  Mankind has eaten out of lead glazed dishes, pewter vessels, and drank from lead pipes since the Romans where in charge.  It's the same thing with asbestos.  Just made up crap.  I have a degree in Safety & Environmental.

Seriously, no cancer from Asbestos? That would make alot of lawyers cry.

The type of asbestos used in the US was very rarely the type that caused a problem.

Demand proof before acting on some wild theory.

You mean like they did on "Global Warming"?  

[gypsyman]

Just another reason to find somebody that will cut the funding to the epa. Just like the federal board of education. A bunch of college boys and girls with jobs that don't amount to a hill of bat crap. All this should be done on the local level. Send money to DC so that college educated idiots can have a none productive job being the nerd they were in college. gypsyman

[MGMorden]

A bunch of college boys and girls with jobs that don't amount to a hill of bat crap. All this should be done on the local level. Send money to DC so that college educated idiots can have a none productive job being the nerd they were in college

And people wonder why we're sliding down the tubes as far as progress goes?  America: about the only country in the world where people are ridiculed for being intelligent.  The anti-intellectual idiocy that has sprung up in the last 30-40 years is just insane.  The Founding Fathers - the men who drafted the constitution and created the very framework of this country - were by and large college educated.  It wasn't founded by a bunch of "good ol boys" wearing flannel.

Understand: the TV that you watch in the evening, the computer that you just posted that non-sense with, and most every other bit of technology in your life is a result of those types of people.  Indeed just about everything that's gotten you to this point from the point long in the past when our ancestors were throwing spears at our food and grunting - all that was brought to you by so called "nerds". 

Anyone who hasn't seen the film Idiocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy), I highly suggest you take a peak.

[beerbelly]

 Asbestos is the biggest scam ever perpetrated! The lawyers saw a cash cow , got a class action law suite and the scam was on! I would bet not one out of five thousand in this lawsuit has any health problems related to  Asbestos!
  They hired a few crooked doctors, ran thousands of people through a phony, three minuet exam and stole BILLIONS. Joe Blow on the street was getting a few bucks and was happy. The lawyers were making BILLIONS.
    There should be no such thing as a class action law suite.
                                Beerbelly
                                                                                                                                                         

[crustylicious]

Just remembered I was in Mt. Vernon last year. They have Washingtons false teeth on display. They were made with lead! In the face of irrefutable anecdotal evidence that lead makes you great, I'm going to have to retract my statments.
I'm not dumb, I'm just slow. My apologies.

[MGMorden]

Just remembered I was in Mt. Vernon last year. They have Washingtons false teeth on display. They were made with lead! In the face of irrefutable anecdotal evidence that lead makes you great, I'm going to have to retract my statments.
I'm not dumb, I'm just slow. My apologies.

They're not completely constructed of lead.  They were made of various materials including gold, ivory, lead, human, and animal teeth.  There are a ton of factors involved with calling something a non issue - how much lead was involved, how often were they worn, and for how long they were worn before his death.

Not saying I think that this EPA ban is good (afterall, lead's natural state came from the dirt - it doesn't hurt to put it back there), but proper scientific study doesn't come from making quick judgements like "George Washington's fake teeth were lead so obviously it's fine to eat the stuff!!!".  That's called anecdotal evidence, and is worthless.  You might as well claim that car crashes can't be fatal because I was once in one and I came out of it just fine.  To properly find out if something has an effect on something else, you have to establish a proper experiment with a control group and an group with some variable and then check for data trends.  Few things in the world are black and white.

[SHOOTALL]

It's illegal to use lead shot for duck hunting because it was scientifically proven to be killing ducks (2-5%). Plenty still hunt ducks
I'd like my grandchildren to be able to see a condor. If it's proven that lead bullets are a health risk to them I'm happy to use other bullets.
And yes lead does occur naturally.  Naturally occuring lead is found in ores bound to other elements. It's only after mining manufacturing and purifing that it becomes a health risk.
Batteries are the major contributor to the lead heath risks. Who knows they may be next.
Quite a few indoor ranges were closed back in the 90s due to presence of lead.

Lead paint is the highest risk to humans .Keep in mind as for humans its humans under 6 that are mostly effected . Also when lead shot was banned lead in gas was banned and DDT was banned . It has been proven DDT had little effect on birds but the loss of its use contributed to 1000's dieing from diese caused by insects that the DDT could have killed. Most ranges mine the lead Skeet ranges etc . If the cost could be justifyed other type ranges would follow . Shame we are prone to knee jerk reactions. As far as scintific proof - get real just like global warming ? hum they put out what they think will farther their cause. As a note do ya'll realize lead paint for commerical use is still not banned ? So all those paint chips that get into the sewer systen get into the streams , think any birds injest um ? This whole thing is sloppy at best .

