ISLAM PERMITS LYING.

[wareagleguy]

This is why I believe everyone would be much better off if the were no religion at all.

[beerbelly]

ISLAM PERMITS LYING

Most people trying to control you and take your rights away permits lying. For instance the police right here in the USA. They are permited to lie to you but it is aganist the law ffor you to lie to them!
                          Beerbelly

[ironglow]

Luke 15: 1-7
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'”

Seems to me that people are pissing on Gods lost sheep before they are found.  
My X-wife was in the jewelry business for years.  The company was owned and operated by Muslims from Kuwait.  They were pretty nice guys and definitely knew how to throw a Christmas party, which they actually called the "Christmas Party," unlike my former Corporate American company.    I never noticed any bomb building materials and they treated my wife and I with dignity and respect.  We weren't "friends" as they didn't really have any non-Muslim "friends", but that's how most of the Southerners treated me too, being from Ohio and all. (I lived in South Carolina at the time.)

 
     Wylie;
  I don't know who you are referring to whan you say some are willing to P- - - on the lost sheep, but it sure isn't myself! If you were, refer to my post #19 and re-read it. I made it clear...when I teach in classes that we are to abuse noone, but offer Jesus to everyone (the great commission). If they refuse Jesus, unlike some sects in this world, we are not required to kill them. Instead, we just turn away and leave them to their choice. God gives to every man a "free will"...
   Contrary to some ideas floated here, the Bible does not require that we keep turning the other cheek and "roll with the punches". Furthermore, we should not be so wimpy that we allow idiots to kick us around.

[ironglow]

This is why I believe everyone would be much better off if the were no religion at all.

 

  Wareagle;
   I don't like "religion" either...many bad things have been done in it's name.

[powderman]

Wylieky. Glad you and your wife had a good experience with them. Do you remember interviews with neighbors of the Godless ones who flew the planes on 9-11-01??? Some had lived here in America for years peacefully, known as nice guys by their neighbors, even having American women as girlfriends, appearing to want a better life and be like all other Americans. They were sleepers, just awaiting orders to murder and destroy. They got those orders and 3,000 innocents were murdered, all in the name of allah. I believe There are thousands like them in America right now, just patiently waiting for their chance at being martyrs for a God they worship but doesn't exist. Even their girlfriends had no clue what they were planning. I love my neices, but I know I can never again fully trust them. The cult of islam is very thorough in brainwashing their converts. You have muslims friends thats fine, but realize the type of cult you are rubbing shoulders with. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

Wylieky. Glad you and your wife had a good experience with them. Do you remember interviews with neighbors of the Godless ones who flew the planes on 9-11-01??? Some had lived here in America for years peacefully, known as nice guys by their neighbors, even having American women as girlfriends, appearing to want a better life and be like all other Americans. They were sleepers, just awaiting orders to murder and destroy. They got those orders and 3,000 innocents were murdered, all in the name of allah. I believe There are thousands like them in America right now, just patiently waiting for their chance at being martyrs for a God they worship but doesn't exist. Even their girlfriends had no clue what they were planning. I love my neices, but I know I can never again fully trust them. The cult of islam is very thorough in brainwashing their converts. You have muslims friends thats fine, but realize the type of cult you are rubbing shoulders with. POWDERMAN.  

   I would hope Wylie noticed that although those guys were good at tossing parties, they still were not likely to be "friends" with any "infidels". That is not surprising however, since such is human nature.."birds of a feather, flock together". One can visit nearly any school or factory cafeteria and alyhough desegregation is an accomplished fact..where and beside whom, do the people generally volunteer to sit and converse?

[okieshooter]

Okieshooter,,,,I only mention this to illustrate why moslems do not accept the son of God (as per Daniel 7:13 I think) and the triology which they feel is polythesist and not acceptable...'son of man' is mentioned over 100 times in the OT for example and not to be construed as Son of God. Of course, central to Christians is the belief in Son of God as part of the triology. Nonetheless, the islamics know both their OT and NT very well indeed,,,at least the clergy and intellectuals do, and as one of the 2 out of 3 Abrahamic religons that accept Jesus as a God ordained prophet, teacher, and messenger..second to Mohammed. As for any temple being rebuilt...not going to happen by counterfeiters and imposters.


..TM7
.

Ezekiel was called son of man 93 times by God himself. Prophecies of one like the son of man refer to Christ. I admit to know very little of Mohammed but can imagine putting Christ second to no one. One thing I must agree on is that the temple will not be rebuilt by counterfeiters and imposters, it will be rebuilt by christians. Even satan  can quote scriptures and make them mean what you want them to. My father always said you can take the bible and prove Jesus was a horse thief if you want to but he wasn't. It is all in interpretation and a lot of times that makes you see it the way that fits you best not the way it was intended.

[powderman]

tm. What a ridiculous post. I can just see muslims praising Jesus and baptizing in his name. Get real. Jesus Christ is alive and well in Heaven. Where is your dead false prophet mohamed? POWDERMAN. 

[scootrd]

If they refuse Jesus, unlike some sects in this world, we are not required to kill them. Instead, we just turn away and leave them to their choice. God gives to every man a "free will"...

I always struggle with this concept.. If God give man The right to choose ie: Free will...
but yet as an all knowing God he already knows what we are predestined to choose ..
Is it truly Free will ?  As an all knowing God he must know those of us who are predisposed before Birth
to not hear the word. So how is this Free will if God alreay knows the outcome.

This concept is very confusing for me personally.

Please don't make light of this .. I think about this alot and it's hard to wrap my brain around it. I go round and round in circles Trying to understand this concept.

[okieshooter]

Okieshooter....actually as I review some of this comparative religious stuff....it is almost possible that Jesus is placed higher than Mohammed...Mohammed was a revealer...teller of God's words and a bashar(mortal)....Jesus was the template and practioner and having special powers, special birth, performed miracles do to his perfection, and a special life as Messiah and never really deemed bashar. I remember traveling around Kashmir in peaceful times long ago and seeing small moslem congregations primarily worshipping Jesus and living on his words...practicing Baptism and the like.

..TM7

Almost possible??? I thought the Holy Spirit was the revealer, without the spirit there is no understanding. If indeed muslims believe Jesus to be the messiah then how can they possibly even start to think that Mohammed is more important? As for worshiping Jesus I think that would be a false religion also. You are to worship no one but God the father. In the Old testament the temple was the path to God for forgiveness, that is why it is so important to the Jews to rebuild it. Christ is the path between us and God now. To live by his words would be fine as they came from God through Jesus.

[scootrd]

Almost possible??? I thought the Holy Spirit was the revealer, without the spirit there is no understanding. If indeed muslims believe Jesus to be the messiah then how can they possibly even start to think that Mohammed is more important? As for worshiping Jesus I think that would be a false religion also. You are to worship no one but God the father. In the Old testament the temple was the path to God for forgiveness, that is why it is so important to the Jews to rebuild it. Christ is the path between us and God now. To live by his words would be fine as they came from God through Jesus.

I am of the belief God and Jesus are the same ,
God became man and died for the sins of the world.

 in Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Speaking of the Tower of Babel, God came down and said, “Let Us go down and confound the man’s language.”  

Earlier God says, “Man has become like Us, to know good and evil.”  He [man] was driven from the Garden of Eden – so God refers to Himself as plural.

You have God the Father and God the Son,

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8 )

There are many many more instances where God refers to himself in Plural

[okieshooter]

Scootrd, if you are a plumber and say to me " Let us go fix this leaky pipe" it doesn't make me a plumber too. It makes me your helper. Speaking in plural is just proof of the trilogy. Most prayers will start Dear heavenly Father and end in Christ's name I pray. To me it is praying through the Son to the Father. YMMV

[scootrd]

Scootrd, if you are a plumber and say to me " Let us go fix this leaky pipe" it doesn't make me a plumber too. It makes me your helper. Speaking in plural is just proof of the trilogy. Most prayers will start Dear heavenly Father and end in Christ's name I pray. To me it is praying through the Son to the Father. YMMV

It is Gods word .. and God uses the plural for himself.

For example :

ISA.48:16: "from the beginning from the time that it was, I was there: ( 1st person) and now the Lord GOD (2nd person) and his Spirit, (3rd person) hath sent me(1st person)."

here we have three individuals existing together, the one speaking states that he was there from before time (Jn. 1:1 ) he refers to the Lord and states that both Yahweh and his Spirit have sent me, (the speaker.) This goes perfectly in line with Isa. 6:8 God speaking to Isaiah "Who shall I send, who will go for us". Both the singular and the plural are used in the same verse.

John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”
John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.”
John 1:14 says that “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

God an Jesus are inseparable The are one and the same. (this is my belief , I believe in the Holy Trinity) others need not agree and I am perfectly fine with that , I am not here to sway others religious beliefs , opinions or affiliations as I am not swayed by theirs. We should all have the right to choose to worship how we see is correct for us as individuals. We should all learn to be more tolerant and respectful of each others beliefs. Don't have to agree , and sometimes is nice to agree to disagree agreeably.
The world would be quite boring if we were all the same. (at least in the world I choose to live in and be a part of).