[gypsyman]

MGMORDEN, you are correct. The country was founded by educated people. One big difference, they still had common sense. It's absent in most dept.'s of government now days. It's not the blue collar worker that has put this county into the mess it's in now. It's the college educated,no common sense person that has put us where it's at. Lets ban everything to make the world safe. Tell that to the gang bangers on the street when they beat you death with a lead pipe. Oops, sorry, the lead pipe has been replaced by PVC.
At least 1/2, if not more of the federal govt. should be fired, and put into the private sector. Let them go to work for a company that has to live within it's means. It's obvious that the Fed's have no concept of this. Let's keep hiring, and funding, even thou their how many trillions in debt? How soon is gas rationing going to go into effect, to save the enviroment. Don't worry, the fed's will put food on your table, no need for you to own a car to go to the grocery store. Public transportation(that's spelled federally funded!) will take you back and forth to work. Their working on health care now, even thou it doesn't look good for passage, but they'll keep pushing. MGMORDEN, I know I've stepped on your toes before, because you work for the govt. But, you should look where blame belongs. And, it's not on the average working joe, it's on the fed's and big business. And, I'll bet ya, there all run by college boys and girls. gypsyman

[gypsyman]

MGMORDEN, just reread your post. You are correct on the 'puter and tv, and all the advancements this country, and college educated people have contributed. ALL, private industry. Not govt. employees. Unless you want to count govt. subsidies to big business, which is another shell game. gypsyman

[MGMorden]

MGMORDEN, I know I've stepped on your toes before, because you work for the govt. But, you should look where blame belongs. And, it's not on the average working joe, it's on the fed's and big business. And, I'll bet ya, there all run by college boys and girls. gypsyman

Yes, I do happen to work for the government (not the federal government), and yes, I am college educated.  That's pretty much irrelevant though.  My job is to administrate the computer systems (maintain data and write software essentially) that bills property taxes.  The absolute largest expense that we entail is running and maintaining the sheriff's department.  In a distant second place?  Road maintenance.  I do my job because it's work, and someone has to do it (afterall, the roads and law enforcement are pretty basic required services - we're in the middle of rural SC - a very heavily conservative state - public services here are just your basic level stuff). 

My stance is on the ever growing propensity in this country to throw around "college boys" or "nerds" as some sort of mark of shame as if intelligence and/or education is to be looked down upon.  The whole "pick on the nerd" thing that is common in so many schools here is virtually unheard of in other parts of the world (other parts of the world that are starting to dominate in science and technology I might add).  Here, too many are trying to "keep it real" (aka real dumb).  Some kids actively try to make sure that their grades aren't TOO good to make sure that they don't loose popularity over it.

This is a recent phenomenon (within the last few decades), and the dumbing down of America is indeed a HUGE part of the mess we're in.  People who care more about who's on the cover of The National Enquirer than about who's running for office.  People who would rather sit down and watch American Idol than to watch the news.  Kids who would rather go to the shopping mall than read a book.  Idiots who take out a loan for a $200k house whilst only making $30k per year. 

I mean hell just look at letters written by common soldiers during the civil war.  These were just run of the mill soldiers but their writing reads like POETRY compared to the scribble that passes for communication these days.  We're fast becoming a nation of idiots, and it's by and large due to public's perception that education is somehow "uncool".  We don't just accept ignorance, we CELEBRATE it!

[SHOOTALL]

MGMorden, In many places the college grads bring it on themselves . Here those who went to VMI all act a certian way they stick togather even when one is wrong . I admire their team effort but it brings many to dislike them. Many from there end up in construction and to a man feel if they get in your face and yell they will get their way if they are correct or not. I know this for a fact as i have been toe to toe with several of them . Then there are the schools that believe they are better than all other schools . In other countries and even in this country not so long ago most educated men were able to communicate to other men on their level. Today if you are not a college grad or in some cases from the same school they have no time for you. When the elite and educated get the attitude they are better it opens the door for hate.

[Swampman]

Fox News article...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/27/conservationists-target-lead-ammunition-fishing-tackle/

[Pat/Rick]

I personally worked at a global manufacturing company where we finally had to have liaison from the other departments sit with the engineers for design review and cost reduction seminars. Over, poorly, and junk engineering brought this about. People trying to reinvent the wheel. I was the liaison from the fabrication dept. And yes there are folks who design it however, in my experience both in construction and fabrication, most engineers and architects pretty much need their hands held. The trouble with most engineers today is that they learn from someone who learned from someone who went to college and have no real world experience,i.e., common sense. Companies around the USA are finding this to be more true as time goes along and it was discussed at length where I worked. Society in general is starting to reap the rewards of the entitlement . "You can be anything you want johnny,you're just as good as anybody else", that coupled with kids sports teams that will not keep score or change rules because "Everybodies a winner" is pure Bravo Sierra.And it comes from our educational system. NOT all teachers buy into the crap. But yes there are a few folks who have the ability to be Drs. and such. What is that ability? It's memory. The ability to memorize detailed instruction. Some got it, some don't. Its memory, not intelligence, that erroniously defines intelligence. If some of the higher folks can remove an anyeurism and not change oil in their car, well, I guess they're not so intelligent after all are they. How I see it anyway.