There are a lot of paths through the woods that we as Christians walk with the hope we all arrive at the same ultimate destination.

Cyril of Alexandria (376 - 444 AD) says, ‘Indeed, the mystery of Christ runs the risk of being disbelieved precisely because it is so incredibly wonderful.  

For God was in humanity.  He who was above all creation was in our human condition; the invisible one was made visible in the flesh; he who is from the heavens and from on high was in the likeness of earthly things; the immaterial one could be touched; he who is free in his own nature came in the form of a slave; he who blesses all creation became accursed; he who is all righteousness was numbered among the transgressors; life itself came in the appearance of death.  All this followed because the body, which tasted death, belonged to no other but to him who is the Son by nature,’

[SHOOTALL]

I think that Islam is suffering the same thing Christianity sufferes from -  people twisting the word to suit themselves . In the case of Islam today it has created a dangerous world indeed .

[subdjoe]

  BTW: Speaking of doubting Thomases... How did the apostle Thomas refer to Jesus, immediately after he had thrust his hand into Jesus' wounded side, getting the "proof' he needed/
?

  Answer: Thomas cried ..."My lord and my God"..

We also have the Confession of St. Peter -

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

At the Feast of Theophany the Voice of the Father bears witness: 

"And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"

And again, at the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor: 

"And lo, a voice out of the cloud saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him"

[okieshooter]

 I believe in the trinity and the deity of Christ. Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one together. In my mind to worship Jesus, the man, is like worshiping Mary, it is wrong. TM7 mentioned them worshiping Jesus, that is different to me than the Trinity. I probably don't make much sense but a single God being represented by 3 spirits is hard to understand or explain sometimes. To worship one is to worship all three because they are one. My head hurts.

[scootrd]

To worship one is to worship all three because they are one. My head hurts.

As does mine

Peace be with you and those you love.

[subdjoe]

I believe in the trinity and the deity of Christ. Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one together. In my mind to worship Jesus, the man, is like worshiping Mary, it is wrong. TM7 mentioned them worshiping Jesus, that is different to me than the Trinity. I probably don't make much sense but a single God being represented by 3 spirits is hard to understand or explain sometimes. To worship one is to worship all three because they are one. My head hurts.

It is one of the great mysteries that we, in our fallen state, are unable to fully understand.  The less you try to understand it, the more you understand it.  

[powderman]

tm. You still haven't answered my question. Where is your beloved mohamed? I am reasonably sure I know, do you? POWDERMAN. 

[billy_56081]

"symbolic immersing in the blood of Christ, dying with him, and being resurrected into a new person as you believe."

Old TM we are talking baptism not communion!

Oh wait once again you come out spewing your silly lies trying to get off subject. Oh wait the sublect is " ISLAM PERMITS LYING" Are you making an admission? 

[WylieKy]

Wylieky. Glad you and your wife had a good experience with them. Do you remember interviews with neighbors of the Godless ones who flew the planes on 9-11-01???

I remember interviews with plenty of serial killers neighbors as well.     Crazies are crazy and fanatics are fanatic.  I'm afraid that I don't buy the 1 billion man conspiracy.  Most Muslims are just like most Christians, just want to be left alone to live their lives and raise they happy little Muslim kids. 

   I would hope Wylie noticed that although those guys were good at tossing parties, they still were not likely to be "friends" with any "infidels". That is not surprising however, since such is human nature.."birds of a feather, flock together". One can visit nearly any school or factory cafeteria and alyhough desegregation is an accomplished fact..where and beside whom, do the people generally volunteer to sit and converse?

I agree with you totally.  They were very friendly and polite, but there was an inner circle that was all Muslim, but as I pointed out, that is exactly how the Southerners were.  With the Southerners, I was welcomed to all company functions, but neither I nor any of the "transplants" were invited to the private bbq's, B-day parties, etc....  After work drink or two? Yea  Anything to do with the family? no.  I asked a guy I considered to be a friend, in a joking way, if I had any kids in the south if they would be Southerners, and he said 'No, just because the cat has kittens in the oven you don't call them biscuits!"  Humans are clannish creatures, and will create a way for there to be an "Us" and "Them" in pretty much any social situation.

[subdjoe]

A very interesting read

Several high power scholars, Timothy Furnish, Tawfik Hamid, Dr.  M. Zuhdi Jasser and Robert Spencer, talk about islam and moderates.  They all seem to agree that both koran and hadith command that both apostates and unbelivers be killed.  And that the "moderates" in islam make up a fairly small percentage of dar-al-islam.  Also that reform is possible, needed, but unlikely.

[ironglow]

"symbolic immersing in the blood of Christ, dying with him, and being resurrected into a new person as you believe."

Old TM we are talking baptism not communion!

Oh wait once again you come out spewing your silly lies trying to get off subject. Oh wait the sublect is " ISLAM PERMITS LYING" Are you making an admission? 

Oh, really Billie.. ...pretty snarky disinfo comment I should say....let's just take a closer look via wiki:

Baptists believe that "Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water. …It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus" [ellipsis retained from quoted text].[112] Baptists, like most other Christians who believe in baptism by total immersion, read Biblical passages[113] to imply that the practice intentionally symbolizes burial and resurrection. Especially when performed before onlookers, the total immersion ceremony depicts a burial (when the person being baptized is submerged under the water, as if buried), and a resurrection (when the person comes up out of the water, as if rising from the grave)—a "death" and a "burial" to an old way of life focused on sinning, and a "resurrection" to the start of a new life as a Christian focused on God. Such Christians typically believe that John 3:3-5 also supports this view, with its implication that water baptism symbolizes (but does not produce) a Christian being "born again" spiritually.[114]

 
A submersion baptism in Community of Christ, in Las Terrazas Beach, Pichilemu, Chile.Baptism by submersion is also practiced by the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ),[115] although the faith does not suggest rebaptism of those who have undergone a different Christian baptism tradition.[116] Baptism in Churches of Christ, which also have roots in the Restoration Movement, is performed only by bodily immersion.[117]:p.107[118]:p.124 This is based on their understanding of the meaning of the word baptizo as used in the New Testament, a belief that it more more closely conforms to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, and that historically immersion was the mode used in the first century, and that pouring and sprinkling later emerged as secondary modes when immersion was not possible.[119][120]:p.139-140

Seventh-day Adventists believe that "Baptism symbolizes dying to self and coming alive in Jesus." They practice full immersion baptism.[121]

Latter-day Saints beliefs concerning baptism state "You are briefly immersed in water, as Jesus Christ was baptized. Baptism by immersion is a sacred symbol of the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and it represents the end of your old life and the beginning of a new life as a disciple of Jesus Christ."[122] The Community of Christ also practices submersion for their baptisms.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

By the way disinfo wannabe specialists are nothing more than common liers. There is nothing wrong with baptism, just fine with me; although I find it to be a little occult,,,the communion eating of the flesh as well....but such is the nature of ritual.

Have a nice day.....TM7
.

 

  TM;
  I doubt Billy was debating the death, burial & resurrection part and the washing in water..
   But washing in blood is different, we were "blood-bought' the day Jesus died and was then resurrected..which we memorialize in communion or the "Lord's supper" wherein the  "cup' symbolizes the blood shed for us. That's what I think, but Billy may well correct me.

[gypsyman]

My wife and I were both baptized last Sunday at the church we're attending. I will not be able to make many Sunday services with my work scedule. But, I am attending a Tuesday night mens bible study. And, I'll be the first to admit, I havn't read the whole bible. But, I'm trying. Since I hav'nt read the entire book, maybe there is a passage that promote's Christians to lie, and I just hav'nt got to it yet. And, I'll also admit, I hav'nt read the Koran. But, from my learning alittle bit about it, the Islamic religion does not condemn lying to infiedels, but gives it the ok. As long as it's promoting the religion. I don't think God wants his principle's and convictions spread around with lies. I'll stick with God and Jesus Christ! gypsyman

[ironglow]

If they refuse Jesus, unlike some sects in this world, we are not required to kill them. Instead, we just turn away and leave them to their choice. God gives to every man a "free will"...

I always struggle with this concept.. If God give man The right to choose ie: Free will...
but yet as an all knowing God he already knows what we are predestined to choose ..
Is it truly Free will ?  As an all knowing God he must know those of us who are predisposed before Birth
to not hear the word. So how is this Free will if God alreay knows the outcome.

This concept is very confusing for me personally.

Please don't make light of this .. I think about this alot and it's hard to wrap my brain around it. I go round and round in circles Trying to understand this concept.

Scoot;
    Yes, God knows, but he's not telling us..then too, he can change his mind. just read the Bible, God almost invariably gives a choice!

A) He gave Adam & Eve a choice, whether to stay away from the tree.

B) He gave Abraham a choice, to sacrifice Isaac or not.

C) He allowed Lot  a choice of the grazing fields or Sodom.

D) He gave Ruth a choice to stick with Naomi or go back to Moab.

E) He permitted Rahab a choice to either turn the Israelis over or hide them on her roof.

F) God again and again gave the whole Jewish nation chances to mend their ways, failure to do so resulted into their captivity.

G) most of the prophets were given a choice to be a prophet or refuse.

H) In the New Testament..He seems more driven than ever to allow choices..each of the Apostles were such by their choice.

I) In each case, people are invited to take Jesus as Savior..but some refused, as the rich, young ruler.

J) Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the dor and knock'..He's not going to knock tyhe door down to come and get you..you must open it for yourself.

   Those are just a few examples of choices..He is all about choices.













F)

[powderman]

GYPSYMAN. I've read the Bible 3x and can find NOWHERE that God tells folks to lie, but satans handbook does. Glad you are doing the Bible study. I try to read everyday. Every time I reread the Bible I see things I missed. I read again in  EXODUS today.
IG. Good post Sir. POWDERMAN. 

[lgm270]

In High School I was assigned a report on Islam and was quite surprised by what I learned.  Islam has more in common with organized crime organizations like the Mafia  than any religion.  Islam does indeed have a dual set of ethics:  One set of ethics for dealings with other muslims and another set of ethics for  non-Muslims.  Islam does authorized deception to gain an advantage over non-muslims.  

Muslims are not here because of mass conversions of Americans but because of a treasonous immigration policy that let thousands of them come here. They have been enemies of Western Civilization for 1,200 years.  They invaded Europe and were stopped in 732 by Charles Martel at the battle of Tours, just south of Paris, France.  This was 300 years before the first Crusade.  After that Muslims continuallly attacked and enslaved white Europeans through outright war, piracy and kidnapping.   Muslims were heavily involved with Jews  in the African slave trade as well.  

As recently as  1631, Barbary Pirates from Islamic  Algeria attacked Ireland and kidnapped the entire village of Baltimore, Ireland, enslaved them and transported them back to Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore


In or about 1803, the infant United States republic had to go to war with the Barbary Pirates to stop their seizure of American ships and kidnapping and enslavement of Americans.  

More recently, in the aftermath of WW2 and Indian independence, Muslims in that country touched off a civil war with the Hindu majority that caused 1 million dead and resulted in the partition of India  and the creation of the Islamic state of Pakistan.  Even today, Pakistan and India are nuclear powers who are poised at each other's throats.  Muslims and hindus co-existed for hundreds of years in India, but the minute the British gave independence, the Muslims tried to dominate other Indians. Muslims have always tried to dominate other countries and stamp out or exact tribute from other religions. They are out enemy and sooner or later we're going to have to deal with them.  The certainly intend to deal with us.

[powderman]

tm. Is there nothing you won't say or do to show your hatred of Christians and Jews??? You didn't need to waste all that bandwidth to say it, or to show your love for your Godless brothers. I'd hate to be you on judgement day when you meet the REAL God. I have no more patience for you and your disrespect. In another thread you disrespected Jesus Christ, shame on you. Praise your allah, your loss, not mine. Sad.  :(POWDERMAN.

[scootrd]

Scoot;
    Yes, God knows, but he's not telling us..then too, he can change his mind. just read the Bible, God almost invariably gives a choice!
F)

I do read the Bible , This is exactly my point. This is a hard concept to understand.
I wont annotate all but just a few so you understand what I mean.

A) He gave Adam & Eve a choice, whether to stay away from the tree. (yes but as an Omnipotent God he already knew What they would choose do so was it really a true choice? )

B) He gave Abraham a choice, to sacrifice Isaac or not. (Yes he did but again was it a false choice ? or truly free will ? He Knew what Abraham would choose before hand.  

God is all , all powerful , All knowing, He knows the choice we will make before we make it for he has made it so since the beginning and knows the outcome at the end.  

The bible also teaches us.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:11-21

 11 - 20(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

  
There are those who are not chosen by God, who God has created to not conform  to Jesus, and who God has not chosen before time to become one with Jesus, nor even to understand Jesus. These people cannot accept the truth, because God has not chosen them as ones who will understand it.
So I hear and read what your saying IG but you can also see why I struggle try to understand the concept of Free will.
Ok my brain hurts again.

[powderman]

In regard to the forbidden fruit God said: "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen. 2:17) But the serpent said, "Ye shall not surely die." (3:4) Satan's statement proved true, God's statement proved untrue. So, according to the Bible, the first truth told to man was from the devil, and the first lie told to man was from God.



tm. Yet another of your distortions and attempts to lead folks away from the truth of Jesus and salvation. Adam and Eve did die that day, they gave up immortality, so God spoke the truth. Satan told the lie, but you already know that. The only reason I'm bothering to rebutt your deliberate attempts to distort Gods word is because I fear that your lies might actually be believed by somebody here. POWDERMAN.